Dave,<P>I am not a good at refining stuff. I am more like a mini bulldozer. So I just want to make one tiny point (think I can keep it to just one? ). <P>I have copied K's revision on one of your paragraph's:<P>"Maybe change this to:<P>Input from you about my faults, like "controlling" is very important to me. I'm trying to work on improving my behaviors, and the feedback from you is really helpful (both positive and negative). This is a reason that I've asked you to talk to my counselor---he hasn't lived with me. I have been trying hard to overhaul my self so I can be a better person---both as a husband to you and as a father to <son>"<P>*******************<P>Here is my take: <P>Please note the piece about the 'counselor ---he hasn't lived with me ....'. This is true, now make that a positive statment. How about...... "the counselor --- does not know me as well as you have. And I have been trying 'so' hard to overhaul myself 'in order' to be a better person--both as a husband to you and as a father to 'our' <son>." <P>I replaced a few words and notated the new ones in ' '. <P>Isn't it like writing a report and having everyone critique you with a red pen? <P>You are doing good. I am so proud of you. Make sure you have some lunch today. Oops, it is already past that in your part of the country. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

wat...I am trying to be open minded about the control issue. Maybe it doesn't matter, but she never raised this issue before. <P>snl....Clearly I am at a disadvantage knowing almost nothing about your wife. But I do believe it is not unusual for folks to not complain about such things (or even understand them vs the emotional reaction to stuff), particularly if your wife is more of a conflict avoider too, or a peace maker. Nobody is all anything, relationships are a complex interaction of stuff, and hard to unravel, plz forgive me if I imply this is as simplistic as dave is a controller nyah nyah nyah nyah. No doubt your wife has many issues too.<P>wat...I honestly don't know if I'm over bearing or not. My initial reaction would be that she's the controlling one. She had the strong will and the way of treating me like what I did was never good enough. <P>snl...well first off as males, we are obligated to "pull" our punches with women, cause our mere existence projects power and control to some extent, this is very hard sometimes for males to grasp. An interaction between you and I may be no big deal, even if aggressive, but it would be a whole different ball game if I were a woman and we had the identical interaction. It could be your wifes "control" was a compensation for your overt projections of power. By attacking your self-esteem she sought to cut you down to size. Is a viscious cylce of quid pro quo, someone has to break it, and you were elected (or rather she assigned the job to you via the affair). BTW it is almost a canon in the controllers book (part of the series which includes the ws handbook), to blame the recipient of verbal abuse for "causing" it. I could be completely wrong, and maybe you are the victim here, but I gotta tell you, you sound nothing like a controlled person, you project power right and left, all over the place, all throughout your posts. You strike me as very verbal, and very adept at verbal sparring, it is only a short walk across the line to being verbally abusive when you have those kinds of skills, always for their own good doncha know.<P>wat...I could never please her in the later years. Anyway, maybe you're right. How can we tell?<P>snl...No need to tell, you change yourself, do the best you can, and see what happens. Your circumstances are somewhat similar to mine, I can outargue most anyone, and my poor wife hasn't a chance. So I have had to learn to self-discipline myself, and be scrupulously fair, not easy to do when God has appointed you the keeper of the "truth". So she accuses me of being a controller, but I am not, but I push the line. OTOH, she is an emotional controller (for reasons having nothing to do with me), she gets her way by keeping me emotionally off balance, by never being really sure I am loved or good enuf, or can trust her emotionally. So I closed up, learned to protect myself from that pain, and eventually the inevitable happened, the marriage died. Being alone, I um..... dated I guess, and here I am.<P>Perhaps in your case, you pushed a little harder than me, your wife responded in a predictable fashion (if she has some spunk), and you had a taker war marriage, until she finally through in the towel and left. It seems pretty much the rule that few troubled marriages actually understand very well what happened, and hence the confusion on both bs and ws part about whether to continue on. Enter the harleys, plan a, b as last resort, read the stuff, get into harley counselling for at least a while, and let there techniques have a chance to work, and if not, everyone leave amicably. So IMO, the goal should be to get your w to "try" a period of this, and anything contentious obstructs that goal.<P>

Thanks everyone. It's gone.<P>Some final answers to questions/suggestions:<P>after shock - the "dividing up belongings" is very non-specific in our separation agreement. Neither one of us will get everything we want. To be honest, I can't imagine where she will put stuff.<P>SNL - on my use of "power words." This could be a result of my work as an engineer in a regulatory environment where I do most of my writing. That said, my non-work friends have always remarked that I'm too much of a pushover to be a harda$$ regulator.<P>To all, if my wife is as determined to end our marriage as she seems to be, why has she not even tried to work on it? Is it really amazing, or is it just me, that she has not been willing to even fake it with a counselor? Even one of her own choosing?<P>I am very willing to believe that I've been a subtle control freak, but none of our close friends/relatives who know us both have suggested this is a problem. Everybody, including her own sisters, points to her as the main problem. I have searched myself for ways to relieve her stress with me. Seems each time I fixed one thing, something else took its place.<P>I may never understand.<P>WAT

Let us know how it goes, or if we can help with the next one. (((((((pat on the back.<P>Hang in there. We may have all jumped to the "control" conclusion based on one letter. You're doing great! Don't give up on your W yet. If she is reacting differently now (longer letter this time), perhaps she IS seeing something different in you - and maybe it's for the better. Keep on your path. Time will tell.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B><BR>I may never understand.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BINGO! <P>You did good, Dave. You're also a wonderful student, listening and absorbing all that is being thrown at you.<P> <P>

Hi Dave....<P>Good Lord! What a thread.<P>I'm sorry I wasn't available to respond or help with any of this. I read everything and all of K's input is right on the money. That last email revision is the one I'd use. <P>To me your wife's email sounded like she was responding defensively, but trying to be business-like at the same time. I think her defensive attitude may be because she feels like she's in a battle with you now. We don't want that, do we?. And I think you should be the one to defuse any feelings of a war going on, by being nice in any contact that you are forced to have with her. <P>Don't you want her to know and feel that if the possiblity of coming home and working on the marriage crosses her mind, it'll be a safe place and decision to make? No LBs ...<P>Hang in there Dave, and keep letting us critique your correspondence to her, cuz I know myself all too well how easy it is to LB when you're so emotional and hurt.<P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 01, 2001).]

well like I said, I may be completely wrong, but here are a few more random musings.<P>wat...on my use of "power words." This could be a result of my work as an engineer in a regulatory environment where I do most of my writing. That said, my non-work friends have always remarked that I'm too much of a pushover to be a harda$$ regulator.<P>snl...could be true, is something of a regular problem for folks with authoritative jobs, to leave that hat at work.<P>wat....To all, if my wife is as determined to end our marriage as she seems to be, why has she not even tried to work on it? Is it really amazing, or is it just me, that she has not been willing to even fake it with a counselor? Even one of her own choosing?<P>snl...She just figures it is a lost cause, and why bother, that was pretty much my mindset. For some of us, when it is over, it is over. My wife was unwilling to agree to a divorce so in my sense of fairplay I (dutifully) went to counselling, pastors, retrovaille, etc. but what kept happening was my wife would act "nice" then revert back to same stuff, so I never developed any enthusiasm for reconcilliation. Coercion of any kind is not going to work, guilt, vows, children, (ours are mostly grown), force of argument etc, fell on deaf ears, I already knew all this. Plus she still would not listen to me. I wanted to talk about my feelings, about what is marriage, why should we be married, etc. it just made her sad or mad. And she kept talking about how awful all this was to her, how it was killing her, how could I throw her away after 23 years, etc. etc.... fell on deaf ears, and just made me more determined to get this over with as painlessly as possible. Told her she could have everything, house, money, alimony, whatever, just let me go, still wasn't enuf. Finally after a few months, she started coming here (I showed her the place, she is "thinker"). And we called the harleys, read books, etc.... gradually she started backing off, listening, and changing her behaviour. That is the only thing that has got my attention. I don't know where it will all end, cause I am not going back to the old marriage, no way, but I will give this a chance. I have to surmise that your wife sees no differences in you (right or wrong), and is fearful of being sucked back in. My wife did this overtly and through actions, interpreted anything positive on my part as meaning I was making a new committment to her... I DID NOT want to give her false hope (a common problem with bs behaviour), so I would retreat. Maybe this is also an issue for your w. There is also the concern over losing the op, most of us realize we cannot work on m ethically unless we completely give up op, that is a big emotional risk to take for an uncertain outcome. If I could talk to your wife I could maybe deal with that, is unlikely you will be able too, is a difficult area..... hmm, maybe I should write that up for the ws guidebook, it took me a lot of hard work to come to grips with it, but there are good reasons to seperate from the op even if you truly love each other. I don't think your wife realizes that. Future happiness with the op is in large part dependent on how you leave your current marriage. But for many ws the op is the excuse, the strength to leave the current m, even if they ultimately do not stay with op.<P>wat...I am very willing to believe that I've been a subtle control freak, but none of our close friends/relatives who know us both have suggested this is a problem. Everybody, including her own sisters, points to her as the main problem. <P>snl...If your w has a personality disorder, and it is about control, then you have a choice, let her control you, or accept she is not marriage material. It is rare for one who is that far gone to be able to change significantly. My wife is borderline, she seems to have the capacity to change (although it took a 2x4 to get her attention), it is interesting to watch her, and somehow it is affecting me.<P>wat...I have searched myself for ways to relieve her stress with me. Seems each time I fixed one thing, something else took its place.<P>snl...this sounds suspicious, are you always trying to "solve" problems, and maybe simply not just being there for your wife, letting her be, listening to her, seeing her? But then again dave, I don't believe every marriage is worthy, I do believe people must fit, and maybe you two just don't fit, and instead of positive synergy, you have negative synergy.<P>wat...I may never understand.<P>snl...me either. Don't even understand myself all that well, everyone else is mostly a fogbank, with occassional breaks of sunlight.<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 01, 2001).]

wat's wife...Please do not try to be controlling. I recall mentioning to you that I was working over <son's> birthday (the end of the week) so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that after you had him all weekend that I would pick him up on Monday. <P>snl... feels like she wants you listen more, and not be critical of her.<P>ww...Furthermore, <au pair> was not home over the weekend to tell her about the plans and because I can't speak to you, who was I supposed to tell? Just like when your computer was down, so is mine at home. I asked <son> to have <au pair> to call me. He didn't and she didn't. <P>snl...sounds like you when you were "explaining" son not being ready, only she isn't as good at it, and probably hates defending herself anyways (I did).<P>ww...I don't need to talk to you about anything but <son>, but it's essential that we talk about things concerning his health, happiness, etc. Please don't be so self-centered and selfish as to refuse to communicate about <son>.<P>snl....*sigh* sounds like you both use son to diminish the other. She is just being nasty, I did this too. But she is also asserting her independence from you and what you want.<P>ww....Furthermore, it is not up to you to dictate to me about any schedule with <son>. The object is to work together and have as little conflict as possible. I have not been rude to you and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.<P>snl....Loud and clear, quit telling me what to do, I am not your child.<P>ww....I have always asked if my request is workable. I will have the proposed schedule to you today through <au pair>. Remember, there might be times that you need me to be flexible, so don't shoot yourself in the foot.<P>snl...an olive branch of sorts, I would acknowledge it.<P>ww...Next, when I did pick <son> up to take him to camp, he came to the car in a pair of your pants which were too short, a horribly wrinked shirt, had not washed or brushed anything, and had not eaten. <Son> was visibly upset because he could not find any clothes and <au pair> didn't know where any were. I talked to <au pair> about it and she said she has a hard time figuring out <son's> clothes from yours. <P>snl....she is using a legitmate gripe (of sorts) to take you down a peg or two. Probably to diminish your power over her (in her mind). She is trying to emotionally disconnect from you dave, and when you argue this stuff you are validating that effort.<P>ww....I asked her to have <son> put his clothes in his basket and to wash them separately. Then <son> can put them away so he knows where they are. She also said she can't tell your underwear from his. Maybe you can help her. <Son> needs to find his clothes so he looks presentable. If <au pair> can't handle both your and <son's> laundry, maybe you would consider washing your own clothes. Many times, <son> has dirty clothes and is dirty himself. Between the two of you, I'm sure you can solve these problems.<P>snl....An effort to problem solve with you, I doubt you get many opportunities, should jump at this chance.<P>ww...I gave you an itemized bill and $2000 as payment for whatever because you said I owe you money. I am trying to keep up but I need a monthly itemized bill just as you do. I will provide you one monthly after I receive my bank statement and I will pay <au pair> at the beginning of each month so you don't have that debt.<P>snl....I dunno, but sounds like she really isn't a money person, and is trying to cooperate with you, almost like she misses you taking care of stuff, and she does not want to be a burden. Another chance to make points with her by validating her efforts by HER standards, not yours.<P>ww...I will also provide you a copy of my retirement accounts which per our agreement is ? due today and I suppose I will receive the same from you so we can adjust the accounts per the agreement.<P>snl...she doesn't like any of this dave, and she misses you. But she will not tell you this cause she is scared to trust you, but it is between her words, IMO.<BR> <BR>ww...The agreement also says that we need to divide our things. Do you have suggestions? I will arrange a mover at the earliest convenience. It might be better while you are away with <son>.<P>snl....?????? You say she is a controller? And she makes statements lie this, I don't think so dave. Compare this to how you would (normally) have said the same thing.<P>Are you leaving on Sunday or can I take him to early church?<BR><Wife><P>snl...ditto<P><BR>Well for what it's worth, I see someone who is still willing to try with you, maybe even wants to try, and is feeling pushed away, and hopeless. She has to feel that way for a reason dave. And I sure hope you have not pointed out (in any way) how everyone thinks she is the problem (her sisters and all). I think she is attracted by and values your ability to be organized and get things done, now if you can only make it clear you love her more than you love being right (assuming you do)....then perhaps.... but what do I know.<P>disclaimer...I stuck my neck out here on little information. But I saw nothing contentious, hurtful, spiteful, or uncaring in this email, quite the opposite in fact. If you are down to the last gasp here, try and give up control, all of it, everybit, you got nothing to lose and everything to gain. I suspect you have not really done that throughout this ordeal. You always had to be in charge as much as possible, for your own sanity (and that is understandable). But that means you are even managing your disconnection from wife, still in charge, not vulnerable. She needs to know you can be vulnerable, and you need her, not just her presence, but her mind, her help, her partnership. That you value her, for her, not for you...do you see? And if I am all wet, just ignore this stuff, sometimes I talk too much. But I will tell you this, what is attracting me too my wife is not her needs for me, not her arguments, not her uphappiness, but when she just lets go of everything and is focused on me for me. [well duh, takers paradise huh ] maybe harleys do know what they are talking about. I know it cannot be this one-sided way forever, but that she is willing to send her taker away for awhile is interesting. Cause if I don't respond she will be hurt even more, that she is willing to risk that tells me something important. <BR>

Dave:<P>To reiterate: you may never truly understand. Ditto the BINGO ... as a former BS, there is much I will never truly understand (because it ended in divorce before finding Dr. Harley's work and this site).<P>The only thing that remains, then, my friend, is to take the knowledge gained and grow. (Which, IMHO, you have done in leaps and bounds and you serve as a shining example to others here, me included.) It is my hope, and the hope of everyone here (don't take offense anyone for "speaking" for you) that the final result of this will be the restoration of your marriage.<P>But in the end you win, Dave. You win if your marriage is retored. You win even if that isn't the case: your growth as a human being is a win regardless of marital outcome.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>My wife was unwilling to agree to a divorce so in my sense of fairplay I (dutifully) went to counselling, pastors, retrovaille, etc. but what kept happening was my wife would act "nice" then revert back to same stuff, so I never developed any enthusiasm for reconcilliation.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here's the big difference between snl and my wife. For years she refused to work on our marriage. Of course, during this time we were trying to save my son's life, so that took top priority. Nonetheless, she found the strength to go to graduate school to get another degree in parallel. Then within 10 months after he died, the non-affair started. She has not had a similar sense of "fairplay." This is what is so frustrating for me. I don't even rate the decency of an explanation except the standard WS mantra - "I love you, but I'm not in love with you. I'm in love with OM, but I'm not having an affair. I don't think I can get the feelings back for you."<P>I'm starting to get bitter.<P>Dave

{{{{{{{Dave}}}}}}}<P>Please don't get bitter. Fight being a bitter person, because it will only hurt you.<P>I was never given a chance either, many of us BS aren't. By the time the WS are in their A, they are so deep in the fog of selfishness they've convinced themselves they have been working on the marriage all along, so why should they try any more, why beat a dead horse attitude. <P>On D day my H actually asked me why I wasn't happy for him that he found someone he truly loves, asked me didn't I want him to be happy .. ughhh.<P>The only reason my H went to counseling the few times that he did, was because he said he was helping me get thru the transition, that he owed it to me. To me that felt like sympathy.<P>I know we deserved a chance, I know our marriages deserve a chance, but we can't make them try. Even if they did try wih the attitude they have now, it wouldn't be sincere. <P>I think SnL is a special case. I think SnL is really willing to explore and see if his marriage is salvageable, to look at every avenue for his options, I think he respects marriage and I think he still loves and respects his wife. I think he knows he doesn't have all the answers and wants to learn. I think he is the excpetion WS, not the rule.<P>We're here for you Dave, please don't hurt. Don't let it consume you. <P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 01, 2001).]

wat:<BR>Do you want me to hit your W for you? I will!! <P>You have so much to offer. Give this some more time, ok? It's not over yet, so don't give up, and don't give in to bitterness and hopelessness. <P>We're here. Vent if you want to. We don't mind Let us have it!!

Dave:<P>Bitterness is a natural human emotion. I still feel some of that towards my exW, even now after learning and practicing MB philosophy. But you are venting most of that here, which is a good thing. Bitterness held in is poison to the mind and spirit.<P>Plan B is partially for countering feelings such as that: trying to preserve the love that remains. All-in-all, the course you have taken, the growth you have exhibited are once again proof of the MB concepts in action.<P>So vent the bitterness here, we will see it for what it is and commiserate, etc. For there are things to learn from that as well.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hey Dave - me again....<P>Plan B is to preserve what love you have left for your wife. You went to Plan B because you were starting to feel bitter. When you have contact with wife make sure that it is benign. Don't try to teach her any lessons about herself or you. Don't be combative. Try a little southern charm from when you were down here . You can be firm with out being controlling or angry. This way she will feel more comfortable with the prospect of returning to her marriage and you won't be stressing over angry exchanges or power plays.

Dave,<P>Bitterness is hard on the digestive tract and worse on the soul. It is better not to be bitter (say that 10 times) !!<P>Spit it out, Dave. Get that out of you. I can't ask you what it will take because if you had the power to do it, I know you would. Let's help you work with what you do have going for you. <P>1. Your loving sons <BR>2. Your health<BR>3. Your wealth and work<BR>4. Your family and friends<BR>5. This site and all your supporters<BR>6. Your sense of humor and love of life<BR>7. Your laughter and smile<BR>8. Taz<BR>9. Your respect<BR>10. Your love for your family<BR>11. Your honor<BR>12. Your trust<BR>13. Your values<BR>14. Your loyalty<BR>15. Your dignity <BR>16. Your adventerous spirit ..... and so much more. <P>You do have a lot going for you. In many cases more than most. All in all, Dave the hurt, pain and bitterness you are living through is temporary. We all have to remind ourselves of this because otherwise it would be more devastating than we can handle. <P>One day you will look back and wonder how you made it through it all. In a sense you can already do that and see where you have progressed to in your stage in life. Be proud of that Dave. We are. I am. <P>Remember your love for life and adventure. Don't loose it. You have so much to teach your son. <P>Oh yea, one more thing.... you have those little dogs. Be kind to them ok? <P>L. <BR>

I know this is going to sound trite, but I have noticed in several threads a recurring idea that, well, scares me!<P>There are some wonderful, wonderful people here that have been brought together by tragic circumstances. The strength that belies the lives of those on this site is amazing. But, like so many Doctors, being the Dr. and being the patient are totally different. <P>My point is that, in defense of the BS, in the love you have for your spouse, your home, your kids, your marriage, your values, your career, your family, your friends....in all the relationships built over the years with the marriage, God, family, community...you have all lost site of the most important relationship...YOU, yourself!! <P>I see some of the most wonderfully dynamic people here....loving, giving, passionate, compassionate, sincere, strong, powerful, honest, caring to a fault!! I see people in here willing to reach out to others in pain, no matter what it costs them, no matter what time of the day or nite, to be there to support, comfort, lend a hand, without complaining, expecting, demanding anything in return!! I see people that have been cheated on, dragged through the mud, beat up emotionally/physically/mentally, trashed, had things taken from them, and still stand tall in the face of all that is going on. <P>Do not forget who you are. Do not let the M, or failure of Plan A/Plan B, loss of Emotional Needs being met, lack of SF, or anything else lead to you not believing in who you are. You are some of the strongest people I have ever had the pleasure to call my friends! You have shown more compassion and caring for me, and others, in our lives, than some of my *family* members have! You have been non-judgemental to those that have hurt you, as well as others that have done wrong. You have shown people the right path to walk. See yourself in the mirror and face the day knowing who you are, what you stand for, and know that there are others in here that get up everyday just to see your name in a post to see if you answered or how you are!! Do not lend yourself to bitterness, shame, anger, and hatred. You are way to far beyond that!! You may not like all that goes on in your life, but stand up tall knowing that you are a good, kind, and decent person, one that deserves the best that life has to offer, and you will get it. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but you will get it through love and perseverance!!<P>I am sorry for rambling but Im sitting here with tears in my eyes as I see friends like Dave, Mo, Jo, Faith, Miss Priss, LoveMess, and countless others give up on themselves due to someone else giving up on them. I dont mean by giving up on yourself that you are committing suicide or anything, but losing yourself and who you are, letting the relationship speak for who you are, getting so wrapped up in the marriage that you let the marriage define who you are!! The marriage is not you and you are not the marriage! You are a person worth knowing, worth loving, worth befriending. <P>Dont give up on you....dont ever give up on you!!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined.*<P>Trueheart

I think it is a waste of time to attempt to infer the emotional state of someone from their written communication, primarily because you never can know who wrote it. Certainly after all the editing of your response to your wife, it no longer contained any sign of the emotions you felt. I don't think you should infer from the business like tone of your wife's email that she is in any way "done" - I think if it does not sound like your wife, it is likely someone less emotionally involved wrote it or edited it.<P>For 25 years my H's writing style has been short and telegraphic. Writing a letter was like pulling teeth for him. Many of his emails are still that way. Coincidentally(?), the emails with a business like tone are long, and made up of long, complex sentences, with hardly a misspelled word. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who wrote them.<P>

OK snl, what do I say to her?<P>WAT

WAT, what great replies. As usual, I learn so much reading the reponses.<P>SInce the letter is gone (did I get that right?).. I'll just comment, or at least add to, some of the other suggestions.<P>Do try to keep out of the "war" stance. It is difficult, because, as I've mentioned before, it seems to me that "they" want a war. <P>The control issue is a great one to debate. I know my H has mentioned it, which to me (and even his family) is pretty funny, because if he thinks I am controlling he is in big trouble. BTW... sometimes I think the control comes in with us...because they are so out of control and can;t really figure out what the heck is the problem.<P>See, that's where the DB stuff differs from MB... If you read the mid life crisis board... there is a lot of "let em go" stuff. Set your own boundaries, but give them their freedom to figure "it all" out.<P>Also, whoever mentioned not losing yourself in the whole process makes a great point. We can't let any relationship, marraige, etc. etc. define who we are. Hopefully, we let the person with the real power define that, but we have to spend time with Him to remember that.<P>I've been reading the Max Lucado book "You Are Special" to my kids nightly... but I think I'm reading it to myself as well!!!!!!

Wow, Dave... I'm sorry I haven't been around much lately. Although you got some incredibly brilliant responses. I must say that I was prepared to absolutely HATE SnL's comments, but his were some of the most brilliant, I think.<P>Just when I think this forum is falling apart at the seams, people come together like this in rapid and complete support for one of "our own" - I'm really happy to see this kind of response. You are a good man, Dave - maybe someday your wife will realize what she is doing/has done.<P>Patience and strength to you.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>