what to say? Talk about putting someone on the spot dave. I am severely hampered here cause I know next to nothing about your wife, and that disturbs me when giving actual advice (as opposed to my impressions, or my experiences). I mostly react to your presence, and try to work backward to how your wife may be feeling, a somewhat imprecise way to go about this. You have a strong presence, maybe you are controlling maybe not, but you feel powerful, I have to think your wife must value that. My wife is a terrific worker, give her a task it get done, she is a self-starter too, I really appreicate all that, and our life would be a disaster without her (I am not that way).....yet I am still willing to leave her....why? Cause I feel unloved (due to criticsims, disrespect, anger, etc.). Just now she came in and chewed me out for posting so much to day. In the past would have been another crappy exchange. But due to MB and such, she backed off, and we talked a bit about what she does and what I do, and how I like to write, and express myself, and how I don't feel valued when she says I wasted the whole day. To her mind, I have wasted the day, and that is ok with me, as long as I know she values me anyways, and will accept this. She said ok, but your dinner will be cold if you delay much longer, I said that is ok, in the past she would have used that to mean I don't care about her, but what she would really be doing is trying to control me to come eat when she wants me too, for my own good, anyways I digress (should put that on control thread). So what is the point? That dave has cause me to have a cold dinner.<P>I don't know how far gone your marriage is, or how committed she is to om, but I will take a stab at last ditch efforts here, don't hold it against me plz.<P>wife, I know you were not happy with me, and I have been trying hard to make changes, maybe that works for you, maybe it does not. I know I have been intense sometimes, and combative, and I apologize for that, I don't want to make you do anything you do not choose. I have a favor to ask you, assume for a moment that we could be happy together, how would that look? Would you describe what you would need to feel and see happen? If that were possible would it be worth a trial to see? I think it is worthwhile for all of us, you, me, and son to make absolutely sure we cannot be happy. You be the judge, if you try this I agree you can leave anytime you want, without anymore complaint, anger, etc. You set the limits, you make the rules, I will only give what input you ask for, is totally up to you. I suggest we use the MB principles (and counseling, use jennifer if gender is an issue), they protect you completely, and have worked for many hopeless couples, we have nothing to lose by trying, and everything to gain. As for om, is your choice, but any real effort would need your undivided attention, and if he values you and your happiness he will wait. I value your happiness and I will let you go in peace, no anger, no guilt, just my wish for your happiness. If he won't wait, or pressures you, seems you might wonder whether he is concerned about your happiness or his. I am concerned about yours. All I ask is that you think about it, and let me know, in the meantime I am not going to bicker with you anymore. I am just gonna try and do best I can for son, and let you be to do whatever you think is right for you.<P>or something to that effect, but don't say it if you don't mean it, in effect you are giving this up to God. And if I am out of line, off base, or violating MB stuff, just ignore me.