GC,<BR>It's hard as HECK to avoid getting into those discussions! Much less, figure out how to handle it or get out of it once you're there! I look back at my discussions JUST LIKE THAT (are we all following a script or something??) and wonder HOW I could've done it differently or what would have happened if I HAD done it differently. I don't know? Maybe H wouldn't have moved out? I don't know. Maybe things wouldn't be all that different. <P>Technically, snl is right. But I don't want you to kick yourself too hard (just a little ) ok?? It's hard to do this. next time, ask her how she is (like you did), but if she starts to blame things on you <B>She told me that she felt like a piece of property and that I always got my way. </B> and turn the conversation into "he said / she said" again, try to steer it into something else to avoid LBs. "I'm sorry that I made you feel that way, and you know I'm doing everything I can to show you that, and to make things right." Don't keep asking her why she feels that way. SHe thinks she has already told you 1000 times, and if you keep asking, she will never think you are changing. THen try to change the subject. "Do you have a busy day at work tomorrow? How's work going? " <P>Just some suggestions. And I still say (and I think you said Steve said also) that you should NOT bring up the OM confrontation unless she does.<P>Hang in there.

Re the telling of om incident (as you know I think you did good having the confrontation), this is an opportunity to make her feel safe (although you have sabotaged that with your obvious attempt to gain moral high ground over her in last conversation, for which I have already chewed you out on her behalf).<P>First I would call her as soon as possible, make abject apologies for your last phone conversation, and not listening to her (eventually she hung up.....arrgghhh, she was talking to you and you drove her away). After redoing the phone conversation (and I am sure many can give you advice)...try whatever to make a few love deposits, and soon as possible, tell her you have something you need to tell her, and would she like to go out to dinner or something. Tell her it is not anything about her, but something about you, and you intend to practice what you preach (MB), and let her know something about her. This may intrigue her, and hopefully she will feel safe, cause it is about you. Try to have a good time, and then confess.... tell her how much you love her, and may not act appropriately but are learning, but need to protect her, and that whether she stays with you are not the om will hurt her, he is not going to leave his family etc, and you confronted him. Tell her you are telling her exactly what happened, you realize she may run to him and try to make-up, that she may hate you, but you value the honesty and are determined to fess up, knowing full well she may really be angry at you. Tell her you will answer any questions she asks, about details or your state of mind.......and DO NOT answer in terms of her, but of you. <P>My wife hired a detective (much to my surprise) and did not tell me for awhile, but when she did I was not angry, (of course she didn't blackmail anyone either), I understood her motivations. I think, if you handle this right, your wife will be ok, even feel protected (allthough she may not say), and you have a tremendous opportunity to put into play the powerful tool of radical honesty, which makes you vulnerable if done correctly (but I would listen closely to harley advice), timing and delivery are important, much better you tell than om. One thing though, if she were to capitalize on this and ask you to give up video, or promise never to tell, I wouldn't. You have every right to protect your family, even if she feels you are wrong, and this is about you too, not just her. My wife wanted to call owh at first, I threatened her with immediate divorce(and later apologized cause was inappropriate). Asking instead to give her time to tell......well the ow hasn't, and w is not going to wait any longer, so he will find out soon, and her life is going to be he**, and she is terrified, and I feel awful, but I understand is my w choice, not mine, she is now part of the secret and she does not want to be.<P>You might say the same, he needs to tell, and as long as we are making reasonable efforts to take one last hard, fair, look at our marriage (which means no contact) you are willing to trust her, and not reveal. Noting that yes, this is sort of controlling, but it is ok, that if she were going to go by drugs, or rob a bank, you would interfere too, some interference is acceptable is just way life works.

SNL, you have great wisdom and insight. I appreciate your thoughts and ideas. I think I will call my wife and let her know that I am sorry for the conversation we had re: moral judgements. I try to do the right thing then my emotions take over my mind and things get way out of hand. I just hope that for all those our there following this thread that you will learn from this experiance and SNL's insights to how this can change the dynamics of Plan A and the MB principles. <P>In a way, I feel like a higher power provided me the opportunity to be in that place at that very time when OM came walking along. I also feel that God gave the the wisdom to say what was right and not let my anger control my actions, which could have lead to bad things for the doc.<BR>He must think about what I've said and if he's any man of character he will think through the consequences of his actions and posible future actions. I pray that he makes the right decision for everyones sake.<P>When and if she ever confronts me about talking to him, I will say that my family is worth fighting for and I could not live with myself if I just rolled over and let my family break apart. She needs to know my love for her and how much I'm willing to fight for us. Do you all agree?<P>One last thing, if nothing happens in two weeks, do I follow up on my sending his W the video????

I will try to comment more later (have to go to work), but yes, don't know if two weeks is right for sure, but I do think we all have a civic duty to be our brothers keeper re affairs, and someone needs to tell her (but how is very important, should be done compassionately). I disagree that revealing (by bs) is ever a LB, although how it is revealed could be (vindictiveness is a big no no). IMO any ws who uses revealing as a LB to them is full of crap, and I wouldn't worry much about it, is only symptamatic of deeper problems with ws anyways, and further IMO a ws would never leave a marriage cause bs revealed it. They may in fact leave, and say that, but they are lieing, would just be an excuse, not the real reasons. I knew the instant the words left my mouth....you tell and I will leave right now.... I was lieing, that I wouldn't, not for that reason, and that it was pretty yucky of me to even say that to her. The telling of such, by a bs is sooooooooooooooo right that it transcends even the foggiest ws brain's perception as a LB. But it is a tactical decision and needs to have a lot of thought go into how it is done to gain maximum effect on your ws, and minimize any so-called LB. You absolutely do not want the ws to feel you are trying to force them back into marriage, and that feeling has a lot to do with how you tell.<P>One other thing about acting protectively (like you did, and similar stuff)....... we are watching, and we do like being fought for (as opposed to owned). It intrigued me my wife felt strongly enuf to hire a private detective, she said cause she was worried about me, and how maybe I was being decieved.... our relationship was pretty sour, and I am not alltogether convinced that was quite true, but that she was desperate enuf to do this, (and other things, like sneakily getting my cell phone bills, sweet talking her way past the pw with cust svc, etc,), felt actually kinda good in a strange way. I am not so sure those of you who think all snooping and such is a LB are quite right, it is how you go about it that counts. She was actually focused on me, even if in this manner, and that was important to me, one who has felt neglected and un-loved for a very long time.<P>ps re wisdom and insight.......hmmm, I have plenty of insight, obtained the hard way, use it for what it is worth, as for wisdom, I think my actions belie being particularly wise, in fact one could make a good case for being a complete idiot. But if I am anything it is sincere, and I love the ow alot (and have been honest with w re these feelings, which is very very hard to do, for both of us), I don't do anything half way. But I also know it cannot be, so does she, and we ended it (well actually my wife ended it as it was taking me a little to long in her opinion (5 months of stopping), she talked to ow and told her not to talk to me anymore and nary a peep since..... but it was done anyways, I was a little annoyed but hey...it was time. So any wisdom you see has come about the hard way, however I have always been interested in human behaviour, so have decades of contemplation about why we (people) do what we do, and that has helped with this. I also am self-employed and deal with people in their homes alot, so have had a lot of opportunity to observe (and listen to their stories) life. Guess you could say I am an armchair psychologist, as well as penchant for philosophy, be careful, I can spin a good line, but I am most definitely not always right. I was convinced good friends could be intimate friends, because that is what I wanted, and I made a heck of an argument for it, but I was um....... mistaken. <p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 06, 2001).]

I think you have got the phone call situation figured out and you know what you need to do. I hope it goes well. She really needs reassurance right now, I am sure, and so do you. If done correctly, this phone call can really help improve things. But don't stress on it too much - keep it light.<P>As far as the Telling of the Incident - if Dr Harley thinks it best to keep it from her for now, then I will go with him. If she does find out about the incident, then your plan seems sound. Tell her you love her and your family too much to not fight for it. Admit you probably didn't handle it the best way, but that you don't regret making the stand. <P>As for your threats to the OM, it is probably best to hold true to your threats, or he may see it as a weakness and move in on your wife even more. But opening that can of worms right now might not be the best thing, so... I think you need to talk to him again. Others can comment on this course of action. If you do follow up on your ultimatum, then the OM's W will most likely not keep quiet about it and the whole thing can blow up, really bad. <P>Don't just let the two weeks come and go, though. He needs to know you still mean it, but that you have good intentions and have no desire to destroy his family if you don't have to.<BR>

GM/SNL, I will make the call after she gets back from counseling today, too bad I couldn't get her prior. However, I think your right about the OM and following through. I did call him and asked him what it felt like to have two weeks left and hung the phone up before he had a chance to respond. The other questions I have is this, in my conversation last night with my W, I asked her if her counselor knew about the A and she got real defensive. This makes me think that her counselor does not know and that may be way she is feeding her with this self rightous garbage and do what is right for you. I tracked down (though cell phone bill) her counselors number and was thinking......I made annyomous call to her and told her that my W was in an A, it might change the way she is counseling. The counselor could never bring it up, b/c of ethics and such. Would this be good or bad?

I think it is a bad idea. JMO

It would be REAL obvious to your wife who told her counselor if you decided to do that. Don't do it, man. You're panicing... calm down, take a deep breath and back off a bit. Don't think about it too much. Just do what you need to do and that's it.

GM your right, I am in a panic and this is driving me crazy. When do the days get shorter? No human should ever have to endure this emotional torture. I think that adultry should be treated like murder. Why can't our society wake up and see this is causing so much pain and hurting. Our movies, tv and media glamorize this crap and it shold stop!<BR>I'm I alone here??

Amen, gc! I'm with you.<P>I was thinking last night... when you buy a house, you can't just decide one day that you don't want it and walk away. When you have a baby, you really can't (although some do) just walk away when you're tired. When you sign a contract on ANYTHING - pest control, cable service, ANYTHING, you can't just walk away!!! Why do some people think marriage is something you can just walk away from?

gdc:<P>OK. Deep breath. Step back and clear the brain.<P>You had your OM confrontation, just as many other BS's have. For good or ill, what is done is done.<P>As for follow-up on OM. As a BS, his wife does have a right to know (a topic that has been covered here many times). So, since you struck a "bargain" ... if he hasn't complied in two weeks, tell the OM's wife. Don't send the video, however--IMHO that will be a devastating blow far beyond just learning about her H's betrayal of her marriage.<P>If she asks for a copy of the video, fine, that is a different matter. Just forewarn her that it is extremely graphic, etc.<P>Now, as for you: dust yourself off and start Plan A-ing your butt off. Show her that you are trying to meet her emotional needs; show her that you (via MB) have come to see what marriage, and how it works, in a different light.<P>You know the drill. The material, advice, and support are all here. Roll up the sleeves and get to work.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

F1, thank you so much, we should start some kind of awareness group re: this subject. It's just not right. I like your CONTRACT philosophy that puts things in perspective doesn't it. <P>My W says this is all about her and it's her decision b/c she has always lived her life for others. I can see that maybe we aren't connected totally in mind or body but in sprit and I mean the holy sprit we are all brothers and sisters thus connected in his eyes. So many people get blinded by the devil and I beleive that all WS's have the devil working in them like crazy.<P>I wrot this email and was close to sending it before SNL's post stopped me in my tracks, SNL, thanks, and what do you think?<P>K,<P>I was thinking about something you said last night. You mentioned that even your friends saw a pattern with you and I. What friends are your talking about? The friends we saw all the time like X, x, x, x, x, x, ? or the friends like Julie, Renee and others? I would only hope that you could see that those friends and others can only base thier opinion on a few occasions that we have even been around them in social settings. Amanda and Michelle's wedding, Amanda's wedding we had a fight mainly because I didn't know anyone and felt like I was being left alone and the other we got along fine. It's amazing to me that the opinions of these people have influenced you so much to where your at the point to where you want to leave me and not work on our marriage. I feel like these people have been putting ideas in your head that you don't need that or K, you can do better. I would guess that 'he' has done the same. <P>I'm so sorry that you sought the counsel of a married man and that it lead to an affair. I know that you never intended on having the affair, but I do want you to know that I love you no matter what and I forgive you no matter what and I want to work on the marriage that we haven't worked on. Do you believe that 'he' really cares for you and is not using you for his selfish pleasures? Do you not think that Julie wants to have a single K to hang out with b/c she has no other friends that were single when she moved here? I can't believe how these people have turned you so against your marriage vow commintment, your husband, your family, and most of all your moral values. <P>I know that you need time to think through what you have done and where you want to go from here. I just pray during that time you will be honest with yourself, your God and your counselor while you are working through these issues. I know that you know what is right and what is wrong and I'm waiting on that K to come out of the fog and think without anybody's else's influence. K, as I told you last night, I love you more than anything and I want our marriage more than anything and that I'm praying for you everyday. I know I have things I need to work on and change about me and you need to do the same, but I also feel that part of that work is about me and you. How can two people work on a marriage seperatly? K, I hope your realize how sincere I am about us and I hope you see this in me. K, I love you so much and you may not feel that way now, but if you don't give us a chance then we will always go through life thinking <BR>"Wonder what would have been f only we would have tried?" K, I can only hope and pray that you give "us" a chance without caring about what anybody else thinks. My Love to you always and forever!<BR>G<P>GC

Thanks STL, <BR>I ask myself that question all the time, when will I see the light. I don't even have a flashlight to get through the dark. <P>I just called my W at work and said that I was sorry about last night. She asked me sorry for what, I said making you hang up on me, she asked why did I hang up, I said b/c you were mad, she said no b/c you were pushing me again. I said your right, and I want you to know that I am really trying but it's tough sometimes and I mess up. I will try to do better. She said I know your trying G. I changed the subject quickly just like you said SNL and talked about her work and other stuff for about 2 minutes, then she said I have to go I'll call you later I said OK and that was it. <BR>Hopefully, I was able not to withdraw any LU's and maybe make like a 1/4 deposit.<P>GC<P>

I get so emotional when i read letters like this. I just hate that the fog is so thick and WS can't see the sincerity of our BS hearts. We love them so much.<P>But I'm glad you didn't send it. I think you need to follow GM and STL's advice and take a deep breath. THis stuff takes p-a-t-i-e-n-c-e. I have to keep reminding myself of that. If we will keep on our mission of a gentle, patient, self-less, loving Plan A, the OP will begin LB'ing.

Faith1, I am with you, I've read so many letters on here that it just boggles my mind that the WS can't see the sincerity in our hearts through the fog in thier minds. <P>I believe that BS's like us who have not given up and are trying to make it work are truly strong people. We may seem weak to the outside world but we are strong to each other and in our hearts. We are making ourselves vunerable to the worst case senario vs. us getting the last laugh like so many others do w/o trying. <P>I hope that one day, we all will be able to tell others of our success. I would love to travel the country with my W and give inspiration to others going through the same things.<P>I want to be a testimony not a statistic! <P>GC

GC, you have the inner strength. Just put it to use in your daily life. You are not a weak man. Neither am I, for staying with a woman that cheats on me. Like you said, we place ourselves in a vulnerable position to get hurt again, but it is a courageous sacrifice we are willing to make in order to achieve happiness.<P>I think you did awesome on the phone. More of that!<P>But yes, society does take marriage FAR too lightly. The statistics show it. Every time I watch a movie and they make light of an affair or a divorce, I cringe now. I am changed forever, though.

I guess we all have our days, weeks etc. and I have to say this is mine. I guess it's now hitting me that she was/is really still in the A. I wanted to believe that it was over but I guess I was lying to myself like she is now. It's like another blow all over again. I should have listened to everyone who said not to snoop. Curiosity killed the cat! <P>I can only hope and pray that I scared the daylights out of the OM out there in that field with black clothes on and no lights. I know I would be scared, but then again, I wouldn't have an A. He is a slim ball who has no moral values and is willing to risk everything.<P>Sorry to be the ventman!

Things are so strange. W just called and came by to pick the dog up to go for a walk, said she would be back by later tonight. I told her that if she really wanted to keep him when she got the house she could, trying to be nice. But in my niceness I forgot that is really the only reason she even comes by or at least an excuse. Is this good or bad? Should I give her the dog in hopes that I might find out where her mind is...me or dog?<P>Also, it looks like she will sign a years lease... that is just great. Doesn't look to promising folks...I have an intuition that she has made her mind up. Why does she not file for seperation then? It takes a year in my state to go through seperation then the dreaded word that is not in my vocabulary. I will not mentioned those two words around her. W

Just a quick driveby, home for a minute, you were gonna do WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!! Call her counsellor, have you lost your mind? Ok, I see you didn't do it, but I still almost wanna come over and kick your butt myself and I am not even married to you, your wife would probably kill you, if you are lucky, more likely just torture you. I won't even tell you what I did when my wife did some similar stuff, suffice to say to say I lost all semblance of self-control and did some of the most hateful things I ever have done to another human being, set us back weeks, maybe months. Is it fair? Heck no, who said anything about fair, this is about real life and results, you want fair? each state has one about once a year, have fun at yours and then forget about fair.<P>Phone call was ok, could been better, you need to use every opportunity to maximum advantage. Email stunk, but you know that, am so happy you did not send it, just more self-serving, manipulative bull-pucky. Even if you mean well makes no difference, it won't help you to do such things. One word gdc.........YOU, focus on YOU, leave your wife alone and quit trying to manage her, won't work, won't work, won't work, won't work....YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU, am I making myself clear? Work on you. Come here to commiserate with the other bs, everyone needs support and to vent, but do not judge your wife in any way, let her judge herself, and see YOUR changes. This isn't easy, and despite the bs lament about how hard they want to work... (and that is admirable)....we don't care. We are focused on survival, that is why we left, we need to see changes, we know you are motivated, we just think the motivation is for what you want and we are just property, your marital property, and we just don't want to feel that way, there must be a reason why we do....ya know?

SNL, you are by far the most animated poster I have heard from and I apprecaite it. Although it it harsh, I kind of need to hear it that way. I'm so glad for you to be out there for us. It makes total sense now that I see your point. It is about survival and she feels like property. How log was it before you were out of the fog? How long was it in relation to when you first saw changes in your spouse? Or was it b/c the A ended and you woke up? I would be interested if you think it would help me. Thanks in advance!<P>