cjack:<P>Amen, brother. You said it beautifully. Frankly, I'm surprised at the number of people who've posted on this thread who don't automatically react to the concept of Wicca with "Burn the witch!!" It gives me new faith in humankind. <P>And you're absolutely right: For outtathefog to get all hung up on the OM's spiritual system is to obscure the real issue -- what this man is providing to fog's wife that fog isn't.<P>And you're right -- substitute the word "Judaism" for "Wicca" in these postings, and it gets nasty.<P>I can just imagine if the religion that said OM was a member of was Judaism. Yowza.<P>Back to the topic at hand: Fog, I've been your shoes, with a spouse in an unacknowledged EA with a possibility of PA. The best tactic for you is to commence Plan A immediately. If you don't know what it is, read the material on this site. That the man may be a Wiccan is immaterial.<P>

confused and clueless. love those names. being a christian means more than the words accepting christ. you have to know what you are accepting. most people appear to think voiceing the words are the magical incantation. At the risk of leading you into deeper water, it would do well for you to have given consideration to just what does it mean that you accept jesus. I will ask you one question, is it the man or the message? most people will say both, but thats not it. to be a christian are you following the man or the message? does the message have to come thru the man. assuming we can define jesus as a man. Some have said if he was not mortal then his sacrifice is meanlingless. but this is not the point. Jesus told us who he is. I will encourage you to read a Bible, there are several you know and they differ slightly. it would also be good for you to know how the most popular one came into existence. too, if you claim divine guidance then you must deal with the faultiness of the scriptures. the errors and the contridictions are rampart. you have to become spiritually dishonest in order to reconcile these things without admiting the Bible is written by men and , as one would expect, is the product of men's thinking. remember find out who Jesus really is and then you will know what being a christian really means. I now leave my soapbox. a more humble pedistal than a pulpit. thanks for bearing with me

confused and clueless. love those names. being a christian means more than the words accepting christ. you have to know what you are accepting. most people appear to think voiceing the words are the magical incantation. At the risk of leading you into deeper water, it would do well for you to have given consideration to just what does it mean that you accept jesus. I will ask you one question, is it the man or the message? most people will say both, but thats not it. to be a christian are you following the man or the message? does the message have to come thru the man. assuming we can define jesus as a man. Some have said if he was not mortal then his sacrifice is meanlingless. but this is not the point. Jesus told us who he is. I will encourage you to read a Bible, there are several you know and they differ slightly. it would also be good for you to know how the most popular one came into existence. too, if you claim divine guidance then you must deal with the faultiness of the scriptures. the errors and the contridictions are rampart. you have to become spiritually dishonest in order to reconcile these things without admiting the Bible is written by men and , as one would expect, is the product of men's thinking. remember find out who Jesus really is and then you will know what being a christian really means. I now leave my soapbox. a more humble pedistal than a pulpit. thanks for bearing with me

Hi, Cjack,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Lady Clueless even seems to be saying that intolerance is actually a hallmark of a good Christian! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What I was trying to say is that Christian means to be a follower of Christ, therefore if we don't believe that salvation comes through Jesus Christ (Jesus said it...not me!), then we aren't following Jesus.<P>That doesn't, however, mean that we should be disrespectful toward other persons. Besides, it seems to me that being called closedminded (by someone else; not by you) because we believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation is not exactly tolerant, is it?<P>Why don't we all respectfully agree to disagree when it comes to matters of religion?<P>I don't think infidelity has any roots in religion.

Lady Clueless,<P>Thanks for the clarification. You said, in your earlier post:<P><B>Yes, I understand that this belief is not tolerant of other religious beliefs; however, if we were to acknowledge that there are other paths to Heaven besides faith through Jesus Christ, then we would not be true Christians. Also, as Christians, we are instructed to tell others about Jesus.</B><P>Most of the intolerance and disrespect I have received from "Christians" stems from this very kind of thinking. By its very nature, this attitude can lead to disrespectful and intolerant behavior, no matter how good your intentions. I have had many good-intentioned people try to forcibly convert me to their particular brand of Christianity. No matter how respectfully I disagree, I am almost always met with the attitude: "What you believe is wrong, what I believe is right, and you're going straight to Hell unless you join MY church!"<P>Within Christianity alone, there are around 1,500 separate and distinct sects, each claiming to be the "one true faith," not to mention the other major and minor religious faiths held by billions of non-Christians in the world today. So I would venture to say that it <B>is</B> close-minded to accept that there are no other paths to Heaven, Nirvana, Ragnarok, or whatever afterlife you choose. <P>Furthermore, I would argue that it is indeed possible to accept that there may be other paths to salvation and still remain a Christian. You wrote:<P><B>Christian means to be a follower of Christ, therefore if we don't believe that salvation comes through Jesus Christ (Jesus said it...not me!), then we aren't following Jesus.</B><P>I see a little "wiggle room" here. If you believe that your own personal path to salvation comes through Jesus, then that's fine...for you. If, however, you believe that the <B>only</B> way to salvation is through Jesus, and that every other faith is wrong, then I would call that close-mindedness.<P>A good example would be Islam. Muslims accept Jesus as a great prophet and revere his teachings. Yet their acceptance of his words does not make them any less Muslim, does it?<P>I guess what I consider to be tolerant and respectful behavior in this regard would be: "look, here's what I believe in, and it works for me. If you don't believe what I do, fine...I won't judge you."<BR>

Hi, again, Cjack, <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you believe that your own personal path to salvation comes through Jesus, then that's fine...for you. If, however, you believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus, and that every other faith is wrong, then I would call that close-mindedness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, Cjack, I guess I'll just have to be close-minded. You see, I didn't make the rules for salvation, and I don't think that the rules are for US to decide. I also don't think that God says, Well, Lady Clueless can believe this and be saved, but Cjack can believe that and be saved. I really think that God's plan for salvation is the same for ALL of us. All we can do is interpret scripture to the best of our ability. I will say that I don't believe we have to belong to any particular denomination to ensure our salvation.<P>And, in my particular denomination, I have been taught that the best way to witness is by sharing my own religious experience and beliefs and by living my convictions...living my life in such a way that others say, "I want what she has!" <BR>I don't always succeed in the living my convictions part (it's been really tough since H's "whatever" with Cafe Woman)....that ol' sinful nature of mine takes hold of me far too often , but I do try.<P>And, BTW, wanting others to experience salvation is not a hateful thing, but a loving thing. We just get too over-zealous at times.

for those who seem offended by my post<P>i do not usually put in punctuation marks because i t ype fast<P>however in this post i asked QUESTIONS <BR>i ASKED what the religion was about<BR>i was not slandering it in any way<P>sorry for any misinterpretation

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lady Clueless:<BR><B><BR> Well, Cjack, I guess I'll just have to be close-minded. You see, I didn't make the rules for salvation, and I don't think that the rules are for US to decide. I also don't think that God says, Well, Lady Clueless can believe this and be saved, but Cjack can believe that and be saved. I really think that God's plan for salvation is the same for ALL of us. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think a clarification is in order here. Of course you and I don't make the rules, yet we do choose which set of rules to follow! And there is no clear consensus on what those "rules" are, at least among the world's major religions. <P>Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, etc. all have their own set of "rules." Many of the world's faiths claim divine inspiration, and as such are no less valid than Christianity. Indeed, many of the basic concepts are the same. Yet if you ask a member of each of the worlds major faiths as to what God's "plan" is, you will get quite a variety of answers. <P>You may say "Well, the <I>Bible says...</I>"<P>While a Muslim would reply "But the <I>Qu'ran says...</I>"<P>To which a Parsee would say "Well, <I>Zoroaster teaches...</I>"<P>While a Hindu might say "The <I>Vedas tell me...</I>"<P>Can they <B>all</B> be right? Is it possible to know which path is the right one? Or is it possible that God may have more than one "plan" for salvation? <P>I think the latter is more likely. I remember a fiery fundamentalist who used to preach in front of the campus library when I was in college. I'd stop by and argue with him every now and then, since he was one of the "join my church or burn in Hell" crowd. One day he said:<P> "Every man in his heart knows God."<P>To which I replied: <P>"So how come you act like you know Him better than I do?"<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited August 27, 2001).]

outtathefog, buried deep amidst all this spiritual talk are the answers you seek:<P>Wicca is not an intrinsically "dangerous" religion, any more than any other religion. If your wife's OM is Wiccan, it does not mean that he can cast spells on her to force her into his clutches against her will. <P>Perhaps you are looking for an easy answer to your problem, but there is none.<P>The answer you seek is here in the MB principles. This man is fulfilling needs in your wife that you are not. This may be hard for you to face, but there we are. They may be spiritual, emotional, or sexual needs, but them's the facts.<P>This is an OPPORTUNITY for you to look inside yourself at the kind of husband you are. Step outside yourself and look at how you behave in your marriage from your W's point of view. Then make the necessary changes. Every relationship is a series of actions and reactions. If your actions change, your wife's reactions will have to change.<P>Wicca is not your problem. The breakdown of your marriage is your problem. Don't let Wicca be a red herring that keeps you searching down the wrong path for easy answers to your dilemma. Change what you have control over.

Lady Clueless said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, as Christians, we are instructed to tell others about Jesus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In two years of living among Amish neighbors, not one of them tried to "tell us about Jesus." My understanding is that they believe that theirs is the only path to Heaven - but they don't feel the need to proselytize - unlike most of the rest of our neighbors, I might add. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dazed and Confused:<BR><B>BTDT:<BR>I am not anti-Christian. I have no problem with anyone practicing his or her faith. It is the "one-true-way"-ism of many practitioners of Christianity; the politicization of Christianity, that I object to; the kind of mean-spirited judgmentalism that BTDT's remarks demonstrate. It is this sort of sentiment, this lack of respect for differing faiths and this NEED to convert everyone, that gave rise to the many atrocities that have been committed over the years in the name of Jesus.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I got the definition of CULT from the WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY for crying out loud! I didn't make that up out of meanness, was trying to answer outtathefog's question by saying that wiccan is a cult by definition. Plain and simple. <P>You judged the spirit behind my words, Dazed & Confused... Only God can rightly judge my spirit and the respect level I have for human beings and their beliefs!

Then perhaps you'd like to SHOW us.<P>As for your "Webster's dictionary meaning", well, it's only partially correct. You are using the word "God" to mean the western God, the God Jehovah, the Great White Alpha Male that western religions regard as a supreme ruler; God defined as the only deity.<P>So in my usual contrarian spirit, I went to the Merriam-Webster dictionary online, and found the word "cult" to have a wide variety of meanings, not all of them religious:<P>Here we go, with my comments noted in { }.<P>1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP {By this definition, Christianity's various sects are cults}<P>2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents {see above}<P>3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents {I think this is the definition to which you were referring}<P>4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults> {A non-religious meaning}<P>5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion {Again, see above. Christianity "rules" these days by dint of sheer numbers, many of which were obtained over the century by coercive means.}<P>It's true, BTDT that there are many religions that don't regard Joshua of Nazareth as the Messiah, and don't have as their godhead the god Jehovah (Yahweh). The implication in the definition you cited (and since when is Webster's your bible?) is that Wicca and such religions are "Godless." Nothing could be further from the truth, unless your system by definition precludes the possibility of a female deity.<P>

I've been reading this thread but choosing not to respond. I have found it most interesting, especially the posts from DazednConfussed. Very good reading.<P>It all reminds me of the signs put out by the church around the cornor. I have to pass this church everyday so I always look for what they have to say this week. Two come to mind that have stuck with me for whatever reason:<BR>God grades on the cross not on the curve.<P>God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nut.<P>I enjoy what these have to say to us.<BR>NOt that it has alot if anything to do wtih this thread but thought I'd put them out there just the same!<BR>Thanks again for the good read!

From the "They Burn Witches, Don't They?" file:<P>A Midwest City high school student returned to the classroom Wednesday after a one-day suspension for wearing a pentacle in class.<P>Sabrina Erickson practices Wicca, a type of paganism based on earth, wind, air and water. [D&C's comment: Well, not really, but OK...]<P>When Erickson refused school officials' request to take off the five-starred pentacle at school, she was suspended for violating a dress code that prohibits disruptions in class.<P>"If Christians blatantly wear their crosses, or if Jews can wear a Star of David, why can't I wear my pentacle," Erickson said on Eyewitness News 5 Tuesday.<P>After meeting with school officials on Tuesday, Erickson was allowed to return to class. The suspension was based on the principal's misunderstanding of Wicca, Erickson said.<BR>-------------------------<BR>In the 21st century, yet. How little we've progressed.

Outtathefog, I agree with you on apologies being in order here...<P>Please forgive me anyone who was offended at my ignorance of Wicca and my use of a dictionary that I happened to have handy at the time. Obviously my opinions as well as my attempt to clarify was not good enough for DazedandConfused, so I don't know what else I can say except I'm truly sorry?<P>I never signed up here to be arguing world religion and never intended to offend, nor put anyone--ANYONE--on the defensive, regardless of their beliefs. Never imagined I would be attacked for my beliefs, either? After all, I found HNHN in my local Christian bookstore! <P>Still, I think way too much was read into my first post which had no particular feeling behind it, let alone meanness & judgment??? Judgment???? If anything, it was ignorance. So I apologize for my ignorance.<P>Of course, I feel everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and everyone is entitled to their opinions, if I didn't believe that I certainly wouldn't be hanging around a discussion forum! I never said nor felt otherwise so I just find it amazing how I got labeled so harshly? <P>Since some were offended by me, I believe they were offended because of how they interpret things I said, not my spirit in which my statement was offered. So again I submit to you that only God will truly know my sincerity and intentions behind what I say when I say it. Besides, you are already convinced that I'm what you say I am.<P>You see, Jesus is not a crutch for me, but He is the whole hospital... So whatever it takes to endure and survive the pain and devastation of infidelity--I say go for it!!! Grab onto it, hold onto it, don't let it go and keep on doing it, if it works for you--INCLUDING the Harley principles!<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited August 30, 2001).]

BTDT:<P>NO ONE is attacking you for your beliefs, least of all me. I have stated very explicitly in EVERY POST I'VE EVER MADE ON THESE FORUMS that I in no way am ever telling anyone what to believe or what his or her faith should be. I'm a staunch believer in both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.<P>It's not any particular faith or belief system I object to, it's the one-true-wayism that I find so often in this forum; the proseletyzing and the condescension towards other faiths that one-true-wayism involves.<P>Go with God, BTDT, and I'm happy that your faith speaks to you the way it does. Many people search a lifetime without finding something they can believe in. Just be aware that others believe differently.<P>My whole purpose for getting involved in this discussion in the first place was because the original post was asking about a possible connection between Wicca and his wife's EA/PA (i.e. the implication spells cast upon her to lure her into some evil, nefarious Satanic web). And my point was to debunk myths about Wicca so that he can focus on the task at hand: WORKING ON HIS MARRIAGE. Wicca should not be a scapegoat in the situation.

OTF and others.. please follow..<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/012265.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/012265.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>Semper Fi,<P><B>Husband2You</B><BR>*****<BR><I>···In the valley of the blind the one eye'd man is King···</I><P> <B> </B>· Formerly: <B>E m p t y</B> ·

OK, here goes, Iv'e had enough.<P>Religion has very little to do with the unmet needs of the WS. Valerie [XW] got into pick up trucks and country music after meeting Brian. [OM, Guess what he drives and listens to] So, should I be pissed at all men that drive trucks and listen to a certain type of music?<P>Sure, that would be the easy way out. Those damn truck driving flannel shirt wearing gun rack toting fishing and hunting dog owning country fools. Um... no... I messed up in the M and take full responsibility for my actions.<P>Attacking one's beliefs is a great target. Look deep into yourself.<P>Oh and BTW I'm Wiccan and proud of it. **My pentacle** never leaves my neck. I also know of many other Wiccans on the site that I will not reveal.<P>I can understand you anger over you marital distress, but attacking ones belief is not the answer.<P><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic