My heart is breaking for you Orchid...<BR>My prayers are with you...<BR>I know He will keep you in the palm of His hand<BR>and carry you through this difficult night...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

They can....<P>But they fear doing so...for a collage of reasons...<P>Taking responsibility for yet another wrong decision is not something they like, nor want, to do. Some BS forget that WS are very vulnerable at this time...whether you want to admit it, see it, believe it, or agree with it...their self esteem is at an all time low. They are wrong, they know they are wrong, and making a decision, in either direction, toward the Marriage, or the OP, is going to get them chastised...so they tend to tell everyone what they want to hear. They are trying to fix everyone, themselves included, by being a caretaker. Their anger that comes and goes is due to their considerable guilt, whether they admit it to you or not, it is there. It is their suit of armor, their self protection mechanism.<P>Not making a decision, to a WS, is safe. It means they are no longer responsible for another failure. It also means that they no longer will hurt anyone else, themselves included. I realize that many of you will Pooh-Pooh this explanation and call it justification/rationalization/bull**it, but the bottom line is that most WS that I have talked with, are hurting and want it to go away. Not making a decision helps them along that path. Think about it....would you want to be wrong over and over again...don't forget that the OP is in their hearts at this time too, and they fear backlash from hurting or angering them as well...it is just easier to try and *fix* everyone...<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Hi TH,<P>I guess there is a ring of truth to that. H keeps saying that he wants everyone to be happy. That is not possible. He knows that yet he keeps saying it. So tell me where do they come up with this same type of wayward logic? What in their mind makes up this kind of thinking? Is it too much to know what is causing this? I mean even when I want to do wrong, I don't jeporadize others to do it? These same people used to be that way and now?<P>I guess I would get evicted from fogese land if I ever was dumb enough to go there. Sorry for the vent. H did not come home. I guess now he never will..<P>L.<BR>

O...<P>I am sorry, I didnt see the second page...you hang in there and remember, as difficult as it is to realize, that his actions are not about you, or hurting you. They are about his own selfish motives...if he, in fact, chooses that direction. Hang in there!!<P>Trueheart

"So tell me where do they come up with this same type of wayward logic? What in their mind makes up this kind of thinking? Is it too much to know what is causing this? I mean even when I want to do wrong, I don't jeporadize others to do it? These same people used to be that way and now?"<P>O, <P>I do not believe it is thinking, as much as it is feelings. It is on an emotional level now. They have already hurt everyone, and now that that they have, they are trying to protect everyone, self included, from further damage. I am not justifying the A, nor the waffling back and forth, only offering my perceptions and experiences. Again, referring back to other posts, remember discussions about seperating the relationships, even our own personalities?? Well, when you are with each person, you tend to tell them what they want/need to hear for their sake and piece of mind, and yours. Every word that comes out of your mouth is true, for that person, but not for the other, if you can follow that. When talking to the BS, you mean everything you are saying, and forget about the consequence of the OP, since they arent hearing it, and vice versa...you are safe within the walls of each relationship, as long as they dont cross over, and you can protect everyone involved...although you are deepening the lies and the "Great Divide", so to speak.<P>When the world really gets rocked is when both the BS and OP overlap, interact, or are in the same place together and WS is in the middle, having to choose. You want to see blown gaskets? Man oh Man!!<P>Trueheart

Hi TH,<P>I meant to welcome you back. Haven't seen you over here in a while and I missed you. You are like my 'big' brother..... full of good advice. <P>I really don't know if he will come back. OW 's wiles are quite strong. It would not take much to get him in her bed. YUCK!!! If he comes back it would be a miracle. So I doubt it. I tried calling his cell but no answer. I don't want my mind to wander about what they are doing, since it will start my anxiety attacks all over again. I can already feel the tension creeping up my neck. <P>I must learn to let go. It is so hard for me. I don't really understand why I keep going through this. It is not the first time, I have been down this road before. This time though, I let him go with less effort. I did not struggle to hold onto him. Just the fact that he was accepting calls from the OW, set me off. I knew that it was time to cut all contact with OW for my sake. My health was failing rapidly. I could not tolerate her calls. Hearing her voice (much less what she said) irritated me. Guess she would love to know that. Hmmph...... I don't want anyone to make me that angry. <P>It will be a rough week. Then again it has been a rough year. Never would I wish this on my worst enemy. Oh yea, that would be OW. Well, maybe on her but not her H. I feel sorry for her H even though she claims (via my WS) that he did this to her. Justification? No more like revenge at our expense. <P>L. <BR>

Wish I had some astute advice to offer, some kind of plan, but the fact is (as you know) there is little you can do...as best you can, give it up to God, there is a reason for everything, and all that happens can be an opportunity, most times it is simply how we choose to see, that makes the difference. My usual response to serious stress is a hot fudge sundae, or a double chocalate malt...if that works for you. You don't deserve this, no bs does, the A is bad enough, but can be understood, the on-going torture is really hard to fathom. The choice is simple, move out and pursue the op, on your own, as your spouse plan b you...or do no contact and extraordinary precautions...this business of dating the op and living with spouse is difficult for me to understand. If the calories are too high, make some popcorn, and find a movie to watch until you fall asleep on the couch. Or read the most boring (but important) book you have.....Hey an idea hit me.....write a poem and post it. Good luck, is always darkest before the dawn (kinda the mantra for us incurable optimist types).

Hi Snl,<P>So you have come to my rescue..... Thanks for your support. You found my weakness, chocolate. You know I used to have a 2pm craving everyday. After d/d that went away. Oh I still like it but not crave. <P>It is not a real stress reliever like it used to be. I must be changing, nothing really relieves this stress anymore. It is like I just live with it. Daily pain..... don't know what it is like to be pain free anymore. <P>You are right. I am going to ask a big favor out of you and thinker. I know you have to spend time together but if you two could please spare a minute and kind of just watch out for me. Not a lot of time, just make sure I make it through this rough time. I would greatly appreciate it. I can take my dosage of a good swift kick....to keep me straight. I know I can count on you for that!<P>I need to let go. I stress so bad and I don't really understand why. I keep saying that because it is true yet I feel so stupid. Uh oh..... you don't think, oh I hope not.... being pulled into the fog...... YUCK!!! HELP!!!<P>Need to go and get ready for bed. I am afraid to lie down since that is when the bad thoughts and nightmares begin. <P>L.

Orchid, <BR>mentally picture yourseld handing this over to God. It is out of your control right now. Nothing you do will FIX this. Hand it over. He wants to take it from you, but you have to let go. <P>Relax in your bed, and rest. Pray for your H's soul. PRay for the OW too. yuck, I know. <P>Take a deep breath. Imagine yourself being held in the palm of God's hands. He is so strong. He will never leave you. he will not abandon you.<P>Trust Him. ok? We are all here to support you. No matter what happens. But let God have it.<P> <P>You are so special. Take care of you....<P>Prayers and angels......

Oh Orchid,<P>I hadn't read any posts today. I am so sorry for the pain he is putting you through. I just don't understand this whole thing. You know the Harleys say that an affair and this behavior could happen to anyone. But I don't believe that. <P>There are many times in our marriage, I knew that Jim didn't love me the way he should. I just always felt strong about our marriage. I probably would have accepted him back this time too. Awful as that may sound. I could never hurt someone like he has hurt me. I wouldn't treat my enemies like he has treated me. It is just not me. I wish now I had had affairs. I met such neat people, that made me feel so good and gave me more affection than my husband ever did. How sad. I always turned to him to try to make things better. It just didn't work. I still feel so empty inside. Maybe there is a time to let go. <P>You have been hurt so many times too. Don't we have the right to be happy and live joyous lives too? How long do we give to them? When is it time to say enough is enough?<P>I am sorry I am rambling. Sometimes I just feel so much hurt here on this site. why is this happening to so many people? How do you get the pain to stop?

From "The Mastery of Love"<BR>Chapter: <I> The God Within You </I><P><B> You are the force that plays with your mind and uses your body as its favorite toy to play and have fun with. That is the reason you are here: to play and have fun. We are born with the right to be happy, and with the right to enjoy life. We are not here to suffer. Whoever wants to suffer is welcome to suffer, but we don't have to suffer. </B><P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

I have been keeping thinker informed L, can only pray for ya. But I have another thought, maybe should have a way of whisking ws away for detox/deprogramming sorta like you do with family members who get sucked into cults. Some isolated place (with no phones), mandatory MB training, and a boot camp atmosphere (so can appreciate all the benefits of a bs). No sex, 6 month program....at end they can choose spouse, or op (but have to do 6 more months to earn divorce, and give up everything they own, except joint custody, and enough of a stake for reasonable living). Meantime bs lives nearby, and depending on scores of MB quizzes, and grades from role playing exercises, they can see bs if they want and be released for the day (sex up to the couple).

Topie, Faith, Cali and MnM, <P>You have all been so encouraging, Cali your lovely poems and sayings hit home. I really appreicate that. <P>TH and Snl,<P>Thanks again. Snl, I like your boot camp idea but I venture to say that it would be considered: Hitlerette 'n controlling? Hm....... would be nice if we could put some sense into these WSs. Guess nothing worse than a reformed WSs? LOL Just kidding. I like your sense of humor and wit. Sure wish you could talk to H. <P>I am a bit calmer thanks to all of you. I will even try to go to sleep. After I pay some bills. <P>Mahalo,<BR>L.<BR>

Orchid,<BR>Don't know if you're still up, but here's a local girl ready to lend assistance..can even meet with you if you're on Oahu.<BR>Let me know..<BR>T

Can even get you a doctor's note to miss work tomorrow!!! Hey, there's an idea...how about a free day off!<BR>T

Dear Twyla,<P>Thanks for the offer. Actually WS (his new title now) came back to get dressed for work (couldn't drive a limo van with his jeans). He got dressed in the garage and patio area. All his clothes is in the garage. Later he asked if it was final, I said yes. You see, they did have s3x last night. For me this is it. He said he went there just to talk for a little while and had no plans of spending the night but when I called and found out where he was and said don't come back, he felt he had no option. I call that a pretty wimpy exucse to commit adultery. <P>But you know what? I was actually able to sleep better last night. The bad nightmares didn't last as long this time. Maybe that is a good thing. I don't know. Talking with Faith and Karen helped too..... Then TH & SNL gave me a late pep talk...... Hey, it pays off. <P>Now a note from the doctor? What an offer. I sure would like to take you up on it but I just had a 8 day vacation (if you call dealing with this A stuff vacation) and have to be there for my staff. Oh well...... <P>Thanks again and when I need a good doc in the islands, I'll let you know. <P>L.

Morning O...<P>The only advice for my *lil sis* is take back the control of your life. Do not give over your strength and power and energy to OW or H. I know that sounds easier said than done, but as you said it has been a difficult year. I think that even though, you feel beat up and beaten down, you need to remember all the positives you have...your strength, conviction, love and *stickitivity*!! Those are all things within you that nobody can take, and now, it is YOUR time to shine...reclaim who YOU are and what YOU want in your life. If H no longer fits in those plans, then cast off the chains that he holds on you, and move ahead. He is a negative force that binds you to that which you dont need!! <P>Remember...YOU are awesome! Move ahead and...<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life YOU have imagined.*<P>Trueheart

(((Orchid))) You've been such a strong source of comfort to me over these last weeks. It makes it all that much harder to see you in such pain. I wish there was a magic way to take it away from you. I just finished reading a book that sounds like a children's story (and reads like one), but I could see myself SOOOO clearly in it, maybe it would help a lot of us here. BS's as well as WS's. It's called "The Princess Who Believed in Fairy Tales" by Marcia Grad. The back says "For every woman who has ever dreamed of finding a Prince Charming and living happily ever after, only to have her cherished fairy tale shattered by the painful day-to-day reality of being hurt by the one she loves...And for her mother, daughter, sister, or friend who wants to help--and needs to understand what she thinks, how she feels, why she stays, and why it's so hard for her to let go, even after she leaves. It's been an excellent eye opener for me. I encourage you to find it and read it; then read it again. I'm praying so hard for you...

Oh Orchid!!! I am so sorry for you. Here you are posting and making me feeling better on my vent post yesterday and you are in so much pain yourself!<P>I wish I could rush right over and give you a great big hug. You don't deserve this. I agree with Trueheart, take control! Let him go live his miserable life. You have set your boundaries and he crossed it, YOU ARE DONE.<P>Tattoo that on your forehead (as SnL likes to tell me...), you don't need to take this from him. It doesn't mean you won't pray/hope that things can work out, but YOU ARE DONE with him until HE can come and SHOW you that he is serious and means business this time. No exceptions, k? You can't keep letting him hurt you like this.<P>I'm sorry for your pain Orchid. I am dying inside for you.<P>I'm at work if you need to talk, I'll email you my phone #.<P>HbH

Oh, Orchid,<BR> I am so sorry to hear of this. I have been off the boards for awhile due to an illness. I wish there was something I could say to make this easier for you! But, I know that only time and distance from the pain will help you to heal. But the scars this hell leaves...<BR> Try to concentrate on keeping your health, we have to do this for our children, for thekids I stay sane.