Cali...<P>I have not been posting due to hectic work schedule, but do follow here a lot. YOU are worth so much more than this! YOU are the definitive model of Plan A, unconditional love, patience and understanding....up to now! It is time to no longer make it about him, which you have done up to now. All he has done with your love and caring, is use it as an excuse to continue hurting you, pushing you away, and following his previous patterns (at least it sure looks that way). I remember when he came here and spouted his epithets of us being hypocrites and not understanding...and everyone backed off to give him a chance...well, as one that has been there, I can tell you, if he can't change his own behavior, he doesn't deserve you! You are a teacher...and when your gut instincts take over at school, and you know inside yourself that something is going on, you are usually right. You cannot keep enabling him to hurt you...he uses your love and Plan A as his excuse to hurt you....pretty hypocritical of him, IMHO.<P>You deserve something/someone/somewhere better in your life. I realize you love him...but love is not taking hits to the chin on a weekly basis while he does whatever he wants to do to your heart, head, and love. Maybe he just doesnt get it, or doesnt want to....but for YOUR sake, it is time to Plan B, before you lose you!! You are too precious to go down the road of abuse this way!! Too many here know that and care...{{{{hugggggggz}}}}<P>Still have that email addy? Use it anytime you need to!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

newwoman,<P>Well, that's where *I* am right now. I see elements of this stuff in many of the descriptions of WS. <P>When I discovered W's internet EA it had the effect of entirely displacing the MLC stuff (temporarily). But, while an MLC sucks it just can't compare, pain wise, to an A. Someone falling into an A probably wouldn't know that and it might seem like problems are getting solved -- you know, so many WS's seem to suddenly know exactly where their lives are going while in the A. <P>It's only when it starts to wind down that they find that they're really screwed: the MLC hasn't gone away and now they have the pain of the A added on top. I think this makes it even harder for them to choose their original life (as opposed to slinking away in shame).<P>Jeffers<P>

WOW!<P>Just Wow...I just love this place...I pray everyday that my H finds some support and direction from somewhere...I just see him hurting so much...<P>Maybe that's where my patience comes in...I have this double-edged sword ability to "see" stuff in others...to understand more than I should...(he hates that I do seem to know him so well).<P>You guys are awesome...and I have even more to ponder upon.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

This thing with the 18 year old is really spinning around in my head. <P>I remember being 19 and involved with a 30-something, an on and off involvement and friendship that lasted years, until I gained enough maturity to realise that the reason he continually sought out younger women, especially relatively naive ones, was because he could make them believe, through what he said, he was whoever he wanted them to believe he was. Once I could see through the projection to the vulnerable who he really was, I had to humour him a lot, (because I did consider him a friend with feelings) well, after the initial argument where I really hurt him holding up his projection and what everyone else saw for comparison.<P>All this stuff about his quest and about not living his life the way he wanted to... I see this young girl really 'in tune' with what were his own youthful hopes and dreams & I'm sorry, you really can't get those back. Once you change by making choices, the person who you'd be even if you pursued those dreams again changes.<P>I'm reading your hesitation, still. I'm reading the part of you who could move across the country by herself, the person who could survive and exceed against the odds and expectations. I'm feeling Animal Farm's Horse.<P>Steph mentioned perhaps one more hurrah! before he came back, paraphrase. I don't know. If his quest was to find himself, my understanding of him is way off...you don't find yourself through other people, you find yourself through reflection. If this 18 year old is part of him trying to find himself, I gave him more credit for spirituality than he merited.<P>I still wish you all the best. We know that I am no great wizard at relationships, let's not bring up any names! You do what you feel you need to do to make your life what you want it to be, what you want to do to make your life what you need.<BR>

Dear Jeffers,<P>I agree. MLC is all about self worth. For whatever reason, something missing in childhood has made the person experiencing MLC believe that they are not worthy. Someone comes along and boosts the ego, and the self-worth problems are taken care of, temporarily.<P>Unfortunately, when the WS has to face the pain caused and finally "wakes up", self-worth plunges to a new and extreme low. When the fantasy vanishes, so does the ego boost, and all of the unresolved issues are still present.<P>Slinking away in shame is sometimes a more attractive option than facing yourself. If you have to take responsibility for your own happiness, you have to take responsibility for your own mistakes. You have to stop blaming others and really "see" yourself.<P>I will say, however, that when I was going through my MLC, I did not understand what I was experiencing. I always knew I felt as though I didn't deserve what I had achieved, but did not know why.<P>I did not understand, until my H insisted on counseling (I now know to fix me so he could move on) why I had always felt the way I did. I did not understand how to fix something I did not understand.<P>I am an attractive 42-year-old woman who was, until recently, a full-time practicing attorney (I was also, in my youth, a straight A student, a Junior Miss and "Madison County Miss Cheerleader"), sound like some kind of type A perfectionist. You're right. We have 3 beautiful and talented children. My H is a successful and handsome businessman.<P>The pain of my H's A threw me into a depression that required me to leave my firm. It is a good firm, and I was a good lawyer. I worked for 16 years with these people. I was a partner. They were my friends. They all know exactly why I cannot, at the moment, practice law. It is humiliating.<P>But guess what? I have finally understood that I am worthy. I have adjusted my priorities. I thought my H was proud of his extremely competent wife. He was. However, what he really wanted was to feel competent himself. I, through ignorance, emasculated him.<P>I am, for the first time in my life, a stay-at-home mom. You know what? It feels really good. I think my ambivalence had to do with being pulled in two directions by my career and my family. I could not give fully to either and ended up feeling like a failure in both.<P>I am lucky that my H's witch didn't want him, and he has now, soundly I think, decided he wants me. However, we have a very long road ahead.<P>Jeffers, I finally learned that in order to feel the good about myself, I had to recognize the bad. I am now begining to learn about feeling joy. It is a wonderful feeling.<P>I hope your W will also learn to feel the joy.<P>Love,<P>Julie<P>

newwoman,<P>I looked back at my reply and realized that I had omitted a key pronoun. The MLC was MINE. I'm the one currently stuck in limboland.<P>W's EA had more to do with escaping the disaster our household had become while fostering a wayward niece's children. My emotional withdrawal due to MLC probably contributed as well. She's totally recovered (as far as I can tell).<P>But... everything you said still applies .. to me! I find it significant that I've used that exact phrase in another post: "I want to experience the joy again". We have 3 kids, I'm a perfectionist, W's career is taking off. She doesn't have to be a SAHM anymore with all our kids now in school. <P>I'm trying to take things one day at a time now and actually make CHOICES. I love hearing about people who have survived this.<P>Jeffers<P><BR>

Cali, I am so sorry to hear of your H's continued disrespect to you and your family. <P>On that note. one thing I wanted to mention was that YOU SHOULD NOT GO INTO PLAN B out of anger, for revenge, or to try and make your H do something.<P>I think if you went to plan B, say TOMORROW, you would really miss out on it's true effect and it would just be another form of manipulation. Oh, believe me, you deserve it, but the timing is just wrong, given all of your other posts.<P>Plan B is not cause and effect. Just cause you found out about the 18-year old does not mean you immediately go to plan B. It means you get hurt, you analyze, you plan A for a few more days/weeks, then you make your decision. <P>You make your decision when NOTHING bad has happened to try and persuade your thinking. You do it when in the middle of a good, solid plan A.<P>If you did it now, he would just be like, "she's getting back at me..." If you wait a few days, or whatever, until you are able to calm yourself and think more clearly, I think you will be much happier. <P>It will be a choice made for YOU, not in reaction to HIM.<P>Just keep that in mind, k? I've been in that place before and made the WRONG choices, I see that now...<P>Oh, in the meantime, I would recommend being honest and telling him you can't any more of this, that he is hurting you, etc. No LB's. Take alot of time for yourself.<P>I do see plan B in your very near future though. I really think you need it... LOL.<P>I'd recommend getting that pad and paper out and having the letter all ready, it will help in your decision, I think.<P><<<<<<<<Cali>>>>>>>><P>HbH

Been reading your posts for a while and want to throw in my 2 cents worth......<P>A penny of thoughts for Cali,<P>You are worth more than your weight in gold..... Your value is far more than that of corals.... You are a capable wife and mother.. Never, never forget that. <P>Cali, if you have to cut your losses here and move on, you will benefit. If your H, can turn around and you are willng to forgive him for all his sins, you are still the better one and he will benefit. <P>See Cali, either way you stand to benefit. Same here for many of us. Plan A to better ourselves, has been done. Yet our H's are still out there deserving of the title WS. If so then time to go to plan B. Time to protect ourselves. <P>If your H wants to be back in your family's life, he needs to bring value back to your table. Let him prove what he can bring. If not.... oh this is hard to say.....let him walk away...... he has to live with what he is walking away from and yes you will also but he is the one on the losing end of the stick.<P><BR>To the 2nd penny of thought to Mr. Cali: WAKE UP!!!! Make sure before you blow all your chances with the woman you made a vow before God and man to love, honor and cheris til death do you part (or the like), that you willfully choose this course and will be known as one who chose to leave his family... Otherwise, you'd better hurry up and do the manly and right thing and ask for forgiveness. <P>You know, this is the only Biblical sin (act against God) where the right to forgive is left up to a person...... Your wife...... If your wife forgives you so will God, if she does not, God may not..... These words are not meant to scare you, they are meant to help you see reality.<P>You know Cali, better than us. Many of us think quite highly of her. Are we wrong? Has she misled us somehow? Hm....... or do you really need help? <P>I am sorry for coming on so strong like this. We have never spoke nor met. Yet, when one sees a person in distress, our hearts go out to that one. If you are in distress, then you need to get help, if we can help, please ask. We will do what we can. But to know that you are continually hurting your wife and children and not say anything is unthinkable. Are you afraid your reputation will be ruined? You'd better ask if your reputation can be repaired....... Remember the most important persons in your life here on this planet are that of your family. <P>Treat them with respect. Do whatever it takes to restore your love for them. You gave your children life, together with your wife, you helped bring this family of yours into this world. Are they worth so little that you can just throw them away for what an teenie booper and an immoral woman? What a bad trade..... don't gamble your life away so easily. Your family is worth more than that.<P>Mr. Cali, if you do by chance read this, I hope a bit of it sticks. If not, I did get the opporunity to speak out in behalf of Cali. She has helped me a lot. I believe you needed to know that. <P>Cali, I am sorry for your hurt and pain. Hon, if I have said or wrote anything that offended you, please e-mail me and I will revise this post. <P>Take care,<BR>L. <BR>

Just wanted to clarify that I have 'known' about 18 year-old since beginning of the summer...that's when her phone calls first began appearing on his cell phone...(when I was listening to messages)...<P>What threw me was calling her number and listening to the message...<P>Yeah, LibbyDoe...I truly understand what you are talking about...it is a big part of the four agreements and the mastery of love...you believe that you are who the people around you believe you to be...you simply reflect what and who YOU THINK they THINK you are...<P>I think as newwoman and jeffers have said that is a large part of MLC...discovering who you really are and choosing adulthood...choosing to live life not necessarily FOR others, but to include others because they enrich your life...people in adolescence and MLC have a certain amount of selfishness and feel that people OWE them something and you only stay around people who make you feel good, do things FOR you... have your back so-to-speak...<P>Maybe that's why as much as I say I will have a huge MLC someday, I probably won't...I have had to be self-aware to get through the trials in my life...but no so aware that I figured out how it was damaging me and my relationships...that's been the journey this year...that and the issue of control...<P>Everything keeps coming back to control...as I read mthrr's post...I kept saying YES! YES! YES! that's me...<P>Where does my fear come from? Lack of self-esteem in the relationship part of my life...remember? He's IT for me...S3x is incredible with him (or is it? like I have anything for comparison...) Honestly, I haven't been without IT in 15 years...oh, there were slow periods...you know the once every week times...and some time when I was pregnant when we had to NOT for a month...(agony)...<P>That is my Pavlov's dog response...(and I think it is the same with him....he has said it is the best connection I have with him...)Yeah, I'm afraid without IT my love bank would get pretty dry, pretty quick...<P>and yeah, he is not self-reflecting...he is still avoiding and self-medicating...I called him on it last night when "he didn't want to talk about something." I asked why the avoidance...he said it wasn't...I said what's the difference between avoidance and NOT wanting to talk about something (NOTHING)....<P>I am in prayer and in thought as to my next step...I will trust that I will be shown the way...I am listening...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Dear Orchid...what you say comes from your heart...and remember my agreements...take nothing personally...YOU have so much you want to say to your H and my pain gave you the courage to say what you needed to say to my H...I treasure that...<P>I will print these posts out as my H is not reading anymore, but has said he will read what I print out...eventually I will have a big notebook of stuff for him to read...when he is ready...when he asks...<P>Thank you all again...the resolve is hardening...the despair is not so desperate...I am feeling assured and reassured...I believe I will know when the time is right and what I will do...but as we have advised so many others...I will NOT do it in anger or any other emotion...<P><BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<P>Once again, I am proud of you. What I wrote is really for your H. I have said my piece to my H. I did write from the heart. Yes, when the time is right, you will know. Preparing is what we are doing here. Implementation comes based on how we prepared and how well we prepared. <P>You sounded stronger and you will be stronger. Cali, you are a good person and your inner beauty shines through here all the time. Your outer beauty may be georgeous (can't say but assume so), but your inner beauty is what will carry you through and make you desireable to the right people. <P>You have support, it was good to hear from your sisters. Seems your personalities are similar. Kind of can tell you are related. LOL!!!! This is good. <P>Take care my friend and continue to be the best you can be.<P>L. <P><BR>

Dearest Cali,<P>You will find the answers that are right for you. I am now feeling guilty for so strongly urging you to Plan B the SOB. See my absolutely pitiful post to Twyla in recovery.<P>There is no reason here. There is no logic here. We are dealing with people who do not see reason or logic. And we do not see logic or reason. We love.<P>You should KICK HIS BUTT OUT!! But I didn't kick out my H. I should have, but didn't. I understand why you don't.<P>I just know that until he understood that I would not "take" it any more - his little "relationship" with his little "girlfriend" (the horse-faced winch) - he continued to have the best of both of us.<P>Please consider ending what must be agony for you. Tell your H that you love him, but that you will not live this way. Tell your H that you are moving on.<P>Yea, I know, easier said than done. I'm still with my SOB.<P>We just all want you to heal and have a chance at the life you're missing.<P>You are obviously a great person Cali. Don't, in this turmoil, forget that.<P>Love,<P>Julie

newwoman, Don't feel guilt...I think the best part of these forums is that as we write 'advice' to others, we come to understand what we must do for ourselves...<P>See we know the answers...that's why we ask the questions...we humans are kinda backwards that way...<P>I know that he must lose me to find me...and that is his risk...I have told him that I will not continue to live this way...that I will be loved and cherished...if not by him...then someone...that I will have a partnership...<P>He also knows I want it to be him...he still says he doesn't want to be here, but his words lack conviction and he hesitates....he says he doesn't want s3x anymore...but we still rock and roll...go figure...HE IS SO CONFUSED....<P>There has been another trauma in our lives involving the boys...and that is another thing keeping him home...I can't post about it...but would email...it is just way too private...I know...I've bared so much...but when it comes to children....(InShockInCali@excite.com)<P>And newwoman...keep taking the Celexa..it helped me tremendously...now I mostly need it to get through my PMS days...I can't seem to handle ANYTHING then...<P><BR>Cali

105 outgoing phone calls in one night? Wow. And "several" calls to you? Hmmm... Your H has a great EN for conversation, huh?!<P>Sorry I'm coming in on the late freight. I hope you guys got through the weekend all right with your boys and everything.<P>Don't tell me the kids are not affected by all this drama. Unfortunately dad is not being a good mentor of how to make a good husband some day... <P>And you, Cali, how are you??? Are you okay? You know, you mentioned before about being afraid that no one would want you because of your physical state (c-section, etc.), but that is the least of your worries, IMHO.<P>It often turns out that the thing(s) we fear the most in life turn out to be the least of our worries in the long run! Personally, I don't think you will have any trouble getting another man, BUT, I think you have your H's ego convinced that he's the only man for you. Funny how he has an interesting way of returning that compliment.<P>When you have had enough, you will say enough but even then, I still believe that it will be just as tough for you to let go. (Because you love this person and you will never be able to figure out why/how they couldn't appreciate it and reciprocate?)<P>What do I know? I'm just thinking out loud... <P>I just want to make sure that you are not hanging on or beating your head against a brick wall out of fear. I don't know? Fear of the future without him, fear of raising your boys alone, fear of living alone, fear of loneliness, fear of what people think, etc... If you are holding on out of fear, then he needs to go (yesterday). If you are holding on because you know that committed side of your spouse, someone who has the capacity to love you as Christ loves the Church (sacrificially, redemptively, and unconditionally), then fight, girl! Fight the good fight of faith until the bitter end, and after you have done all you can to remain standing, STAND... Don't back off and never let the enemy see you sweat. I support your MB efforts.

BTDT--clarification<P>The 105 phone calls were over a period of a month...1/2 of them were during the week we were in Vegas when he was in deeeeep....<P>I guess I should see progress in that 1/2 of the calls were spread out over a three week period and that for once in the last 6 months he didn't go over his minute limit (700)!<P>Cali

Cali--<P>As others have said I am coming in late in the game here but I wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you. I understand where part of your fear is coming from as we have talked about that. Don't let that stand in the way tho of what is right for you. Plan B does sound like something that is going to have to happen but like the others said you have to do it for the right reasons and at the right time. <P>Take care and I'll be thinking about you!! <<<HUG>>>----KID

Dear Cali,<P>You are certainly going through a lot. Seems like you are dealing with similar issues with me. We have been trailing each other through this whole mess haven't we?<P>Now Cali, I don't want to get your hopes up but my H also wore out his welcome and is only now coming around. Will you H have to go to that extreme also? Cali, I went through physical torture. Part of it I allowed to happen to myself, other parts of it I could not stop. <P>As of now, I can not say recovery is guaranteed. I am still living day to day. Wondering if or when. Yet H seems to be getting stronger. Not much, just a little, the steps are quite small but constant. <P>You let him prove it to you. You step back and let him show you that he deserves his family. Step back Cali and watch. Reassess your priorities. You know the procedures and you have seen the paths taken by others. <P>Now is time to let go of his needs and concentrate on yours and yours alone. It will hurt, you may suffer more before it gets better. It will get better for you. If it gets better for your H, it is because he is fighting for his life and that of his family. <P>Hug your little boys, they are a part of you that no OW or WS can take away. There is where your strength lies. Also, you have the opportunity to have the greatest power of the universe on your side. Don't under estimate that power. <P><BR><<<<hugs to you and your family>>>><P><BR>Take care,<BR>L. <BR>

Cali,<P>How are you doing?<P>L.

I am fine...<P>Am huge into thinking mode...<P>Took a really long bath and read some of a novel...has been awhile since I have felt like reading a novel...used to read those romance novels...not 'bodice rippers,' more contemporary authors such as Nora Roberts, Barbara Delinsky, etc. Also like a few lighthearted mystery writers like Diane Mott-Davidson...she writes really funny 'food' mysteries...her main character is a caterer...<P>I also like Sue Grafton's 'alphabet' series because it is based in a town very much like Santa Barbara...fun to read books set in place of which you know...<P>Otherwise I am about to turn in...it is our first 'five' day work week...boy am I a wimp after a summer of 'nothing.'<P>Thinking...thinking...thinking...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Ok Cali,<P>Get some rest. Will check back tomorrow. <P>Bye teach!!! <P>L. <BR>