SEM,<BR>I am sorry for your pain. I haven't felt like Plan A..ing either. My husband comes over and I look like crap and I think, so what? What is he going to do? leave me? don't do me any favors. I think you need your space from KS. She needs to allow you to feel the anger and withdrawal. <P>I don't know - this is just a hunch...but for me, my husband got caught and ALL my friends rallied to his side because he was heart broken about what he had done and my reaction (I filed for divorce). Well poor baby, he brought it all on himself. and for me I felt betrayed by my friends for supporting him and I felt like I was made out to be the bad guy for "not wanting" to work on the marriage. you have been here all along and I was thinking you maybe feeling betrayed by your MB friends. <P>I think if you don't want to work on the marriage than move to Plan B. Be angry, you have a right. I was gungho divorce for 3 months and I lost friendships because of it. I feel like everyone should have left me alone and let me feel my anger. Let me feel the safety of contemplating divorce. Let me feel like I have choices. Then they would see, I eventually came around. Now that we're talking reconciliation I still am mad at my friends. I don't need a fair-whether friend who is there for me when I live my life according to the way they think I should life it (working on my marriage).<P>Understand that I do hope you and KS can work it out. I am not pro-divorce. But sometimes contemplating it can empower you to recover first. then work on the marriage. when you feel like your choices are being taken away and you do not have a choice but to stay in the marriage then there is turmoil within. <P>MB please pray for their marriage but let SEM know it is his choice and we love him regardless of his decision. <BR>

Notheard,<P>Thank you so much, and I thank all of You MBers out there for your support! This place has been so helpful and caring, and a great place to vent. <P>I never thought that you guys were betraying me, I am sorry if that is how I sounded. I am just angry, and sad...I am not sure which one I feel more, but either way it doesn't feel good.<P>I can't even tell my W I love her b/c I really don't know if I feel that for her right now. <P>thank you for your support notheard, I really don't know what else to say.

Notheard,<P>You still sound angry for alot of things. I would be hurt if SEM chose to divorce out of anger. Don't you think you should have gave it more time before divorcing?<BR>In the bible it says you can divorce if your spouse cheats on you. I know I screwed up, but I want him to take it slow and easy and decide when the dust settles. I know he is very angry. I expect that. Yes I want my pity party too, but I don't think that he has to leave for us to solve anything.<BR>Sorry if I sound angry, but that hurt me.

SEM,<P>It is, as you probably know, perfectly fine for you to go through this period of anger. It is something you absolutely must allow yourself to feel. If you don't let it out, you are not being true to yourself, and it will surely build up and come out anyway in mega force. Now what follows is not intended to hurt you, put you down or flame you in any way. I just hope I can provide a little insight into why you feel so angry. (I know you think you already know why, so if I seem presumptious, forgive me!!!)<P>I have read, though, that anger is related to fear. That our fears are expressed in an angry way. You are probably afraid that there is more to KS's past that she isn't telling you, and you are afraid to move ahead because you don't WANT anything else to have happened in the past. And you don't want anything else to happen in the future. So you show anger, but you are afraid.<P>You are afraid to trust her when she says she loves you because you think she would never have done that to you if she did. So you show her anger. You don't believe her, because to you she has been living a lie and dragging you into it as company, so you lived a lie, too. So you are afraid.<P>You are afraid to show her you are vulnerable, so instead you show her anger. You are afraid because she has already hurt you, and if you are vunerable, won't she be able to hurt you easier? So you are afraid.<P>You are afraid that all your dreams for the future have been shattered by her revelations, so you show her anger. You feel cheated out of a predictable outcome to this whole process...nothing is now foreseeable in your eyes, and so this makes you angry. Because you are afraid.<P>Being able to admit that you are afraid of all these things, as well as angry about it may help you come to terms with how you feel. <P>You are angry because your feelings for your wife have been altered by her actions. That someone else can influence how you feel is a scary thing. So you are afraid. <P>I know she has now been totally honest with you. Would you be able to share your fears with her? Sit her down and point by point tell her what this has meant for you and how it makes you feel? You may have tried to do this already, I don't know, but if so I suspect it was with an angry voice. Can you try it now with your more vulnerable one?<P>I don't know...she says she loves you, she is so sorry and she sounds like she wants to help and be there for you. She is saying many things to you that we all wish our WS's will someday say to us. She needs to know how you feel about this so she can assist you in this process...and show you that what she says she means. If you close your heart off, you will never know.<P>Just my 2 cents.<P><BR>

Sem & KS,<P>Sem, I know this is your thread. Like yourself, there is a lot of anger but step back in time with me a bit. KS came and revealed 1 A. Then when all came out you now have the truth in front of you. If you were to do it over again, would you want the truth or not? <P>When we used to state, we wanted honesty, did we say how? Probably not. I know I did not. I just wanted honesty. Well Sem, now you have it. No one promised it would be pretty or nice. <P>What you are going through is your time. Your WS had her time to have anger, frustration or whatever it was that made her or helped her go out there and do what she did. <P>Now is your time of reconciliation of your feelings and then towards her. Should you have expected your anger to show through. Well actually, yes. Did you though? Probably not. Why? Because at the time we (BS) were focused on getting the WS back home, safely out of the fog. <P>KS is there now. Coming out of the fog and home with you. Should you never get angry? No. Should KS always expect you to be understanding, forgiving and basically perfect in every way? No. Should you expect the same from her? <P>Then what are you 2 suppose to expect? At this moment, expect to heal together. When one falters, learn that you can falter, admit it then lean on each other for support. You both have support here, that's a given. Now the next given, rebuild the trust so that eventually, you won't need the support from here. You will visit this site as those in recovery here to help. Is that ok? Yes. <P>Will you both get to that point in your lives? I truly hope so. Don't you?<P>Take care, I am very happy to see the progress on both your parts. <<<<<<hugs to you both>>>>>><BR>L.<BR>

Thank you Orchid, and Nina too,<P>Orchid, <P>Thank you for the encouragement. I do want to "fix" this, and get our marriage back. I am angry for many reasons, and yes I do let it show, even when I am trying not to, the anger is there and she sees it. I do not wish to let the anger control me or damage my marriage. I just hope that it will fade and the love for her will return, because I am really not feeling much love for her right now.<P>You asked if I asked for how I wanted the truth, I don't think I explained how, but rather when. I told my W when I learned of the first A, that I wanted all the truth, so that we could truly recover, and there wouldn't be anything between us. I am angry she lied for nearly three months and led me to believe that the whole truth was on the table. I told her 3 months ago,I did not want to continue if she was not being completely honest and if there was more As she was keeping from me. So, for keeping it from me when she knew how I felt about it, does make me angry. The only thing she has done by keeping this from me is more damage. <P>I am tired of being taken advantage of, and I am tired of being told half truths and outright lies. She took advantage of my trust, my commitment, and she insulted my inteligence. I knew she wasn't being honest, and that there was more to tell. I figured it out and I confronted her and she continued to lie, until I threatened to leave her, and finally she only would tell me the truth when I promised to stay. For this reason I still question if she is being compltetely honest. I question everything now. I question if there is not a more recent A that she is worried I will leave her over, so she isn't telling me. With what I know and with her behavior up until now, I don't know and will never know, so I just have to have faith in someone I don't have faith in, someone I don't trust and can't believe. <P><BR>As I have said in my previouse posts on this thread, I want to know everything So that she isn't leading me on with out full knowledge of her. I want to stay because I know everything, not because I am led to believe I know everything. <P>Nina too, <P>I think you are correct in that some of my anger is generated by fear. Yes I am afraid I will be hurt again. Yes I am afraid this has possibly destroyed my future, my dreams, my family, and my childrens future. I thank you for pointing that out, but I also feel I have anger for what has been done to me. I think the first A I learned of I may have been angry at first, but I was more hurt than anything. I felt that it was a mistake on her part to have one A. I don't feel that way this time. I feel that 1 time is a mistake, 4 times is intentional and thought out, especially when 3 of them were within a month. I also, feel anger for her leading me into a false recovery when she knew how important it was to me to have the whole truth out. I told her on a daily basis for nearly the first month that I wanted to know everything, and that she could tell me everything. I only got the truth when I threatened to leave her. This to me isn't her being open and honest, this is only giving in to save herself from being alone and losing me.<P>Yes I am greatful I have the "whole truth" out, if that is indeed what I have, but I am angry for how I had to get it, and how long it took. She made a choice to keep this secrete through nearly three months of false recovery, and led me to believe her whole heart was in keeping our marriage. I gave her every chance to come forward, but she didn't until she thought I would leave. For these reasons I feel much anger, frustration, and I don't feel much love right now. <P>I thank you all for your support and encouragement. I am feeling a lot better today I think. The numbness is going away, and I am starting to feel my fingers now. I only hope I will start to feel the love again, and with that the motivation to keep my marriage.<P>Thank you all again.

Sem,<P>Thanks for your response. I want you to know that I do truly understand your anger. Me too. That is what led to my physical 'breakdown'. Is it a nervous breakdown? Well if it is or almost, I don't want to find out how much worse it can get. Same for you. Sem, you are in the position some are still striving to be in and still you are angry right? I understand. There are other hills and mountains of obstacles to over come in this recovery journey. <P>You and KS have each other now. Not as before but each other nonetheless. Don't forget that. There will be days where you will not be able to stand each other. Remember the posts about d/d anniversaries? Those people post because those days still have an impact on them. The road will not straighten out for us, not for a while. <P>Knowing that is knowledge and knowledge in action turns to wisdom, wisdom and knowledge is a powerful tool used in the right way. Use that knowledge, let it turn to wisdom and then in time, you will be able to look back holding KS and see your progress. You will remember your journey and one day be able to bring comfort, hope, wisdom and knowledge to a man who will come here in a position similar to your own and he will listen to your words as you recall these painful moments in your life but then give him hope. <P>L. <BR>

Ok sem, so ya got this righteous anger, big deal. So life is a pain in the patootie, no surprise. You think you are the only one who has ever been lied to? If it makes ya feel better to posture and vent, great, but if you really want the truth have her take a polygraph exam, and quit beating yourself and everyone around you up.....no offense or anything intended.<P>and as for KS, if SEM continues this bull, send him to the showers for a time out. Let him choose his anger or you, enuf is enuf, if he really wants you he will be back pretty quick. But if you allow this anger to make the slightest change in your behaviour (as in condoning/tolerateing it) you (two) have set a terrible precedent for problem resolution. There is no place for this kind of anger in a relationship. You both decide whether you want to be there, without any groveling, woe is me's, or concessions to anger. If that doesn't work, plan b, see where it goes, divorce, reconcilliation, whatever, this is ridiculous. You wanted the truth SEM, you got it, too bad not in quite the way you wanted, so you pitch a fit...for what benefit? And bs wonder why it is so hard to get the truth out of a ws. I agree, the truth is VERY important, and the best way to get it is to make the ws feel as safe as you possibly can....ALL the time, not just in your timeframe.<P>Anyways ks, I wouldn't worry much, sem isn't going anywhere, but for crying out loud, tell him everything (in case you overlooked something) and offer to take a polygraph, this anger stuff is just derailing you. For the record, I didn't tell everything either, and waited four months to do so, after major lies. I did it cause that is what I wanted to do, if my w wanted to be angry (and she was) and leave me, was perfectly ok with me. No one can allow themselves to be manipulated by anger, or threat of anger. If Ks didn't want to reveal all yet, tough sem, live with it, or forget her, don't be beating her up, she is an adult and can do (including lie) whatever she wants. Keep in mind she only lied cause you pressed her when she was unwilling to be truthful, you set this up yourself, as does every bs essentially, I don't know why you all do this, must be a bs manual somewhere. It is blatant control, on both parts (bs and ws), a stupid power struggle nothing more nothing less.<P>Most ws will tell, when they are good and ready, and feel safe doing so, trying to force the issue just causes this sort of thing (and it seems to happen over and over and over). What I finally told my wife was no comment, least wasn't lieing anymore, I told her I would tell her in due time, and I did. I think if you bs would be patient, your ws will tell eventually, and (IMO) be willing to submit to a polygraph if you really want us too. By letting us tell you when we are ready, you will be much more likely to get the truth....but keep in mind something else, you will never get the whole truth. And making that the focus, instead of whether you want the marriage to this person, and want to develop trust and itimacy, just reduced your likelihood of success. In the long run it really makes little difference what we did or didn't do, it is our future behaviour that is relevant. <P>And for everyone who feels a need to wallow in anger, keep in mind anger exists in human beings for only one purpose, to defend yourself, to fight. So if you don't intend to leave, or attack your bs, lose the anger, is a big waste of time and emotional resources, it is also not good for your health. Frankly if anyone bs or ws chooses to try and apply anger to a spouse (other than the transient friction of the moment), I'd show em the door pretty darn quick. Now if your goal is to build up a head of steam so you can leave your spouse...than anger is the tool of choice. But it only makes sense you figure out FIRST what you want, cause angry folks ain't to bright.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 15, 2001).]

WEll, thank you SnL,<P>I do appreciate your concern. I actually did look back through my posts today and was thinking how I am feeling much better now. <P>I think maybe I am starting to go through different emotions as I am still coming to the realization of what my life and marriage really are or have been. Kind of funny how some WS out there just think "get over it already", but they havn't been on the other side of things. If I were a WS who had a push over for a W and I treated her like SHI*, and didn't give a SHI* about them, I too would tell them to shut up and get over it. Unfortunately, I am the caring and loving husband that wanted nothing but a loving, honest, and faithful life with my W. Yes, I have been angry for what she did. I am angry she took me and our marriage and just gave it away like it was nothing. I am angry she lied, and continued to after she told me she was totally committed to our marraige and to recovery. I am angry that I went through nearly 3 months getting over probably the worst time of my life, and I now have to go through all that again because she like you was selfish, uncaring, and thoughtless toward the ones you claim to love. <P>Oh, and I totally disagree with you on how I forced her to be dishonest. That, I am afraid, was her choice. Just as you chose to be unfaithful and dishonest with your wife, she didn't make you be unfaithful, so therefore she didn't make you keep the truth from her.<P>Thank you again SnL.

Well hello SNL, send Sem to the showers? A bit unempathetic aren't you? Are you implying that BS's need not have a withdrawal and not feel or show anger? <P>If that is true, no wonder the WS gets to manipulate, lie, cheat and steal...... yep even steal. The BS can't even cry or feel angry. What right to does the WS have to 'control' the BS in this regard? <P>Listen to what a wise man said: "All things, therefore that you want men to do to you, you must also likewise do to them." <P>So if you don't want to be manipulated, then don't manipulate. The BS is told that over and over and over again. Then the WS reminds us over and over and over again that no one can 'control' them, the WS can go do as they please and no one can stop them. OK..... but heaven forbid a BS step out of line? A BS can't show pain and sorrow? A BS can't show anger? A BS can't wonder if it is really worth it? <P>You want a plastered smile? A fake acceptance? Go visit your OP. <P>You are dealing with real people with real feelings who have been hurt. Not by their choice but by (in most cases) the one they loved and trusted the most. Yes, I will grant you the fact that BS's have faults, haven't meant a perfect WS yet, have you? So go past the finger pointing. <P>Help these 2 heal. Should KS have to put up with SEM's recovery as well as Sem having to put up with KS? Yes. Just as the A lasted longer in KSs mind because she knew about it longer does not mean that Sem has to be at the same place in recovery as KS. They are at different stages, they need to recognize that. You and thinker are in different stages, my H & I are in different stages. Most of the BS/WS couples are in different stages. Unless the BS was with the WS every step of the way on this A thing and present of all the exchanges of whatever. <P>Now, we should not let our anger spill over to these 2. Let's help them. OK?<P>L.<P>

Thank you Orchid.

snl,<P> Man, you are a cold, ruthless, S.O.B. With that attitude you will get,eventually, just what you seek from your own M. No more to say to you on the subject. <P> SEM, <P> Your anger is justified. KS knows this is true. Just remember that it must start to taper off or you will lose your marriage. Right now you don't know if that would be all bad. I understand that. BUT, KS is correct in that it would not be for the right reason for the M to end. Do take some time out to get your head together. Only then will you be making decisions based on your heart, not your head(or anger). <P> You know that I am in the same boat as yourself. The ONLY difference is that I am not gonna let my anger rule my thoughts or my actions. Not that I think you will either in the end. It does seep to the surface sometimes and it only causes problems for me when it does. <P> Stay Strong<P> jd<P>

sem...WEll, thank you SnL,<P>snl...Ok thanks, do you mean it? <P>I think maybe I am starting to go through different emotions as I am still coming to the realization of what my life and marriage really are or have been. Kind of funny how some WS out there just think "get over it already", but they havn't been on the other side of things. <P>snl...I am not in complete agreement (with the theory) that one must experience every possible human experience in order to have a fair sense of how something might be. I personally do not advocate just get over stuff (whether it be as a bs, or any other difficulty in life), rather I advocate understanding stuff, and acting accordingly. <P>sem...If I were a WS who had a push over for a W and I treated her like SHI*, and didn't give a SHI* about them, I too would tell them to shut up and get over it.<P>snl...??<P>sem...Unfortunately, I am the caring and loving husband that wanted nothing but a loving, honest, and faithful life with my W. <P>snl...Is good you think well of yourself, do your actions allways support this assessment?<P>sem...Yes, I have been angry for what she did. I am angry she took me and our marriage and just gave it away like it was nothing.<P>snl...No one can give a marriage away, that is useless imagery. A marriage is always exactly what it is supposed to be, a reflection of the reality of the idividuals living it.<P>sem...I am angry she lied, and continued to after she told me she was totally committed to our marraige and to recovery. <P>snl...Sure, but you contributed to this cause you incorrectly assessed your wifes capacity for honesty, and I suspect cause you leaned on her pretty hard as well.<P>sem...I am angry that I went through nearly 3 months getting over probably the worst time of my life, and I now have to go through all that again because she like you was selfish, uncaring, and thoughtless toward the ones you claim to love.<P>snl..No offense (really) but if this is the worst you have to go through in your life, you are far ahead of at least 3 billion other human beings....what do you think? Tell me you would trade your life now for that of say........ummmm... a somalian. This will no doubt irritate some, (and I have irritated many in my time thusly), but we have it so good as americans who even have the opportunity to find love and marriage and have families etc. that I just can't make the connection to my life is so awfu. Yes this is not much fun, for bs or ws, I have my share of woe is me, depression, thinking about jumping off bridges.... but the fact is we (all of us pretty much) have it pretty good by any human yardstick you can think of. <P>sem...Oh, and I totally disagree with you on how I forced her to be dishonest. That, I am afraid, was her choice.<P>snl..Did I say forced? I may have, I retract it. She did choose to lie. That was not my point though.<P>sem...Just as you chose to be unfaithful and dishonest with your wife, she didn't make you be unfaithful, so therefore she didn't make you keep the truth from her.<P>snl...Of course not, I choose too, it is my choice (as it is everyone's) how and when to reveal anything, but of course I must suffer the consequences too. I suspect if ks had not lied, but simply said she was not ready to tell the truth, but promised to in due time, you would have accepted that.<P>Orchid...Well hello SNL, send Sem to the showers? A bit unempathetic aren't you? Are you implying that BS's need not have a withdrawal and not feel or show anger?<P>snl...I do understand the pain leann, but sometimes one needs a more firm response, plenty of folks had commiserated, I figured maybe he would like to hear a somewhat different assessment of his behaviour. I was well intentioned, I do think his anger is excessive. I have no objection to anyone showing emotion, but I have serious problems with coercive anger, sem sounded coercive. Maybe I was mistaken, but it had a righteous, ultimatum type tone to it. So I thought maybe he would appreciate my opinion (with which he can do as he will of course).<BR> <BR>orchid..If that is true, no wonder the WS gets to manipulate, lie, cheat and steal...... yep even steal. The BS can't even cry or feel angry. What right to does the WS have to 'control' the BS in this regard?<P>snl...No one gets to coerce, the bs has the right to leave anytime they so choose, and it bemuses me sometimes with the stuff bs do put up with. I just don't think anyone should respond to coercion of anykind, be it guilt, self-pity, lies etc. From a ws standpoint the bs has plenty of manipulative tools as well, and that was sorta my point. Makes no difference who does it, it is always wrong. <P>orchid...Listen to what a wise man said: "All things, therefore that you want men to do to you, you must also likewise do to them."<P>snl...Makes no sense leanne. So if a ws wants to leave, they should mistreat the bs, so the bs will mistreat them too? <P>orchid...So if you don't want to be manipulated, then don't manipulate. The BS is told that over and over and over again. Then the WS reminds us over and over and over again that no one can 'control' them, the WS can go do as they please and no one can stop them. OK..... but heaven forbid a BS step out of line? A BS can't show pain and sorrow? A BS can't show anger? A BS can't wonder if it is really worth it?<P>snl...Not can't, anyone can do whatever they want. My point is always the same, what works what doesn't. Or as bramblerose keeps saying (she is truly a voice in the wilderness oft times) does the bs want to be right, or be married? In other words there are other golden rules too, one is practice what you preach. <P>orchid...You want a plastered smile? A fake acceptance? Go visit your OP.<P>snl...?? <P>orchid....You are dealing with real people with real feelings who have been hurt. Not by their choice but by (in most cases) the one they loved and trusted the most. Yes, I will grant you the fact that BS's have faults, haven't meant a perfect WS yet, have you? So go past the finger pointing.<P>snl...Again is about what works, and what doesn't, anger is useless unless you intend to hurt someone with it. Not about faults, all have them, and we choose to forgive/accept each other or not. Yes leanne, real people hurt, the ws are real people too.<P>orchid...Help these 2 heal. Should KS have to put up with SEM's recovery as well as Sem having to put up with KS? Yes. <P>snl...I am, is my goal, as I do things. I am not much on posturing of any kind including my own. I know I tend to be far more analytical then most, and I cut to the chase re emotions often, is how I do things, is only one way, I may not be right, and folks can do what they will with my thoughts, but my goal is to help. I disagree with ks having to "put up" with anything, she should only do so if she wants to, as should we all. Of course that is what we do, since none of us are made to do anything. My point is ks may have more success with recovery and marital harmony by putting boundaries on her acceptance of sems expression of anger.<P>orchid...Just as the A lasted longer in KSs mind because she knew about it longer does not mean that Sem has to be at the same place in recovery as KS. They are at different stages, they need to recognize that. <P>snl..agreed.<P>orchid...You and thinker are in different stages, my H & I are in different stages. Most of the BS/WS couples are in different stages. Unless the BS was with the WS every step of the way on this A thing and present of all the exchanges of whatever.<P>snl... yes, and one should take that into account, but there are limits. There is only so much woe is me I will accept from thinker, and when she goes too far (IMO), I tell her so. She can do what she wants, but so can I, I can leave, and I would if she exceeds my boundaries. As will she if I exceed hers. My point is both set boundaries, not just one. <P>orchid...Now, we should not let our anger spill over to these 2. Let's help them. OK?<P>snl...Me? Angry? (hurt look)...Nah, rarely, I was just presenting another point of view, not angry at all, just chose a firm tone, which is usually best with angry folks IMO. I wish em both the best.<P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 15, 2001).]

sem would you plz tell me if I offended you, or you thought my remarks were meant to be anything but helpful. I do try to speak my mind with my particular sense of reality, for whatever good it does. But I realize this is basically a support board (which sense varies from person to person), so if you would prefer (did not find my post supportive), I will not post to you. Myself, I prefer a variety of viewpoints, frankly (but sincerely) presented, I sometimes forget that is not necessarily what others here seek.

Ok SnL,<P>I have read through your response to me, and I think you are jumping to judgment. First of all, I think you and I agree that I am angry and that is what sparked this little topic.<P>Have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever been in a physical fight with a freind or someone close? Say this person came up and punched you in the nose for no reason... Would you be angry? Most people would. Would you have your feelings hurt a little bit, or maybe a lot? I think most people would. You seem to be a little less of an emotional type person...So this is a good way to look at being cheated on by your best friend or I call her my W.<P>You asked if I had any part in the condition of our marriage that caused KS to cheat on me. Yes, I did have a part to play. I was very busy with work and trying to make money and a home for our new family. I also was mistreated at the time as well. KS was more interested in going out with her friends and having fun. I didn't feel I was given the attention and I know MY need for sex wasn't being fullfilled...So I think we both played a part. I however didn't go out and find another woman. I stayed faithful while she went out and had 4 men. Is that fair? Life isn't fair I know.<P>To tell KS that she shouldn't put up with my anger is IMO saying that it isn't fair for me to be angry. Well, I feel it is time for me to take back. I think it is my time to deal with this as I please. I am angry, but I am not throwing things, I am not yelling, I am typing on this computer to take my aggressions out. I erase more than I post so you would be supprised how much typing has actually saved my sanity.<P>Yes, I am not in a third world country, and I do not have to dodge bullets on the way to work in the morning. So, in my pathetic little life, this has been the toughest thing I have had to deal with. I have seen and done a lot in my life and I can say nothing I have done compares. I don't think it would have been as hard on me if I hadn't had my whole heart in my marriage. <P>You ask if I actually appreciate your posting to me. Yes, I do appreciate anyone who posts to me. I think you are a little less than empathetic or sympathetic to some...That just seems like you. I find your way off point of view almost a study and it is interesting. I question if you are for real, or if you are just trying to stir people up sometimes, but you are interesting either way. I think if you were to try to be a little more sympathetic to peoples feelings you would be heard by more people, when you are not, people tend to shut you out. <P>Thank you SnL

Well said SEM. I also felt SNL was quite harsh in response to you, and made your anger and pain look like small things. I'd like to see his if his response would be the same if he was the BS, if he had felt the pain of this kind of betrayal, then he might be more empathetic.<P>I like this site because mostly I find honest answers (and you can't say SNL isn't speaking from his honest place), but also because there is usually compassion and friendship in replies, and we all need some of that here.<P>When you are so down, and angry, and sad and depressed, you don't need someone telling you to get over it. You KNOW you will, but right now you need the help of your MB friends....that is why we post, and mostly responses are very comforting.<P>So that is why I say this:<P>Sad_n_lonely...sometimes you need to put some kids gloves on and treat those with suffering with some dignity, compassion and respect. And if you are unable to do that, maybe you shouldn't be posting replies to people in obvious pain.

SEM,<P>You have to remember that SNL is the spokesman for WSs everywhere who want their cake and eat it too. His opinion seems to be that the BS has to shut up and put up so as to not offend the WS… a gross misinterpretation of MB and Plan A.<P>Be very careful about taking advise from someone who is not really working on recovering their marriage to a healthy state. <P>There are many here who have been through what you are going through are in successful recoveries.<P>That said….<P>My H had multiple affairs so I understand a lot of what you are dealing with. There are several things that I think have helped me/us deal with it.<P>I view the affairs as one incident. They were all part of the same unresolved problem. He was stuck in a very unhealthy place emotionally. There is an element of sexual addiction to all this. You may want to take a look at the book “Out of the Shadows” and others by Patrick Carnes, PhD. It is a perverted attempt to fill the empty soul with love. Hopefully your wife has truly told you all and she was not stuck there for a long time.<P>As hard as it has been sometimes, I have made a point of treating my H in the manner I would like to be treated if it had been me who had the affair.<P>It is true that it takes the BS a long time to learn to trust the WS again. This trust has be earned back by the WS. But it is also true, as others here have told you, that the WS has to learn to trust the BS. WSs are usually afraid that the BS will use the truth to retaliate and hurt them back. Remember that the WS is usually very ashamed and torn up by their behavior. They usually do not understand it themselves. During the first week after our D-day someone wisely counseled me that I had to earn my WS’s trust. This revelation stopped me in my tracks. After some reflection I told him some thing like: “We are all human and as such can all make mistakes or bad choices. I know that you are afraid to trust me right now. Know that I will never us anything you tell me to hurt you. I love you and to work with you got get through this and repair our marriage.“<P>At first my H was not telling the truth to “protect me” and probably to cover his behind too. Like you, every time I found out a new bomb it devastated me. Finally I told him that each time he tells a lie to protect me to me it is only a lie. It does not protect me. Instead it is only further proof that he is a liar and cannot be trusted. A lie nothing more then a lie. It took him a bit to buy into this… he had see my reaction each time I caught him in a lie. And he had to read the book Surviving an Affair. Most of all I had to show him that it was safe for him to tell me the truth. But eventually he got it. <P>By being safe to tell the truth I do not mean that I swallowed my anger and hurt. I expressed both of these (and all sorts of other emotions). But I always thanked him for telling me the truth and told him that despite my anger and hurt, his telling me the truth made me love and respect him more. This was/is not baloney. After all we have been through I do love and respect him more today then ever because I recognize the strength of character it took for him to look me in the eye and tell me what he did, apologize for it and take his punishment. He proved to me that he was indeed that man I thought I’d married.<P>As for showing emotions, my counselor told me that part of the punishment a person must endure for having an affair is to answer all of the BS’s questions over and over again until the BS is satisfied. They must also listen to the BS tell them of their anger over and over again until it subsides. My H (SeenTheLight) and I discussed this. We agreed that it was not a LB for me to ask my questions and express my anger. He was a saint… for three months we discussed his affair daily for 1-4 hours. When I was angry he listened to me and acknowledged it. When I was hurt and cried he held me and comforted me. We also talked about his feelings. Many times we cried together and comforted each other. I let him know that I appreciated the he would do this. It was hard for him. I know it was. It was however the most wonderful gift. We have become so much closer because of this. We know each other better then we ever would have. Today we are truly each other’s befriends and confidants.<P>Next week we will be 6 months from D-day. Today we have a stronger, richer marriage. I love and respect him more then I did on the day that we got married. While I wish my H had never put us through this, I would never want to go back to where we were. The growth in our relationship is worth the path we took. We are both better people and have a better marriage because of it. <P>I hope this helps you in some way. <P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

SNL,<P>You are quit the interesting person. I understand why SEM is angry and hurt. I expect that and nothing less. Ya it hurts to see him angry and so full of pain. It's hard to deal with, but I want more than anything to help him deal with his emotions and get over this as soon as we can. I figure the more I answer his questions and stand by him no matter what he is feeling hte faster and better we can get over this. I think putting up boundries will only delay the healing process.<P>Do you really love your W? DO you want to repair your M? Do you still have feelings for OW? Do you still have contact with OW? I ask these, because I can't imagine why feel the way you do. You seem so negative.<P><BR> Zorweb,<BR>Thanks so much for your post. It really helps and makes it easier to understand when someone else has been through it. It reminds me of what i should be doing to help out my H. thanks again. Sherry

sem...I have read through your response to me, and I think you are jumping to judgment. First of all, I think you and I agree that I am angry and that is what sparked this little topic.<P>snl...I don't judge. I just respond to whatever sense I have from what has been presented, understanding that people will use my response as they will. I may of course be mistaken (by my own bias, or just the difficulty of presenting all the relevant info in this setting), and that is probably what you meant. My hope is that if so, people simply respond with clarifying stuff, then maybe one replies again and so forth and so on. I can understand that if one asseses a respondent is malicious, and hurtful on purpose, their response is of no value, but that actually seems rarely to be the case. What instead ruffles folks feathers is different expectations, and they get all upset and start being insulting, sarcastic, whatever (and not saying you did at all).... then THEY are the wrong ones cause that is a deliberate unpleasantness. Happens on all discussion boards pretty regular. <P>I have two policies, one is to not be baited into a flame war, so I don't defend myself in that fashion (or defensive at all, only clarification if it seems helpful, like here this time, otherwise I just stop). I mean everything I say to anyone, to be helpful, even if I use an aggressive tone, letting it degenerate into flames would make me wrong too. Second is to assume everyone responding to me means me no illwill, even if they do get a little rude, I just won't be rude back, and will tolerate some. On the rare occassions someone truly mistreats me, I will just ignore them (after maybe asking one time about their motivations). There are of course some general rules and expectations of public decorum, especially in the use of crude language, sarcasm, and put-down types of wording. To that end many folks try real hard to um...... make their posts "nice", and that is ok, I worry less though about nice and believe it more useful sometimes to also express intensity (but in a civil manner), this is what usually gets me in trouble, because invariably someone (not necessarily the person I post too) will get all offended and start posturing, frankly I have no idea why, what good does it do? <P>On the other hand, this is a very emotional board, and displaced anger is common, so trying to avoid setting someone off is a good thing too, everyone has enough misery in their life allready. All in all it requires a balance, I try to find that balance as best I can, and still convey all the help I can, which does include information that is conveyed by words, as well as tone. Everything I post (almost without exception) I choose the words very carefully (and dispassionately), they are not accidental. I fully expect to be at odds with people in public discourse, but I also expect my motivations not be questioned, as I give no cause for anyone to assess I am an unsensitive troublemaker (or troll). I get no benefit (in fact it distresses me) out of upseting anyone, and in my world, the greatest respect one can give, is to share ones straigtforward opinion/feelings/experience with another. I prefer the unvarnished truth, content, and intensity. The intensity helps me gauge the committment the respondent has to what they are saying, and a reality check on how I am presenting myself.<P>sem...Have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever been in a physical fight with a freind or someone close? <P>snl...Yes.<P>sem...Say this person came up and punched you in the nose for no reason... Would you be angry? Most people would.<P>snl..True, most would. Not me. On the few occassions this has happened, my primary response was puzzlement, and curiosity...I am a why person sem, it is how I am put together. But yes, I have also been angry with people, and it scares me when I am, I do not like anger at all.<P>sem...Would you have your feelings hurt a little bit, or maybe a lot? <P>snl...My feelings are rarely hurt (in that sense), cause it is a useless emotion IMO, so I resist giving in to such feelings. But I do get sad, discouraged, despondent.<P>sem...I think most people would. You seem to be a little less of an emotional type person...So this is a good way to look at being cheated on by your best friend or I call her my W.<P>snl..I am not saying being angry is inappropriate, my post was about not dwelling on it. One cannot help feelings, I have learned that, but one can choose how they respond to those feelings, or how one allows another to treat them re feelings. I do not believe in unrestricted venting, and my standards for allowing anger are very very low. You get a little bit, and that's it. Let me give you a little insight into snl's world. When I deal with angry people, my policy is set in stone, I will not get angry back, I will try to talk softly and act in a non-threatening manner, and I will do absolutely nothing they ask in anger. But I will make it clear I have some patience till they calm down, and that I will then listen and fairly negotiate with them. IMO anger is only for fighting, and BRIEFLY for getting someones attention. If that is unacceptable and the anger continues, I will either go to war with them, no holds barred, or I will ignore/leave them. I will not listen too, or tolerate an angry person in my presence. It is really quite remarkable to watch an angry person deal with this, they usually get over the anger real quick when the realize the stakes involved.<P>sem...You asked if I had any part in the condition of our marriage that caused KS to cheat on me. Yes, I did have a part to play. I was very busy with work and trying to make money and a home for our new family. I also was mistreated at the time as well. <P>snl...I meant a part in the truth-telling/committment phase with ks, I suspect you laid down ultimatums, and were pretty intense... a form of anger...or played the woe is me card...I doubt you thought much about ks state of mind, or whether she was ready to tell you the truth, I suspect it was about you. This is stuff is not so obvious sem, and sometimes I am wrong, for sure. But in trying to look past the posts people make here, and get a real sense of what is happening psychologically I have observed some interesting stuff. It is easier with the men, (cause I am one), but IMO I often see an element of control on the part of male bs. Is easy of course to see in the ones who go ballistic and start making obvious selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. <P>But I see it often enough in the "nice" guys, who just want to love their wives, work hard, make a nice life..... and just can't understand why their wife wandered, but are gonna be big-hearted, change themselves some.... and all will be well..... as long as the wife does what she is "supposed" too...hmmmmmmmmm. And typically when she doesn't good old anger rears it's ugly head. I get a little sense from you that you are determined to make your life be a certain way, and are trying make your wife follow your sense of that. This may be partly why she wandered in the first place, not just a EN thing, but some of us humans (and it is a commonality I see in ws) are just gonna resist that, following your plan, which of course is for our own good...right? It is easy to hide behind that sem (and I don't mean any of this is deliberate), to never dig deep enough to really understand it, to understand what truly motivates sem. <P>If you really love your wife for who she is, you will love her all the time, even when she messes up, and you will never hit her with anger. There were other responses you could have made at this juncture, that you are angry and so angry is in my mind....significant. Blowing it off is up to you, but IMO bs who just figure they are entitled to anger are doing themselves a diservice, maybe a big diservice. My purpose was to get you thinking about that. There are reasons why you are angry, specific reasons, and they are not the ones you have posted IMO. I think at least in part you are trying to project power over ks.<P>As for mistreatment, I think such sentiments are self-serving (and believe me, I use to wallow in this stuff for years, by any standard I was sorely mistreated by my w). But I came to understand feeling mistreated was a waste of time, and only served to motivate me to fight back. Instead I shifted to trying to understand the behaviour, first to ascertain whether it really was mistreatment (often an eye of beholder thingy), and then to understand why, and finally what to do about it.<P>sem...KS was more interested in going out with her friends and having fun. I didn't feel I was given the attention and I know MY need for sex wasn't being fullfilled...So I think we both played a part. I however didn't go out and find another woman. I stayed faithful while she went out and had 4 men. Is that fair? Life isn't fair I know.<P>snl...It is your opinion she was more interested. And that is a trivialization of some complex psychological interactions between you, but it served the purpose of self-pity, woe is me, and that affects your actions, usually not in a good way IMO. As for SF EN, you may know how I feel about that from my threads, I don't think it is an EN to be met, I think it is a reflection of love, and the quality of the marriage, in other words you always get exactly the amount of sex you should be getting (deserve) although it may not be what you want. As for going out to find op, neither did your wife (probably, unless she is a sex addict), what she did do is choose op when the circumstances enabled her to, again that is the consequence of a whole lot of things, and as you noted you both played a role. Is it fair? Of course not, by the unreasonable expectations we make of marriage (which said expectations gaurantee affairs, but that is another thread). <P>IMO an affair is often as much (if not more) about the failure of the marriage than it is the individual....and yes, one can blow that off cause I am a ws, but believe it or not, even ws have brains and can think, and that is my intellectual assessment of human behaviour. Being a ws is not something to be desired, but if one is there, one can use the experience to learn, and I have learned alot. Same for bs, and in most part, I think we are learning the same things. I am not defending affairs, or lieing. Clearly ks made a significant error in her life, and did betray you. Concealing it sure gives concern that she is a major conflict avoider, and maybe even that she is opportunistic, and incapable of loving anyone but herself. As I understand it, she never did admit it, you figured it out and pressured her. Now she is remorseful, but one can only wonder how remorseful (willing to change herself permanently) she really is, vs just giving you what you want cause it is in her immediate interest to do so, and dumping you 10 years from now or something. I sure don't mean to minimize your concerns, they are huge, but the anger does not help. If she is to heal, if you are to have her uncoerced love, she must be totally free to do so, not fearful of hurting or angering you. You are setting up bad parterns if you persist in the anger. IMO you should sincerely (if you can) apologize for the anger, and any "mistreatment" you gave ks, that also goes a long ways towards her feeling safe and trust for you, and helps her heal. I just don't care much for righteous anger sem, plain and simple, does no good for anyone, and to just say well I am entitled to be angry, and express it, is pure nonsense (beyond the immediate, and short-lived knee jerk reaction we all experience when blind-sided by life).<P>sem...To tell KS that she shouldn't put up with my anger is IMO saying that it isn't fair for me to be angry. Well, I feel it is time for me to take back. I think it is my time to deal with this as I please. I am angry, but I am not throwing things, I am not yelling, I am typing on this computer to take my aggressions out. I erase more than I post so you would be supprised how much typing has actually saved my sanity.<P>snl...I know that sem, and I realize that many bs use this place to be more aggressive/ect. I think that is a good thing. I (and others) just have no way to fully assess your real life behaviour, so this is all just food for thought, and about your mindset. I too am much more intense here than I am with my w. Sometimes I am chastised as if I dump all my ws stuff expressed here, on her all the time, tormenting her etc.... I don't. (but of course she reads here, and gets distressed, I have suggested she not read my posts, and she doesn't much anymore, but I do not hide anything from her, just am more sensitive about talking about volatile issues).<P>I told ks IMO not to put up with the anger, for your benefit as well. It was not a defense of ks, it is my opinion that if either party in a marriage is acting out, the other should not facillitate it. She needs to set boundaries on your behaviour, I don't think a ws owes a bs anything, that is a shakey way to reestablish a relationship. As orchid pointed out, one should treat another as they want to be treated. Thinking you are "owed" (time to take back, do what you please) does not sound like someone a person would choose to be married to does it?<P>sem...Yes, I am not in a third world country, and I do not have to dodge bullets on the way to work in the morning. So, in my pathetic little life, <P>snl....Now now....pathetic? You know I did not say or imply that, I stated a truth, we do have it pretty good sem.<P>sem....this has been the toughest thing I have had to deal with. I have seen and done a lot in my life and I can say nothing I have done compares. I don't think it would have been as hard on me if I hadn't had my whole heart in my marriage. <P>snl...Ditto in my life too, and no doubt ks, and everyone else for the most part. The point is only perspective. We tend to shrink the world down just to us when we hurt, IMO it is therapeutic to realize (intellectually) that it could be a whole lot WORSE. I enjoy self-pity as much as the next guy, I just think it is a very dangerous mindset to embrace. Fact is, life will go on, with or without your marriage, it always does, and it will be better either way, IF one has the right attitude. So IMO, some crying, and gnashing of teeth, even some anger, are certainly appropriate. But a successful life depends on positive thinking, not woe is me, and there is way too much woe is me here, for good mental health. So I do my part, and try to provide balance, by NOT being too sympathetic, instead I try the do you want to live or die thingy (get your act together, and quit crying in your beer, and btw here is some "useful" advice to go along with it), realizing folks will get plenty of sympathy from others. <P>sem...You ask if I actually appreciate your posting to me. Yes, I do appreciate anyone who posts to me. I think you are a little less than empathetic or sympathetic to some...That just seems like you. <P>snl...Ok, thanks. And you are right on, I am not particularly sympathetic (nor do I seek sympathy for myself), I am a pragmatic problem solver. However, empathy is the ability to get inside someones head (emotionally speaking), and I am very good at it. A trait also borne out by a variety of psych tests. Sometimes folks get the two mixed up, one is an ability (empathy) the other is a behaviour (sympathy) they do not go together. In fact sociopaths are some of the most empathetic people around, it is why they are so good at control.<P>sem...I find your way off point of view almost a study and it is interesting. I question if you are for real, or if you are just trying to stir people up sometimes, but you are interesting either way. <P>snl...I am real. I abhor stirring someone up, my goal is for everyone to be happy and productive, pretty much a lost cause in this life, but it is the nature of idealistic romantics.<P>sem...I think if you were to try to be a little more sympathetic to peoples feelings you would be heard by more people, when you are not, people tend to shut you out.<P>snl...I realize that, it is useless to give advice if folks tune you out. I do operate on the front lines, so get shot once in awhile. I use to be a lot harder, but I have lightened up some, I am starting to feel comfortable where I am at in life (from an advocacy point), I also realize some people will never listen anyways, they are sympathy junkies. I just wish em well, and avoid em if I irritate em. <P>Thank you SnL<P>snl...You are welcome, and thx for your response as well.<P>nina...Well said SEM. I also felt SNL was quite harsh in response to you, and made your anger and pain look like small things. <P>snl...I did consider my tone carefully nina, only sem really knows I guess whether it did any good. I was indeed trying to jar him loose, and one must be firm to do so.<P>nina...I'd like to see his if his response would be the same if he was the BS, if he had felt the pain of this kind of betrayal, then he might be more empathetic.<P>snl...Everything I post is how I would behave, but of course I am not a bs, so one cannot be sure, but it would be my gameplan. And I have felt plenty of pain. I am loathe to compare pains, but you can rest assure, the pain of finally coming to grips with the fact my wife did not love me (or could not for some FOO reasons, but same difference to me), and that my life with her was going to be very lonely was not very plesant. I had dreams too nina, I came from a chaotic (and divorced) childhood. Even as a little boy I knew I wanted to make a happy family, that I would never do such things to my kids. Well I did get em raised, but it was not the happy family I envisioned. I lived with an angry (and no cause to be so) woman, who visited this anger on me, and our children. The loss of my dream too, was very painful.<P>nina...but also because there is usually compassion and friendship in replies, and we all need some of that here.<P>snl...Hey, I am compassionate, and friendly, this board reduces me to tears daily, I am just not particularly sympathetic (cause I think it is a waste of time, and actually not helpful to be overly sympathetic).<P>nina...When you are so down, and angry, and sad and depressed, you don't need someone telling you to get over it. You KNOW you will, but right now you need the help of your MB friends....that is why we post, and mostly responses are very comforting.<P>snl..I do keep that in mind nina, really. I only post such as this one to someone I think is ready for it. If I miss the mark, I will apologize, and not post anymore to em (at least on that issue).<P>Sad_n_lonely...sometimes you need to put some kids gloves on and treat those with suffering with some dignity, compassion and respect. And if you are unable to do that, maybe you shouldn't be posting replies to people in obvious pain.<P>snl...I agree nina, and it is what I try to do. I choose to interract on some very volatile issues (and in part cause I am the ws as well). And as it turns out, my track record is pretty good. Even when my stuff is annoying, often people do say they want to hear it, but I do keep a weather eye out for folks who need nothing more at this moment than support, and I leave that up to the many of you who are very good at it. But by all means, feel free to tell me when you think I missed the mark. As it turns out, sem seems to have been ok with my efforts (although he may or may not agree)...also I try to make sure I sprinkle in a few this is not to offend disclaimers, and a few well-wishing statements....do you think I need more?<BR> <BR>zorweb...You have to remember that SNL is the spokesman for WSs everywhere who want their cake and eat it too. <P>snl...Now I get to have my feelings hurt!!!!!<BR>Ya know Z, one thing about you I appreciate, you say exactly what is on your mind. Spokesman indeed, chuckle, there are many ws out there I'd like to strangle (and I have said so too), they make a bad name for us ethical ws.<P>z...His opinion seems to be that the BS has to shut up and put up so as to not offend the WS… a gross misinterpretation of MB and Plan A.<P>snl...No, I actually think the MB plan a/b are pretty much right on. btw, neither call for mistreating the ws with anger or anything else.<P>z....Be very careful about taking advise from someone who is not really working on recovering their marriage to a healthy state.<P>snl...Hmmm disrespectful judgement? Yes, I am really working, as best I can. Tell me though, is one judged thusly by their effort (internally) or only their success (externally)? But certainly we all need to be careful about taking advice from untrained folks. Anyways, I try to not so much give advice, as simply give my point of view for others to do with as they will. Sometimes that is hard to distinguish from advice though. Even so, advice relevant to being a ws would seem applicable. One thing that I have decided after all this exposure to harleyism, is that they don't have it all figured out (for a lot of reasons), and one of the lacks is they have never been a ws. Maybe I should write a book. <P>z...I view the affairs as one incident. They were all part of the same unresolved problem. <P>snl...I agree sem, just told that to thinker a while ago myself. (while discussing this thread).<P>z....As hard as it has been sometimes, I have made a point of treating my H in the manner I would like to be treated if it had been me who had the affair.<P>snl...always a good consideration.<P>z...But it is also true, as others here have told you, that the WS has to learn to trust the BS. WSs are usually afraid that the BS will use the truth to retaliate and hurt them back. <P>snl...True, and often overlooked.<P>z...Remember that the WS is usually very ashamed and torn up by their behavior. They usually do not understand it themselves. <P>snl...I think that is overstated, and a feel good bs thing. There is some guilt present, but it varies alot, and they can understand it if they will do the work, but oft times will not. Either out of conflict avoidance, or passive'aggressive behaviour. I think ws should be confronted on the whys until they (and bs) figure it out.<P>z...During the first week after our D-day someone wisely counseled me that I had to earn my WS’s trust. This revelation stopped me in my tracks. <P>snl...I have told my wife, and other bs this many times.<P>z...At first my H was not telling the truth to “protect me” and probably to cover his behind too. <P>snl..yep.<P>z...Most of all I had to show him that it was safe for him to tell me the truth. But eventually he got it. <P>snl..Safe is part, but also a ws has to realize we cannot keep the secret, it is a grave injustice to the bs, whether one divorces or not.<P>z...By being safe to tell the truth I do not mean that I swallowed my anger and hurt. I expressed both of these (and all sorts of other emotions). But I always thanked him for telling me the truth and told him that despite my anger and hurt, his telling me the truth made me love and respect him more. This was/is not baloney. <P>snl....That is fine, and is not baloney. Had you made selfish demands though, or disrespectful judgements you would also be worong.<P>z....As for showing emotions, my counselor told me that part of the punishment a person must endure for having an affair is to answer all of the BS’s questions over and over again until the BS is satisfied. <P>snl...I agree, and I practice this with thinker.<P>z...They must also listen to the BS tell them of their anger over and over again until it subsides. My H (SeenTheLight) and I discussed this. We agreed that it was not a LB for me to ask my questions and express my anger.<P>snl..I agree again, as long as it is a kinda venting, and not connected to any selfish demands. I have the same arrangement with thinker.<P>z...Next week we will be 6 months from D-day. Today we have a stronger, richer marriage. I love and respect him more then I did on the day that we got married. While I wish my H had never put us through this, I would never want to go back to where we were. The growth in our relationship is worth the path we took. We are both better people and have a better marriage because of it. <P>snl....and that is what comes of making lemonade out of lemons, and it mostly has to do with attitude. Glad it is working out for you.<P> <BR>

ks....I understand why SEM is angry and hurt. I expect that and nothing less. Ya it hurts to see him angry and so full of pain. It's hard to deal with, but I want more than anything to help him deal with his emotions and get over this as soon as we can. I figure the more I answer his questions and stand by him no matter what he is feeling hte faster and better we can get over this. I think putting up boundries will only delay the healing process.<P>snl....I agree. Is hard to know exactly what is going on when one makes replies, which is why I try to make them more of a food for thought. My additional thoughts are in other threads this morning so will not redo here. The primary point though is about being unhappy and venting (including venting in an agry manner) and using anger. I am deadset against using anger for ultimatums, intimidations, or to nurse "hurt" forever. I got a sense of righteous anger from sem, and it was to that I responded, maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong, that is for you and sem to decide. I also think anger has a season, and I think it is a very short season. I think folks who stay angry have issues...with themselves, not the object of their anger, and that was part of my point too.<P>ks...Do you really love your W? <P>snl...I don't know. I do care about her, but I don't know what love is anymore.<P>ks....DO you want to repair your M? <P>snl...No. I am open to a new one though. The old one was toxic, and beyond repair.<P>ks...Do you still have feelings for OW?<P>snl...yes. She was not some trash, and neither am I.<P>ks...Do you still have contact with OW? <P>snl...No. (stopped a month ago).<P>ks...I ask these, because I can't imagine why feel the way you do. You seem so negative.<P>snl...There are all kinds of folks here, with all kinds of feelings, and life circumstances. I suspect it is someone like lexxy who probably understands me the best. If you are madly in-love with sem, then of course it would be hard for you to understand. I try not to be negative per se, but it is hard when part of you is not happy where you are, and all you got to go on is people who don't know you saying you will be happy if you just do what we say....were life that simple *sigh*. Ya know ks, sometimes we are just married to the wrong people, not cause they (or we) are bad or defective, just cause we don't fit, and never will. At best can only achieve a plesant, tolerant, caring relationship...that is enuf for most people, unfortuneately it is not enuf for all. So what do we do? Give up our dreams so we don't hurt someone? Don't we count too? Or are we just supposed to sacrifice ourselves for the greater good? By definition just being selfish losers if we don't give up. These are the issues I struggle with ks, and I suppose they do sound negative. But ya know, I look around me, and I see so few happy, passionate marriages, I do see a lot of people just getting by, tolerating each other, not fighting, not mistreating each other, just not each others best friend, their other half, hooked at the hip.... that is how my life has been too, and it is depressing to think that may be all it ever will be, for me, and so many others. I do think people fit, and I think many married people are not with who they fit best, or even very well, and it is so sad. Let me ask you a question (the same one I ask many folks). Sem is just a guy could be anyone, you could easily find another H, so why do you love him? Is it sem you really love, or is it the marriage you love? Are you settling for sem cause you figure he is the best you can get (and he may be a very good guy, not saying he isn't). But how do you know there is not someone you would fit better, and be in-love with in that special way of oneflesh? Clearly there was some serious issues, or you would have not done what you did, you did not bond with sem when married, why now? An affair is rarely about just the person (you are not a sex addict, right? or have some other personality disorder), it is about the relationship too. People who are "in-love" do not have affairs. What if sem can never meet your EN in the way you want them met...what then? Or does it truly make no difference who we are married too, everyone on this board could just swap spouses, all committ to meeting EN for two years, and we would be happily married to that new person? That is what the MB principles imply, and frankly it scares the heck out of me.<P><BR>