Bin -- go back and read one more thing in Freddy's post.<P>He went into full description of the one time he didn't "complete" it....but keep reading...it happened again. <P>Another thing struck me in all of that....moving out for 3-4 weeks and probably not coming back. AHEM - thats not leaving for 3 or 4 weeks if you're not coming back!<P>Snap out of it Freddy -- practice what you preach.<P>

Ok, so I need to practice radical honesty but what do I tell my W - the detail (the OW was better at sex than you) or do I keep it to the basics (I slept with OW). <P>Any advice - how did you do it Lexxxy ?<P>- Freddy<P><p>[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited September 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freddy:<BR><B>my A (revenge or otherwise) complicates the whole recovery process - if there is to be one. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Only you can figure that out, but keep in mind that if you want to rebuild, you don't want to rebuild on a foundation of lies.<P>I just don't want to see OW come back 2 months later telling you she is pregnant and wants to keep your baby. OR you find out that you have a STD. There is a consequence to pay Freddy. That is just the nature of sin. We see the temptation from one angle, then when reality comes to light, all this other stuff hits the fan! Get it together and stop being corn-fused! You know what is what. You just can't deal with it.<P>What causes your confusion really? Is it the fact that your wife didn't react indifferently the way you intended so you could exit the marriage even steven? Your affair doesn't complicate things, the fact that you lied and wish not to disclose the affair is what has you conflicted. I could be wrong, just my take...<BR>

Freddy...Freddy...Freddy...<P>S3x is the biggest demon of them all...<P>In one of the books I have been reading, <I>The Mastery of Love</I>, Ruiz describes a sexual encounter between two people...one of whom is married...he describes how the sexual tension rises...how 'fear' and 'addiction' play a part in the sexual tension.<P>He ultimately says that one or both people describe the encounter as the best s3x they ever had...but that the feeling is false...that it is merely the release of tension...the fear factored in...the 'addiction' to the forbidden the creates the fog/dream of it being so good.<P>Was it what she did to you that was so good? Because I seem to remember that you did not have a 'release.' Now most men I know would not describe that kind of encounter as the best they ever had...<P>Take away the mystery...take away the newness of being with someone else and her 'creativity'...take away your fear of going against yourself...wipe away your fog/dream...get to the core of yourself...<P>Do you really need to go there? comparing...isn't it comparing apples to oranges? s3x with different people is different...even s3x with the same person can be different depending on circumstance...<P>I remember the forbiddenness of it with my H in the early days...(I was virginal)...I remember the excitement of newly married s3x...I remember the fun and sometimes not so fun s3x when we were trying to get pregnant...I remember pregnant s3x...I remember grieving s3x...angry s3x...different is different...<P><BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

You should know Freddy -- what does a BS need/want to know?<P>Go back to your early posts, cuz thats how your wife will begin feeling. Make sure you are prepared to support her the way you would have wanted to be supported.<P>My H disclosed an A to me as he was accusing me of one. Because I didn't want to be heavily questioned, I didn't question him. <P>Start with the basics. And let her ask what questions she has. Answer them HONESTLY if you want HONESTY in return.<BR>

I think the jealousy tactic you are using (whether it's intentional or not) worked to your benefit to save your marriage! And I think you should run with it if you search your soul and want to make this marriage work. I apologize I don't know your history and have only read a couple posts from you (attacking me no less - ). <P>I don't think you need to hurt your W by telling her it was better sex, but I think you need to be honest.<P>I've tried jealousy in my marriage and it has only backfired. I know if I was to have a revenge affair my H would kill the OM and leave me in a heart beat. <P>Anyway, this jealousy thing hit me while reading your thread. <P>Good luck to you as you struggle with this!<P> <P>

Hi Freddy,<BR>Why don't you just tell your W that you had sex and let her be the one to decide if she wants to hear the details. If she does then tell her you enjoyed it. Maybe then your W will want to learn how to love that way. <BR>A new begging is when everything is out in the open, nothing to hide, and to show eachother how to love eachother and enjoy it.

Free2Bme,<P>I would never attack anybody in here. It was either an opinion, an assertion, a vent or I taking issue with something. Never anything personal.<P>It's also a bad day. The W is away (again) this weekend with her girlfriends. Guess I should stop bothering. Silly me, I thought she wanted to work on her marriage.<P>Sleep tight,<P>- Freddy,<P>PS gonna change my name to the 'uselessone' :-)<P>

Good morning, Freddy,<P>I understand - ya know, I've been so bombarded with pictures and prayers, etc., surrounding Tuesday's tragedy that I didn't even blink to share that. I've alwys thought the US does too much for other countries and not enough for ourselves (just my opinion) and I thought it was nice that someone other than an American was seeing that (I didn't know that was written so long ago). We have starving children in our own country yet you see commercial upon commercial to help other countries. It's admirable that we help, but... anyway, I'm off the beaten path.<P>I'm very sorry for your situation. It appears your wife isn't that jealous if she's off again. I know I would be glued to my H (as I have been for the past 1-2 years bcs of infidelities). <P>I think my H does things to deliberately get me jealous bcs to him jealousy = love! Hmmm... maybe I should stop being so darn jealous and let him do his thing.<P>I hope you are in a better state of mind! How are you dealing with your personal infidelity emotionally? Have you said any more to your wife?<P>God Bless!<P>

Hey Fred---<P>Here will be some unpopular advice. Go and be free if that's what you want and can do it. If it doesn't feel right to be where you are and have had previous problems with your marriage, you do have a right to look for what is right. IF YOU ARE SURE. (My OM could never get out of his fog)<P>I for one don't believe that a marriage certificate is written in rock. It is okay to leave if you NEED to.

I don't know, Freddy. You don't regret it? Sounds to me that you have turned this into a justification...revenge. It also sounds like you have made up your mind already.<P>Something is scaring you into not telling your W the whole truth. What? In not regretting it means, to me, that you would do it again if given the opportunity. If you continue to associate yourself with this OW, there is no doubt in my mind that it will happen again. Sounds like you want it to?<P>You sure are defending this OW. Same thing my H did while he continued his association with her. My H was "in love" with this OW. Are you feeling that way? <P>I am with DunThat as far as the disease and pregnancy thing goes. I also think she is looking for a "replacement", I want to say. I have the unfortunate experience of being the WS and BS. Your best bet.....END IT NOW, or you will come to regret it. <P>Now you have the unfortunate experience of being both WS and BS. Now, you are either in...or out. If you keep the truth from your wife, you will never really be in it, meaning the marriage, now will you? Just like your wife isn't really in it now, is she?<P>You say you are not ready for another relationship, but it looks as though another one has started. Just sex, hunh? I am not too sure about that, especially if you keep it up Regardless, if you can't tell your W the whole truth then don't expect the full truth in return from your W. Not a good feeling, is it?<P>The way you are talking, your M has ended already and you don't even know it. WAKE UP FREDDY!!! At the end of the day you will need to ask yourself....What do I want? What are the consequences for my choices and can I deal with them?<P>Clouds

Hi guys,<P>I'm still here - did think of not coming back - but you're all so addictive <P>I'm trying to wake up - but I'm not sure what from. It's either my marriage or the A. The W comes home tomorrow night - she phoned today and it was a waste of time. I mean, we met with the marriage counsellor two weeks ago and she said 'ok, the relationship is rock bottom. You need to spend time together, alone.' My W heard all this and said, yep, I want to work on this. So, in the last two weeks we've spent one evening together. One evening!!!! and that was at the cinema where she used to hang out with the OM from her first A. I mean, hellooooooooo.<P>Guys, I've not decided on ending the marriage - I really haven't. I have the boys to consider - which is why I'm still here - and a mass of finanical committments that I can't walk away from (easily anyway). I was committed to PlanAing (as you know) and I thought it was going ok. Just got fed up of being the doormat. My A was dumb but it was also a breath of fresh air.<P>The OW isn't the answer - I'm not that stupid - but she sure is a comfort.<P>Bad day today I guess.<P>- Freddy<P>Tangent topic, everybody here has had candles in the windows for the victims of NY. A lot of public events of been cancelled as a mark of respect. <P>My brother works for IBM and he lost three colleagues on one of the planes. Plus all travel plans have been stopped. I have some American friends of mine who are travelling Europe and will visit me at home tomorrow. I haven't seen them in 10 years so I'm looking forward to it.<P>My heart goes out to you guys.<P>

Fred, I like you. You are a good guy. Be strong and remember, "you are the only one who has to wake up every day and BE Freddy."

Dear Freddy,<BR>Just thought I would pop back in and check on you. I think you know what is reality and what is fantasy. You are committed to your kids and their financial well-being and that is good. I think you had great sex with this OW, but you would have really wanted it from your W. It's nice to believe that she's "special" and all, but that is just not reality. Reality is that she jumped all over you and "devoured every part of you" after only knowing you for 3 days. What kind of woman is THAT???!!! Believe me, I know only too well...<P>"Reality" is more like OW hitting you up for child support about a year from now out of the blue... You know, after you just told your wife that all you did was kiss the spider...<P>It sounds like you have a problem with W going out with her friends for days and days rather than investing more time into your relationship. A marriage is like a baby, always needing attention. Sounds like your baby has been left neglected and starving for attention? <P>I tell you that if you keep whining about it, you might drive your wife further away instead of drawing her toward you. It doesn't sound to me like YOU personally are getting enough nurturing from her... Can you tell her this without lovebusting? Is she aware of the Policy of Joint Agreement? It doesn't sound like you were as enthusiastic about her going off with her friends as she was? She should know that she is hurting you...<P>You can save your marriage, but not through negative tactics like jealousy or manipulation or selfishness or pouting. Have you read this article by Harley on resolving conflicts? It's very interesting and helpful, please check it out:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html" TARGET=_blank>How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to your Marriage</A>

Bin,<P>Thanks for looking in and thanks for your thoughts. There are a couple of issues here which you might be able to help with.<P>I have copies of HN/HN and Love Busters – curtesy amazon. And since July , both of these publications I’ve read several times. I incorporated a lot of MB principles into my PlanA and I’ve been living these (in general) as a part of my life. As a tangent comment, I honestly feel a change in me for the better. No more angry outbursts – no more judgements (vocalising these anyway) and (normally) a positive outlook. I had my W commit to read the books and discuss the concepts. She read the first couple of chapters of HN/HN and then told me she doesn’t believe in the idea of the Love Bank and doesn’t believe in MB principles. She thinks these are exaggerated. As an example, I asked that we spend 15 hours a week, together. She asked if it had to be 15 hours, or if it could be less. Ok, I can live with all of that because it doesn’t stop me from living by (most) of what MB stands for.<P>Next issue, during the last months, she’s told me that she doesn’t love me. I told her many times a day ‘I love you’ and she says ‘don’t say that so often, you’ll wear those words out’. And all of this is ok – because I became the infamous doormat trying to regain her love. I rained flowers, cards and jewelry on her. She lapped it up. I even take her to NY for our 9th wedding anniversary – and she’s as cold as a fish. By the way, during my PlanA I’ve followed the other MB principle of having her agree to everything I’ve done. She enthusiastically agreed to everything I did. However on returning from NY, I tell her I’m moving out because I can’t live with this anymore. It’s killing me. Bingo – she then says she loves me and doesn’t want me to go. She asks if we can go to counselling for professional help, to which I say yes.<P>So, we go to counselling and discuss the ‘conflicts’ – of which one is the priority I have in her life - and we agree to spend time together. In the last two weeks that’s resulted in 1 evening at the cinema. On tuesday last week, she even has a girlfriend call and asked her if she wanted to come over for a glass of wine because her H wasn’t home. My W even asked me if this was ok !!!!!!! Like, helloooooooo. And this weekend, she leaves me alone again. Now, my W could have told her friends ‘girls, my marriage is in the crapper and I need to spend time with my H. You know, you girls are important to me but so is my H.’ BUT she doesn’t do this she says ‘it’s my girlfriends birthday and I need to go but I’ll be home early sunday.’ Then she phones Saturday and says ‘the girls are dissappointed that I want to leave early sunday so I’ll get home late sunday’. And she finally turns up at 11:30PM Sunday night. And this is only one example of what has been her modus operandi for months if not years. <P>In addition to all this, my job is under pressure. The economic downturn is affecting product roll-out and I’m under extreme pressure to make the numbers. Our family vacation is planned in two weeks time but I told my W that we might not be able to go because it’s a question of my responsibility to my work. If we don’t make the numbers, there’s a strong chance the company will fold. It’s that serious. Anyways, my W is pissed at missing her vacation so the current solution she’s happy with is that she goes on vacation with her mum and the boys and I stay here and work. <P>As much as I love the woman – I’m burnt out. She isn’t adapting or making an attempt to adapt. And she isn’t taking my feelings seriously. She continually gives me the feeling that so long as I keep feeding the bank and letting her do what she wants, the world is ok. Sorry, but that’s the state of play. Now, I can’t simply get up and leave. There’s a lot of complications. I have two boys (4 and 6) who I won’t walk away from, I have financial committments which I can’t walk away from – and I have no idea, as yet, how to solve anyway of these – and I’m not a national of the country where I live. So, it’s a complex situation.<P>My options are, 1) go back to a solid plan A and in parallel use marriage counselling to help, 2) go to a solid Plan B or 3) resign myself to the modus operandi which has been in operation for the last years and isn’t making me very happy. My mates ask me why I don’t throw her out. My brother thinks I’m a sad git. And even her mum tells me I’m too soft. So Bin, for a 41 year old man I’m a bit of a sad case really. Enuff really is enuff.<P>- Freddy<BR>

If you are burnt out, this idea of her taking the boys and going on vacation sounds great. I had a similar situation and it worked great. No chance to make LBs! and you don't have the added time of boy care. So you can really have time to concentrate on work and when you are not at work, do some thinking about what you really want without the constant pressure of the presence of your W and the obligations of having the boys around.

Ok, so here's an update for everybody - sorry to be a bore <P>Tonite we were at counselling. Note: A good thing about counselling is the professional objectivity which gets introduced into the discussions. And tonite this was very welcome.<P>I was able to vent on the events of the last two weeks, which, I'm happy to say were understood. The counsellor was able to communicate how I was feeling and my W listened!!!!! She didn't understand straight off but in the discussion which followed you could see the lights going on.<P>My W vented - doesn't like the emotional rollercoaster - and doesn't like the idea of me leaving. Feels threatened and that's making her stubborn. So, although I've been trying not to, I've still been LBing.<P>Ok, keeping it short, where to now? We were able to establish that we don't know if what we have together is a friendship or something more. Somehow, with the pressure of kids, work, family, friends, houses and all that we've lost it. We both realise this. But we both still value each other. We both know we have a lot together but neither of us knows if this is enough to sustain us for the next years. We've understood that the feelings of love in our relationship have taken a beating.<P>So, we've agreed to give it time and focus and concentrate on our marriage. This means fewer girlfriends, more time together and no mention of me leaving - and this also means goodbye OM and OW!!!! (which we didn't speak of - either of us).<P>So, I'm heading back into Plan A with the counsellor as support.<P>There's hope. You guys take care.<P>- Freddy<P> <BR>

Freddy...<P>Time...patience...consistency.<P>Trust in God's plan...and believe...let Him have the control...<P>Hard words to swallow...I have to say them every single day!<P>I'm pulling for you!<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Hey Freddyboy,<BR>Thanks for the update. Sounds like counseling went well. You are very open to the MB principles and Plan A will work when you make up your mind to work it. Too bad your W doesn't believe that YOU have a lovebank that needs deposits.<P>Perhaps you could present the MB principles to her in a different way--you know, using your own words to interpret it.<P>She wants to carry on her social life as a single woman and she simply cannot do that! Sorry, that's just not how a wife and mom of two behaves--running off for days at a time with the girls? But you are in a tight spot as you cannot control another human being with a mindset as such.<P>*sigh* What next? Looks like you figured it out because Plan B is not an option when you cannot leave or kick out the spouse! Plan A is your best bet but she needs to understand that you have a love bank that needs deposits?! <P>How can you help her understand this concept in your own words or at least in words that will mean something to her and spark action on her part. She seems to be a woman who feels love should be shown more in actions than words. Look at how she reacted to your decision to up and leave (an action), she reacted with WORDS! Her one time in a long time to say the words really touched you in a profound way!<P>You sound to me as if you are giving her what YOU need. She seems to need recreational activity and you seem to need more admiration and affection, but you give her what you need and your needs go unmet because she's taking care of her needs by going out with the girls! I could be wrong, but maybe you guys could come up with some recreational activities that you both can enjoy together? I think there is a bulletin board here with some suggestions. I think Harley lists a gang of suggestions in his book called 5 Steps to Building Romantic Love, also. <P>Glad to hear that you are recovering from your A and moving forward. Q: Is OW out of the picture? Did you IGNORE her last attempt to contact you???????? Just curious...

Whats up Freddy? <BR>Counseling sounds promising....however it doesn't sound like you've yet been honest with your W.<P>