I was just wondering about attractiveness being one of men's emotional needs. Now I really don't want to offend anyone but this kind of offends me, and it scares me. <BR>Does this mean that if and when I do gain weight (maybe because of pregnancy or medical conditions) that this will turn off my husband completely? That I'm not 'cute' anymore so he doesn’t love me anymore. How can that not be shallow? How about if I am in and accident and am disfigured in some way? Or what about when I get old? <BR>These are sincere questions that I am asking. I'm not trying to be rude or obnoxious, I'm just wondering if men really feel this way. <BR>I say this because it is listed as one of the 5 emotional needs of men and in some of these forums the men really come down hard about how they are not at all attracted to their wives anymore because of weight gain. However I think one of the emotional needs listed for women is for the husband to support them financially but I haven't seen any posts that say it is a turn off because a husband isn't doing this. (And I have read a lot of these posts).<BR>Or what about the need for men to be attractive to their wives? Because it may not be to the same extent but believe me an unattractive man can also be a major turn off.<BR>Anyway I hope someone replies, truly I do not mean to offend, I am just afraid or waking up to a man someday and having him say he doesn't want me anymore because I am not 'pretty' enough.<BR>Oh and one more thing, I am not trying to belittle anyone's problem I do realize that practically all (if not all) of the other problems with marriage that are posted on this board are more important than this one. At least I hope so.<BR>

No, folks, "Just Wondering" is not me. <P>JW, you've re-opened a powder keg with this one. I thought I was the only rabble-rouser here. <P>I've asked the very same question. For an interesting thread on this topic, go to the "Emotional Needs" board and look up JodiC's thread. Also, read my thread on "Questioning Harley Principles."<P>This one has bothered me too, mostly because of the very narrow definition of beauty that exists in American culture, which requires that women be tall, thin, slim-hipped, big-breasted, and YOUNG. <P>In HNHN, Harley says, "I am not encouraging a wife to try to look like a beauty queen."<P>[No? Read on...]<P>"I simply mean that she should try to look the way her husband likes her to look."<P>[And what if he demands that she never age and that she look like a supermodel?]<P>"She should resemble the woman he married."<P>[OK...now, to me, that means that she's not allowed to age. But then, he goes on to say...]<P>"Does that mean a woman must stay eternally young? Of course not, but getting old is not an excuse for gaining weight and dressing like a bag lady."<P>[Kind of a contradiction in terms, right? And despite the fact that some designers are waking up and realizing that there are women who want fashionable clothes who are NOT a size four, by and large, clothes are cut for women with no thighs and no hips. I wear a size 10 or 12 in a full or A-line skirt (hardly a huge size), but I can't wear slim skirts because they assume that women have no thighs.]<P>Then he talks about weight control...all well and good, but let's face it -- we all metabolize differently. Take me, for example. I do not lose significant weight on 1200 calories a day, no matter how much I exercise. And much less than that and I become psychotic. Now, I have a H who goes through times when all he wants to do is eat. He'll go out and buy a box of those nasty cinnamon rolls you get at the mall, and want me to share them with him. Well, I know I can't do that. I try to find a balance between eating like a normal person (so he and I can do things like go to restaurants) and eating the nasty, constant-salad stuff I need to keep my weight down.<P>And let me tell you something. My H and I go to Jamaica most years. And in Jamaica, I am the hottest babe on the beach. Why? Because in poorer countries, men don't have this silliness about women having to look like 12-year-old boys with balloons on their chests. In poorer, less media-centric countries, a voluptuous woman is a fertile woman, and they think it's sexy. It also means you're prosperous. Just in case you thought this madness we have in the U.S. was universal.<P>So OK, all you ladies who aren't a size 6 -- wear that maillot proudly and get your behinds down to Jamaica! It'll open your eyes.<P>Next: "Use makeup to your best advantage."<P>This gets harder the older you get, because older women look better with LESS makeup, not more. As skin tone changes and small lines appear, makeup settles in them. As you get older, less is mmore.<P>"Get a hairstyle he likes."<P>OK, sounds reasonable. But what if your H has no taste? It happens. (Same with clothes, BTW. ) My H would probably like me to wear my hair long and hippie-like, but few women over 40 can carry that off. I lucked out -- I changed my 'do based on his feedback and he likes it. But what if your H likes straight hair and you have wavy hair? <P>Next: "Clothes showcase the woman."<P>See above comments about clothes for women who don't fit the standard of beauty. However...after years of sleeping in oversized T-shirts, I have traded them in for chemises. H has never said a word either way, but I am GUESSING (and with a non-communicator, that's all you can do) that he appreciates it. But believe me, it's not easy for most normal women to get clothes to fit.<P>We won't even DISCUSS bathing suits. <P>And here's the kicker that makes me want to run out screaming with a butcher knife and kill someone:<P>"When is Cosmetic Surgery Worth It?"<P>HELLO, PEOPLE? What happened to the days when surgery was something to AVOID? Now, this is scary:<P>"I have recommended cosmetic surgery for some prematurely wrinkled women."<P>[And who decides when's premature? 30? 40? 50? 60?] <P>"While this procedure must be repeated every few years, it is relatively safe and effective. I have also recommended nose surgery if a client has an abnormally-shaped nose."<P>Ouch! Wonderful...now we have to commit to having expensive ELECTIVE surgery EVERY FEW YEARS????? I don't know about any of the men here, but my H is the worst patient in the world. No matter how sick he is, it's next to impossible to get him to a doctor. Can you imagine telling a MAN to get ELECTIVE surgery every few years??? Ha! It'll never happen. So why should we women have to put ourselves through it? And PS -- it doesn't make you any younger, it just makes you look lifted -- and ultimately, like someone else.<P>And what is an abnormally-shaped nose? One that doesn't imply an Anglo-Saxon heritage? I am Jewish. I don't have what people think of as a "Jewish nose", but mine ain't small. Does Harley think I should change it? Nuts, nuts, nuts. That's just insane. And BTW, I hate Barbra Streisand, in case you were wondering. Pompous, pretentious, annoying. And when I was growing up, if anyone said to me, "Oh, you look just like Barbra Streisand", I wanted to punch them. To me, that was code for "Oh, you have such a big Jewish nose!" <P>OK...then he talks about dental correction (OK), orthodontia (also ok), and correction of receding or protruding chin by surgery.<P>Again, WHO DECIDES WHAT'S RECEDING OR PROTRUDING???? Isn't this some artificial standard of beauty being imposed on us, essentially saying we should all have a particularly configuration of facial features? And PS -- it ain't like a man can't see his wife's chin before they get married, folks. <P>Whatever happened to diversity being interesting? Why must we all have the same configuration?<P>To me, the idea that any woman should have to figure that ELECTIVE SURGERY INVOLVING ANESTHESIA is REQUIRED to keep her husband happy is madness. Utter madness.<P>So after all this, then Harley says, "Attractiveness is what you do with what you have." OK, fine. So why can't we work with our extra pounds (and be voluptuous, the way men USED to think women were attractive) and carry them beautifully, with pride and sexuality? Why can't we show off our oversized noses and undersized chins and say, HEY! THIS IS MY FACE! AIN'T IT GORGEOUS?<P>My point with all this is not that you shouldn't try to look nice for your spouse, but that we are all different, and to try to force us all to fit into the same box doesn't make any sense.<P>

My H swears that my weight doesn't bother him, but I think it does. One of my problems is that I tend to handle stress with food. <P>Anyway, I have noticed (with some satisfaction) that remaining thin does not necessarily mean retaining a good figure.<BR>How much more attractive is a size 2 woman than I am when she slumps her shoulders and her gut sticks out?

In Frank Pittman's book "Grow Up - How Taking Responsibility Can Make You A Happy Adult" there is a part that says in order for a man to be happy as he ages he must learn to appreciate celulite and wrinkles. Not an exact quote just going from memory.<P>I whole heartedly agree. I love my W for who she is and not what she looks like. Don't get me wrong I feel that both spouse's should do the best they can with what they are blessed with. But let's face it as we age we all change not neccesarily for the worst just different.<P>I think if my W decided she was going to have elective surgery to alter her apperance I would rush her to the nearest shrink.

Well, this thread has ticked me off. All that Harley bull ... D&C you hit the nail(s) right on the head ... thank you.<P>Bottom line ladies ... we have to be happy about ourselves...PERIOD. Is it gonna make me happy to starve myself, exercise until I drop, lament over wardrobe choices, etc. JUST TO MAKE A MAN HAPPY? If that's the case, why did he marry me in the first place?<P>Bodies come and go .... it's not like we women HAVE a lot of time (and necessary $$) to just dote on ourselves ... ya know? We've got to bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, keep the house, organize the family's calendar, be a shuttle, be a maid ... oh and then be a red hot lover come bedtime.<P>PPPUUUUHHHHLLLLEEEESSSS<P>Women, give yourselves a break on this one. My body will never be a size 7 ... it's physically impossible -- but I know I could stand to lose about 20 lbs. or so. But I want to do it FOR ME ... my H loved me at 222 lbs. (my heaviest) and he loves now (lost many many pounds last year)<P>And by the way, I don't see THAT many men that are GQ material. Why don't THEY seem to care? Why is it us women that are suppose to remain ageless wonders and the men get to let gravity do it's thing on their guts ...<P>It's frustrating ... I am mad that society causes me to have to feel bad about my body.<P>I need to want to make my body everything it can be because it's God's Temple. His Spirit resides here. I need to make it worthy of His presence ... INSIDE and OUT! I need to keep it free of disease, and toxins (as much as possible), which means I need to eat better ... and eat LESS! (lest I be reminded that gluttony is a sin!)<P>Okay, I'm done ranting ... this just ticked me off really early in the morning.<P>Men, please don't let us down on this one!

Ha! <P>Hey did you guys see that commerical were the men are saying 'I have my mothers thighs' and 'do I look fat in these pants' etc?? It was hysterical!<P>...sorry, I don't remember what they were advertising- what a good consumer I am...<P><BR>All things in balance...<BR>More protien and less carbohydrates and sugars helps too.

ok let's see if I can give you my limited point of view....<P>I guess for me outward appearance was important. When I saw my W for the first time she was a fox! That is what initially got me to talk to her. Had she been average or overweight I probably would never have met up with her. I know from the outside this seems shallow but it's true. I told my W for years that if she turned out like her mom ( larger ) that I would leave her, as I got older I knew that was a crock of poo. <P>Yes I was superficial, Yes I cared how other people saw me and her, Yes I wanted other men to see me with her and say " What is she doing with him? " I still don't know why.<P>My W called herself my "Trophy Wife". I showed her off to people. She's right, I don't know why but for some reason that made me feel good. <P>But if it came down to a medical condition or getting disfigured in an accident that would have been different, You can't help that so its not her fault. <P>It took me a long time to realize that it goes both ways. That I needed to be attractive to her, that she wanted to show me off to people. But I fear now that it is too late. Now I see why she tried to dress me and get me to look good, I just didn't get it.<P> I look back on it and we were so young, We thought we knew but we didn't. I think we are both growing so much and I realize know that her looks are secondary to me. Her inner self is what I want now, not like when we first met when I wanted her outer self.<P>I hope that made sense...... Any specific questions...?<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

i think partners expect and accept the fact that each will age and physical attractiveness will fade. we usually haven't a problem accepting the fading beauty. we all know that one or the other may become diseased or disfigured. we take a vow that we will continue to love our spouse inspite of any disease or disfiguement. but, none of us know how we'll react until it happens.<BR>i think most people will try, at least for some time, to be mature and honor our vow and continue to be a good spouse.<BR>when we talk about having an attractive spouse as one of the most important emotional needs, i think we're referring to what we have a right to expect of our spouse.<BR>please understand, i'm not at all referring to the usual standards of beauty. i'm talking about regular people who are normally somewhat overweight. we wouldn't stand out in a crowd. we would all love to fall in love with a miss/mr america and have miss/mr america fall in love with us. but it's not going to happen. we fall in love with regular people. we expect them to pretty much stay ok. a little weight gain, a little drooping of the body parts, is usually ok. the problem arises when a spouse gains way too much weight and even more so when they can't or won't do anything about it. i think smoking, druging, drinking (alcohol), and eating, when done to excess seriously hurts ones' appearance. these are things we needn't have to tolerate.

All right, I'm going to "weigh" in here. JustWondering---you have hit a sensitive nerve, and it's pretty silly. But let me "disrespect" the respondents here (this is teasingly, )---it sounds like I'm lecturing to a bunch of fat, ugly, cellulite-ridden grannies...<P>There is nothing shallow about emotional needs here. Attractiveness is no more "shallow" than conversation, sexual fulfillment, admiration, or anything else.<P>JustWondering---if you get fat because of a metabolic disease, or you get disfigured because of an accident---what happens??? Your husband's need isn't fulfilled---but it's understandable. Perhaps there's nothing you can do. But if there is something you CAN do (that you can agree on, through the POJA), then you should do it, to fulfill your needs.<P>If conversation is my wife's major need, and one of you irate ladies slashes my throat and permanently ruins my voicebox---my wife's need will go unmet. Does that mean she has a free shot at divorce??? No. <P>What is very important, and what I can't believe Maya is saying after all her time here:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bottom line ladies ... we have to be happy about ourselves...PERIOD. Is it gonna make me happy to starve myself, exercise until I drop, lament over wardrobe choices, etc. JUST TO MAKE A MAN HAPPY? If that's the case, why did he marry me in the first place?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Love should be unconditional. Your spouses feelings don't matter. Love me for me---otherwise you're a selfish, ignorant idiot.<P>That's not a realistic view of marriage. People change, needs change. You're in a grown up relationship here---if you're only going to be selfish and worry about yourself, don't get married. If you do want a marriage to work, realize that love is a conditional response, and learn how to encourage that response from your mate.<BR>If I marry a woman partially because she's thin, and then she starts laying on the couch eating 5 boxes of twinkies a day and balloons to 700 lbs---am I going to resent that?? You bet!!<P>If a woman marries me in part because I'm a wonderful, attentive conversationalist---and after we're married I ignore her, working too late, being with kids, and not talking to her---will she resent that??? You bet!!<P>D&C has taken an equally silly view of Harley's basic principles, and distorted it in her fight against what the "popular media" believes is "beauty". NOW---I've got no problem with this fight against popular beauty---I think it's unhealthy as well. Would I be sexually attracted to "Barbie"?? Sure. But I could be equally attracted to a number of women, ranging in weight from 90 lbs to 300 lbs. For me, attitude and facial characteristics are also big "turn ons" (like a willingness to smile a lot).<P>What Harley simply states is that you learn each other's emotional needs, and that you use the policy of joint agreement to arrive at a plan for filling those needs. If your partner has a need for an attractive spouse---then discuss it. Use the POJA to really find out what that "attractiveness" is all about. And work together to achieve a goal that you've agreed on. It might not be what husband (or wife) initially envisioned, but just the fact that you've discussed it rationally and lovingly and have made an effort towards it will build love between the two of you.<P>Please stop this nonsense about blowing everything out of proportion (literally, as well as "figuratively"). Harley is not stating have elective surgery every 5 months to keep your husband happy---unless you BOTH have ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREED to do just that.<P><p>[This message has been edited by K (edited September 10, 1999).]

JustWondering:<P>A shorter answer to your question about "To Men---about beauty" is:<P>It doesn't matter what's important to all men. What is important is how YOUR man feels about beauty---and you both need to be able to discuss it. As well as the other 9 emotional needs.

K, I just HATE it when you make sense ... and catch me in my own mess of words!<P>Touche!<P>What I mean is that we women need to be happy with ourselves in general. I have a friend that hates herself and it's projected in everything she says and does -- including the way she treats her H. She's overweight ... grossly overweight. Her H loves her anyway, stays devoted to her, her kids love her ... but she hates herself and the result is a house in constant turmoil. Nothing makes her happy because SHE doesn't make her happy.<P>When I feel good about MYSELF, that's when I'm the most fun to be with. The bulk of that self-worth has to come from God and knowing that I'm precious in His sight ... even if my stomach is a roadmap of stretch marks.<P>I don't know if I'm conveying what I want to here. I'm not good at putting thoughts into words I guess.<P>

Ahhh, that's great clarification.<P>I hate to tell you this, but for ME, the women who are most attractive are ones who are happy and self-confident. There are physical attibutes that I like, but they're not overwhelmingly important.<P>But again, that's just me. And what I'm trying to illustrate is that the concepts work pretty well regardless of the slant on the needs---it's all about communication, the POJA, and negotiating in a safe and pleasant manner.

Thank you, K. You are a fine man! You have answered correctly, and therefore may proceed to the next level of questions.<P>Stay tuned.

Sorry, K, but I resent your assumption that any woman who's overweight is so because she eats five boxes of twinkies a day.<P>I am under five feet tall and weigh 160. Too fat for most of you guys, I know. I wear size 14 pants, size 10 top. In skirts, if there's room in the thighs, I wear a 12.<P>That hardly makes me "disgustingly obese", but it sure does make me deviate quite a lot from the weight charts, by which I should weigh between 90-110.<P>The only time in my adult life I weighed as little as 105 was when I was anorexic. That was when I met my H. I used to sit in restaurants and cry because I was so hungry and so terrified to eat because I felt that if he ever saw my "normal" weight (125-145), he'd leave me.<P>Finally he stood with me in the middle of a street fair and told me he couldn't deal with my nonsense about food anymore. I feared losing him more than I feared getting fat, and so I ate. I did not pig out, but I ate.<P>I don't eat five boxes of twinkies a day...never did. I eat three meals a day. Yes, I eat cookies. I will have two or three. I do not eat a box of them. My blood pressure is 110/70, my cholesterol is under 200, and I weigh 160 at under five feet tall. Weather permitting, I do a 2.2 walk 3-4 times a week. It takes me 35 minutes, or about a 15 minute mile -- with short legs.<P>I do not look good in a swimsuit.<P>I would be ECSTATIC to weigh 135 again. I am unable to lose more than a pound a month without making myself crazy. I've lost enough weight that even my hairdresser's *****y partner noticed (and he's the first one to notice if you GAIN).<P>All I'm really trying to say is that there are plenty of overweight women who battle the bulge every day with mixed success. Don't assume that everyone with a weight problem is a glutton, or lazy. We're not.

Hey D&C ... you are built very similar to me. I'm a little taller ... a lofty 5'4" .... yeah, I really have to stoop to get thru doorways.<P>I'm glad your H told you what he did. It freed you to be YOU ... and probably saved your life too, huh?<P>

I'm one of those whose H told her she was fat and he no longer felt desire for her. For one thing, I wasn't overweight according to age/height scales, just at the upper range of normal. I had taken to wearing long skirts, long tops, flowing dresses. He hated that look.<P>Okay 1 1/2 years later. I've lost 23 lbs, mostly due to stress, but I also work out. I'm tan, I'm blonde (was a pale, redhead). I wear short skirts & other basically form-fitting stuff. I'm 39 but I've been carded when buying liquor 4 times in the past 6 months, so it's safe to say there are days I appear to be in my 20s, as much as 17 years younger than I am. It's pretty safe to say that the OW isn't going to look as good at my age as I do. I'm comfortable with the changes and hope I won't put the weight back on. I also get a lot of attention from very attractive men.<P>Now my H tells me I'm a beautiful woman, very desirable, irrestibale to him. He's noticed the attention other men give me. Does this beauty make him want to stay in the marriage? Nope. Truly it helps, but he has said to me, "Why didn't you lose weight and do all this before?" I said, "What if I hadn't done it now?" He said, "you must think I'm crazy." I didn't lose weight before because <BR>1) I've given birth to 2 kids and I have baked many cookies . <BR>2) women in my family are voluptuous, and I grew up thinking that was OK. Grandma has always told me I was too thin--even when my H was saying I should lose weight. <BR>3)I have rheumatoid arthritis, & between pain & fatigue I couldn't exercise much for several years. I'm in remission now and can exercise, so I do. Less weight & healthy muscles also help with the RA.<BR>4)I was busy with kids and didn't know how to find time in my day that I wouldn't rather be spending with H or kids. The kids are in middle school now, and I have more time when they are somewhere else.<P>I guess what I'm trying to say is that attractiveness is only one need. It is high on my H's list, but now that I'm meeting it, there is still more. I'm also doing better with recreational companionship, sex, admiration, domestic (this is the worst one for me). He can't tell me any needs of his that I'm not meeting, other than he's not "happy". I think loss of attractiveness is an easy one for men to notice, so they may use it when they feel disatisfied.

My H has never once complained about my weight. Ever. He complained more about my food nuttiness when I was thin. I've met two of his ex-girlfriends and both were kind of "bovine."<P>I was fine with my weight until OW/"friend"/predator came along, and because SHE's thin (lost a lot of weight on speed), it kicked all of my "You're nothing if you're not thin" baggage.<P>I'm trying to lose weight mostly because it's hard to find clothes to fit. The old "waist ten inches smaller than hip" rule applies to me, but when the waist is 32 and the hip is 42, the clothes don't fit.<P>I don't labor under the delusion that I'll ever be thin. I'll never have long legs. I'll never be a "hot babe" because I wasn't one when I was 18, it's kind of hard to expect to be one now. To that extent, I'll never look like OW/"friend"/predator b*tch from h*ll (I'm getting carried away now). But it sure would be nice if my old size 12 Land's End chinos fit again.

My husband has hair. I love it! It is so important to me! Isn't that silly? He's about 1 inch shorter than me - I'm 5'7 and 1/2, and he's about 5'6. It bothered me that he was shorter than me, so I started wearing flats and he started wearing cowboy boots with a heal. <P>My husband has a great body. And beautiful smile. And he knows it. I like that.<P>I'm about 15 lbs. heavier than when we met, but I am still a beautiful woman. I know several of the women he has had affairs with in his first marriage, and know his first wife was hit with an ugly stick. Apparently beauty isn't really important to him.<P>One of the things he told me that made me love him even more - was one evening when he was putting his fingers in my stretch marks (they are very deep) and told me how he loves those stretch marks because it makes him be reminded of me as a good mother. And that to him, my stretch marks are absolutely beautiful, and that he knows probably no one could ever love them the way he does.<P>Now, that is a man with a gentle and tender heart. I can love this man forever.

TNT, that's just beautiful. So are you.

D&C:<P>Again, you missed my point. Let me state it once more.<P>If you gain weight for "metabolic" reasons, and you and your spouse have POJA'ed the issue and either come to a decision, that's OK. Even if the "resolution" is that you do nothing. It's a medical condition. What you do need to do is acknowledge your partner's "need" as legitimate. You are required to go through the process of POJAing to come to a resolution. You do this, you're in good shape. If you were my wife and I needed "thin" as a requirement, I'd be fine with you.<P>If, on the other hand, you DID gain all your weight through gluttony (an "extreme" example) and thin was important to me---what you would be doing is "actively disrespecting" my need. And I would build resentment.<P>The issue with needs is ACKNOWLEDGING that they're legitimate. And what you've implied is that attractiveness isn't a legitimate need. And that's disrespectful and wrong, to many people. And if you're married to one, you're in for trouble.<P>If you ACKNOWLEDGE each other's needs, then you can discuss them. You can use the POJA to come up with a plan to meet those needs. If you can't agree, then you owe it to your marriage to try again. And again. Be creative. If in the end you still can't agree, than NOTHING get's done (no self-sacrifice to build up more resentment).<P>My wife hasn't met my need for sex in a long time (years). But we've made progress in that she's acknowledged it, and that we're discussing things using the Policy of Joint Agreement to get my need met. And guess what---even though I haven't gotten sex, I love her more---just for that effort.<P>That's what these tools are all about. I'm sorry---I didn't mean to imply that overweight people are simply a product of their own gluttony. It's not true.