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Thinker, I am so sorry for your pain. I will be praying for your dad. Try not to take this out too much on SnL. He really is trying, I think he is just afraid that no matter what he does it will be the wrong thing, so he chooses to do nothing. My H does that as well. Think about it, and I mean really think about it. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, so why do anything at all??? Only you can change the way you perceive things so that this stops happening. Only you...<P>SnL is not capable of meeting your needs the way you want them to be met right now. What you need is for someone to take all the pain away, make your life seem whole again. Nobody can do that but yourself, over TIME!!<P>I am sure SnL is doing everything he THINKS he can for you right now. The problem, is that it is NOT everything you THINK you need. My suggestion to you is that you sit down, calmly apologize to SnL for taking your emotions out on him, make a list of what he seriously can do for you, and then compliment him and say thank you when he does ANYTHING on the list. If there is an opportunity for him to do something, and he doesn't, just simply say, it would have been nice if you had done X, perhaps next time?? Do not say this sarcastically or rude or it will lose all meaning.<P>SnL, you know Thinker is having a tough time. Just take it all and get over it, there are other things happening in her life that is causing her pain, it is not all about your affair or your marriage. Just realize that, and take what she says/does that is negative with a grain of salt. I am not saying forever, I am just saying for now since she is in pain. You need to apologize to Thinker as well for being scared to meet her needs. Look at the list, and make an honest effort to do the things that will mean most to her. You will not be able to get rid of her pain, and because of that, it will seem like the little things you do won't mean that much. But they do, trust me. If you miss an opportunity, and Thinker picks up on it, just say, sorry, I didn't think of that, I will try to remember next time. As simple as that.<P>Let me start on a list that I got out of reading Thinker's posts:<BR>-At least two times a day she would like a hug<BR>-At least three times a day, a quick email/note/call to see how she is doing and if there is anything she needs from SnL<BR>-Listen to her talk (endlessly if need be) about her feelings and how sad she is about her dad and her life. No matter when/where/how. Just hold her and listen.<BR>-Bring home a small gift every day just to show her you care. From a single flower to a pizza. Just something.<P>Thinker. Please post here and tell us the good things SnL is doing. Not just the bad, it was not right for you to come here to try and force SnL to do what you want (deep down, you know that was what it was about). Your tone said it all. It's okay to be wrong, just make it right by posting again and letting us know some good stuff too, k?<P><BR>Can you guys give that a try, please? I am in pain just listen to you two fight over such little things. You need to be there for each other, and the answer is as simple as an apology and a plan of action. You two can apologize, right??<P>Thinker, I am praying so hard for your dad. I can't imagine the pain you are going through. I am so sorry. I hope that God eases the pain and suffering of your entire family very soon.<P><<<<<<hugs to you both>>>>>>>>><BR>HbH

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I will have to post later. Been busy this morning, have to take son to orthodontist for measurements of retainers. Will post nice things about SNL.

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Nina too:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Was posted by WAT. But the sentiment is a universal MB tenet.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

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I do not want to be right, I want to be married to the right man. Right now I feel my H is not the right man. H sits on the computer too much, phylosophising with everyone instead of spending time with me. I feel time on computer is unthoughtfulness to me, he doesn't feel that way. So here it goes.<P>Good things:<BR>1. He was a good father. Still has a semi-interest in the kids activities, but the affair destroyed a lot of it. Kids saw the interaction he always had on the phone with the other woman.<BR>2. He is a smart man, common sense a little low, but does use his brain.<BR>3. He is a handsome man. Is overweight quite a bit, wish he would lose weight for his health, when you get over 50 the belly has to go. Commonsense!<BR>4. He seemed to like animals, that was a big thing with me. I love animals and would always be an important part of my life.<BR>5. He used to keep clean and smell nice. Groom his hair and teeth. That has fallen down some, and wish it were back.<BR>6. He loves to read, I love to read, and explore.\<BR>7. He loves adventure. I really enjoyed that with him, to explore places and sightsee and read about the places we visited.<BR>8. I like astronomy and would of liked to explored more of that. Took it in high school, and 1 semester in college. <BR>9. I like that he likes biology, was my most interesting course in high school and college. I am only semi-versed in math. <BR>10. H is great in math, math not my strong point, so I looked to have him figure the details and calculations.<BR>11. H is good at finances to an extent. He tends to be a spender under stress. I am the frugal one, and I feel we blend well with that order. <BR>12. H is not the worrywart. I fill that bowl many times till overflowing. <BR>13. H used to think family was one of the most important things in life. Now, I am not sure with what he says. <BR>14. When I married, I thought H would never stray, have an affair, as well as a physical affair. False readings. I felt commitment was an important part of his life.<BR>15. Religion is important to me. When he met me I was in a christian group. He liked hearing about the classes I took, and this was a great lovebank deposit. He said religion was important to him too. I feel that has gone down too now.<BR>16. H is a hard worker. We discuss how we both had jobs in high school. How money never came easy to us. He works hard and has provided comfort for our family.<BR>17. He wanted to start his own business, that was a good thing. I really like having our own business.<BR>18. We used to converse when dating all the time on the phone. We conversed in the beginning of our marriage. But now that natural conversation is not there. It is stranged and there is not the flow. Too much tension here.<BR>19. I loved that he was a paramedic at one time. I am a non practicing LPN.<BR>20. He used to take care of things around the house, was nice to say, the xxx needs fixing and I knew it would get done. <BR>21. He loved to go shopping with me, we would x-mas shop together, grocery shop, and etc. That was a nice time together.<BR>22. He loves entertainment. Movies, games, being with friends and family. Vacationing and enjoying the land God gave to us. This has fallen too.<BR>23. He loved to teach Sunday school at church. That I really loved. During the affair, church was not attended and he still does not feel right about going. To go to church togeether was important. As a child my mother would take my brother and I to church without my dad. Dad quit going after they wanted a percentage of your income.<BR>24. Siblings was important to H.<BR>25. Admiration seems to be important to H. <BR>26. Sexually he was a good partner.<BR>27. H is great at rearranging the furniture in the house. I would kind of go, oh no. But you know most of the time it turned out pretty good. <BR>28. He loves to eat, and when a meal he enjoys tremendously is eaten, you can tell he really liked it. <BR>29. H helped get kids from activites to activities. <BR>30. H went to school while I was working full time in the beginning of our marriage.<BR>31. H used to be athletic, I am a great walker and walk quite a bit each day.<BR>32. H and I met at a 'Run for your Life class'. We ran miles and then exercises and played volleyball after the hard work. I would run with the guys, cause the girls were too slow. This is an adult class, that provided babysitting for the little ones. H said he would run behind me, to watch my ponytail fly, and my butt.<BR>33. H has long fingers, and I have long fingers. Therefore the kids have long fingers. 3 of the kids played the piano and the oldest one can reach 1 1/2 octaves.<BR>34. H and I used to while dating listen to music. That was important to me. We would go to some concerts. I like music and this was nice to share. Now I hardly ever listen to music, no desire, too depressed.<BR>35. H used to like my art ability. H would help me set up at art shows. I used to enjoy the art, painted pictures for gifts. We gave a beautiful painting as gifts to 2 weddings. Once again no desire, lost interest in art, depression.<BR>36. H encouraged me to go to nursing school and finish.<BR>37. H encouraged me during our first pregnancy. That was a scary thing, first time pregnancy. <BR>38. H used to buy me flowers for my birthday, or on a special occasion.<BR>39. H used to let me go shopping once in a great while to shop for something for me. We didn't have a lot of money.<BR>40. H would babysit on the weekends to let me garage sale. Would outfit the family and buy furniture and toys, and gifts at a fraction of the cost of regular price.<P>There are more, running out of time right now. Want to take the 4 dogs out in the fields to run and especially to let the puppy (7 months) old get rid of some of her energy. The 2 big boys, are mixed breed, going on 10 years old. Big dogs, 120# 110#. Next dog is a border collie mix, 55# and really has gotten quite in shape with the puppy. The puppy is a golden retriever. Really beautiful, the old dark retriever color. Bright dog, just a handful of energy. Want to go before it gets too dark.<P>How is this for a start on the things I admire in my H?<P>We have counseling with the Harleys tonight!<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by thinker (edited September 24, 2001).]

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Thinker, that was awesome. I know it must have been tough, but it's always nice to hear the good things as well as the bad ones, y'no? Would have been nice if there were more CURRENT good stuff, but it is a start. LOL<P>Let SnL know you DO appreciate the good stuff he is doing. I know SnL has alot of stuff to work out, and I hope you to got to give your apologies the other night and the counseling with the Harley's went well...<P>I have not read any other posts yet but will be doing so soon, perhaps there is an update in one of those.<P>One thing I noticed is that SnL seems to get comfort out of posting here and learning things. I know his PA came from an online romance, so I can kind of see how deep down, him being on the computer at all probably has a negative impact on you. I think that is something you will need to let go of in time. Do you think it's a trigger of some sort?<P>Good luck guys. Godspeed.<BR>HbH

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Yes, I know deep down inside the computer is a good thing, but I could throw his right in the pond. The same with his cell phone and a few other things. And I don't like him talking to all these woman, saying things like you are so sensitive, caring, etc. These are big triggers. I talked to Jennifer about this last night, and she has concern. After all this is how his other affair started and went to be a physical affair. There is no trust in my H and he doesn't understand this.

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I know. I sensed it. <P>I don't think you have anything to worry about here at MB. Just realize that SnL is trying to help others, and I can tell you, that hearing him say such kind things about me sometimes REALLY helped me. And I did NOT think it was a come-on or anything. I don't think anyone here on this site will.<P>From what I understand he posts alot in front of you so you will know what he is doing. That is awesome, Thinker!! Think about it, if he was really DOING something, why would he do it someplace that you have access to??<P>This is just something you will need to work on. It will be hard, I know, but you can do it!! SnL doesn't stay on the computer on purpose just to make you made, or to purposefully not meet your needs. He is getting help for himself, he is learning and helping others here. YOU SHOULD BE PROUD OF HIM!<P>I realize alot of the stuff he posts hurts to read, BUT, I also know it should give you some comfort to read the replies he is getting. Think about it, even if he feels this stuff inside (even if it is exaggerated), isn't it awesome to know he comes here to vent and is GETTING THAT TYPE OF ADVICE!!!! Isn't that exactly what you would want to happen?? I know I would want my WS to come here and get such good advice.<P>Think of the positive. If he wasn't on the computer, he wouldn't be getting help and think about how much worse your marriage would be then. <P>Perhaps it would help if you and SnL POJA'd and came up with a certain amount of time that he feels comfortable spending on the computer each day. That way, you won't have to nag him to get off and do something with you, and SnL won't feel like you are bullying him around. Just an idea. You will need to learn to deal with him on the computer and how it triggers you and SnL will need to learn to manage his time more effectively so he is not on for hours on end...<P>Also, in regards to another post I saw, perhaps it would be a good idea for SnL to label his posts as "VENT" so you will know not to go on and read those specific posts. That way he has a place to go and vent (and you too for that matter), you both get the support you need individually, and you don't have to worry about the other person getting hurt by your words. We all need to vent sometimes...<P>Just a thought. How is your dad doing BTW?<BR>HbH

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SNL and I were suppose to POJA on the amount of time he spends on the computer according to Marriage Builders counseling. But H told me he will spend as much time on the computer as he wants. He does not feel it is being unthoughtful towards me, so I just turn my back. I cannot see everything that he is posting, nothing would get done here. There are times when I started reading something he posted, and he said don't read it. This is a sore subject between H and I. Would love to POJA on amount of time, but H is unwilling to POJA.<P>Yes, he does get some good, but there are many things around here not getting done. I am only one person with difficulties outside of this marriage, and I feel like I am falling further behind on everything. <P>My mother and I went to the University of Michigan hospital to get the results of my dads biopsy today. He has cancer, Lymphoma tumor between the eyes. He goes on Oct. 16 to the oncology department of the hospital for consultation on radiation therapy. Doctor was really nice in explaining to my dad that it is cancer, and the treatment that is recommended. He took it quite well, I took it quite well, I took 3 nerve pills before I left. I think now it is finally hitting me that it is the big CA. Thoughts are getting down, and I feel weepy. My mother is doing pretty good, am going to talk to her tomorrow, to see how things are. She is a strong woman, but has had one sign of a panic or nervous attack. She is holding so much in, that I think her body has finally stressed out. <P>God is beside me, and I thank him for that. We worked on a church today, and I privately went upstairs to the alter and prayed for a few minutes. This felt soooo gooood. I know God was listening to me, and it felt good to have someone to listen to me and for me to talk to. <P>Life goes on and that is exactly what is going to happen. Thanks for listening.

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Dear Thinker,<P>I just read your post. Sending {{{hugs to you and your family}}}. <P>You and your mom are carrying so much. Go and spend what time you need with your dad and mom. Don't worry about everything being perfect. Your family can function without your full attention for a while. Let them support you in that manner. <P>SNL, your marching orders are to take care of your family...... with love of course. I don't think you are heartless so I know you will be there to support your wife in her time of need. Putting all aside this is what life is about. These are times when our love is really put to the test. Dealing with the irreversable fact that life is too short is hard. No need to add more problems. <P>Take care and hugs to you both. <P>L. <BR>

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Ditto what Orchid said. Thinker, keep us posted and let us know how things are going with you, k?<P>Go spend some time with your parents. Your mom is going through lots of the same stuff our BS's go through, the anxiety attacks, bodies breaking down, etc. Just for different reasons. I'm sure you are the best one to comfort her and your dad during this time.<P>For now, you just have to forget about the computer stuff, it's nothing compared to the big picture. You and SnL can work on that AFTER your outside problems get easier to deal with... but, it sounds like you are already doing that.<P>BTW, I would recommend not reading the stuff that SnL says not too. He doesn't really bash you, he just needs a place to vent alot of times and I know if it were me, it would hurt to hear his words. Even if, months later, he realizes he didn't mean it or he was just hypothesizing... When he says that, just say, I understand, you are venting again, and leave it at that. <P><<<<<<<<Thinker & SnL>>>>>>>>>>><BR>HbH

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Update on my dad. My mother and I went to the UofM Hospital with my dad Thursday. My dad does have lymphoma cancer. The turmor is 5x4". They figure it has been there for awhile. He is blind and lid closed in R eye, and the left eye is losing its sight. He can't breathe through his nose cause the tumor is blocking his breathing. The doctor was very nice to my dad, he wrote everything in big letters on several pieces of paper. Told him he has cancer, that it is a big tumor. That is causing all his problems. Told him that he will have to be on radiation, which he now has an appt. on Oct. 16. The doctor is concerned because the tumor is right between the eyes and goes down and is next to the brain. So the frontal lobe is there and the affects the memory and personality. There might be some damage there after radiation. He said the oncology department will be able to explain more to us. I took 3 nerve pills before going to the hospital. It seemed to work, I didn't want to break down with my parents there, they needed support. <P>Found the next day is my up and down day. Got really low, various times. Called my mom that evening and the same with her. I guess it is the aftermath of hearing bad news. <P>I wish to explain to all of you, that I am not a bad person. H states things that are not quite right. I am a good mother, was a good wife, and am a caring wife. H did not meet my emotional needs, hardly ever took me out to dinner or just out for a date. I was left home with all the 4 kids all day, felt lonely, and wished for a outlet. Maybe I should of had an affair to get my emotional needs met at that time. (But my christian values would not let me, I had an opportunity once, and told the guy that I am committed to my husband). He was naked in our house and invited me to my H and my bed. I am still lonely and still feel unloved. <P>I am trying to get the house cleaned up today, have been going on service calls with H the last 4 or 5 days. Of course the house has not been touched while I was gone with H. Would really appreciate H getting off the computer and getting things done here. But I just continue working, and then around 3 I will go to my parents house to help them out. We do separate things, cause he sits on the computer, and I can't stand the house such a mess. Nobody wants to clean up around here, until I start yelling or saying lets get <BR>things done. We have 4 dogs, 2 cats, 1 messy bird, and 2 guinea pigs in the house. We have a lot of fur flying around the house, and there are balls of fur on the floor. I am doing laundry, my son and I are cleaning up the living room really good, and then I will tackle the kitchen, and probably after that take my walk to my moms which is about 3 miles away. Help there where I can. <P>I am a doer, and this is where H and I differ. Stress also causes me to work harder and try to do things to keep busy. H would rather sit at the computer. He was on the computer till 3am this morning, since he has been up he is on the computer now 1pm. He helped with a plant of mine and sell one part. But if he had his choice he would be there all day. This is where we differ, and I can't stand to live in a house with dirt all over the floor, fur all over, and the kitchen table still messed up with parts of business all over for 3 weeks now. I guess I am venting. Well took a few minutes got to go back to work and go to my parents.

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SNL...can I make a suggestion?? I just read thinkers post about her dad..and I say...Go take her in your arms and just hold her..let her cry, let her be angry that this is happening to her father, and let her cry some more..but most importantly..just wrap her up and hold her in your arms till she feels safe..<P>Think about your parents..if your mom or dad were ill right now what would you want her to do for you? It maybe not be exactly what she needs right now..but wouldn't you like her to be able to do whatever it was so that you would feel better?? <P>I know that there have been many times in the ten years I've been married that I have struggled w/ a family members accidents, illnesses, and even deaths..that all I wanted was to be held -- and to be told it would be okay..no matter what happened..things would be okay..my stbxh has never given me that..not even when my mom died..he was distant and stayed away from home..this year when our daughter had an accident and was life flighted to the hospital..I just wanted to be held..and told things would be okay..I even went to him at the hospital and gave him a hug..he just pulled away..God could have used that incident right there to help heal a broken marriage..to help us learn to comfort and be there for each other..and he threw it away..was he worried about our daughter, yes he was..did he feel guilty for her getting hurt..yes he did..did I blame him? No, I didn't..I just wanted to comfort him and allow him to comfort me..and he rejected that..and I had to lean on God to get that comfort..the comfort that he'd given me a spouse for..<P>So please..don't throw away this chance to maybe take a step in the direction of healing your marriage..reach out to her and try to offer her comfort..you may not be able to do exactly as she needs but you can start by at least trying..

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I know it doesn't sound like it, cause I choose not to rebut my w posts (mostly), but I am not the insensitive lout it sometimes may seem. I have indeed held her, and talked to her, and such.....but inevitably the overall conflicts of our life do permeate everything in it, and our perceptions as well. I am trying to be there for her, but it just does not quite always work out the way we would all like it too.

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<<<<SnL>>>>>. Keep trying. It matters, really.<P>Thinker, thanks for the update. Wish I could do more to help you. Glad you could come here and vent.<P>HbH

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Yes, it is a place to vent. H gets upset when I say things about him, but I need to say what I see. Went on a really nice walk yesterday, 6 miles in all. Enjoyed talking to God, talking to my dog, and hearing the birds and all. Out in the country. <P>Need to get this place cleaned up. Well see what happens with H, can't seem to do things on his own. I have to be there to help. I feel like everyone is using me, and where does one get self satisfaction with all these demands. Where is there time for me, where is the want in H to get his mess cleaned up for the comfort of the house looking neat and organized. I don't know, maybe will never know.<P>Hope you all have a good day.

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Thinker...<BR>I'm reading "Co-dependent No More" by Melodie Beattie. If you get this book, I'm sure you'll be peering around suspiciously wondering when the author was spying on your life. IMHO you are the classic victim. You've most likely have heard this 100 times before but the only person that can make you happy is you.<P>------------------<BR>It's not how bad it is. It's how good it's not.

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Will get book and read it, thanks.

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