I recently learned that my H and OC's grandmother (Helga) have had several conversations about me. Helga has shared some of the dicsussions and I am struggling with things my H has said.<P>In a discussion about Ry and I, my H said this:<P>"It's really sad, Joanne is so good with kids and has such an affinity for Ryan and he, her. Joanne really should have had children. It's really too bad."<P>So, okay. To me, his comments are saying he was never a part of OUR marriage, that HE had nothing to do with the fact WE never had children. That he has "so" moved on that he looks at me like I am just some stranger, someone out there he feels pity for and he never was married to me and his actions (fathering children outside of our marriage) had NOTHING to do with me being baren of children. That he is not responsible for anything. <P>Am I being to sensitive? Am I reading things that aren't there? I just feel as tho he thinks because he has this new family, he looks at me as tho we were never married. And he has nothing to do with the circumstances in which he left me. After 20 friggin years, how can he feel that? How can he compartmentalize my situation regarding "no children" as nothing to do with HIM???<P>This hurts me so much. He is the ONLY reason I have no children. He made those babies with OWs and we both felt too gulity to have ones of our own, because HE did not want to participate in their lives, and I willingly agreed. I will accept a degree of the responsibility, but I DID NOT MAKE THOSE TWO BOYS, HE DID. He wrecked our LIVES, DAMMIT!<P>Sorry ... just hurting.<BR>Jo<P>------------------<BR>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"

Hi Jo. I am so sorry for your pain, hun. You know my answer, you need to try and let go - forget about what OC's grandmother says. It's not worth it.<P>If it's worth anything, when I read what you wrote, it sounded like your H was missing the way you bonded with his child. That he wished it was YOUR child, not just his and that you could still be a big part of OC's life because you were such a wonderful mother to him.<P>Just my thoughts. Don't read into it. It wasn't that bad.<P>HbH

Hi Jo, can I answer?<P>Stepping back from your specific case, I see many other WSs in your H. His overall logic process, I think, is right from the script. My wife knows it very well, BTW.<P>It goes like this: The end of the marriage (family) is a given. It's out of their hands, so there's no going back, no need to even try to see if it will work. It has been defined as "over," and the definition is cast in stone.<P>His logic for your childlessness is just an extension of his artificially imposed constraint. He does not see that his actions and narrow views were the chisel and hammer.<P>WAT

Dear Jo,<P><<<hugs for you>>>. Your H is right, you are a wonderful person. Are you sensative to his statement? A bit. Reading into to more than you should? Probably. <P>Remember you said they were discussing you and R. His statement appears to be about you and R. <P>Jo, this sounds more like a compliment from your H. Remember you have cut off most of the contact with him and maybe he is using this vehicle to let you know he thinks highly of you. Is he right? Yes, in my books and he knows you better than I do. <P>Does a compliment from him hurt? Probably. You need to reconcile with that piece. You can find happiness in being thought of with such high regard. Too bad it has taken him this long to find out. <P>Jo, you have so much to offer. Save it for the right one. Let them treat you preciously as you deserve. <P>{{{more hugs}}}}. Hope we can talk soon!!!<P>Aloha,<BR>L. <P>

Nudged to the TOP for Faye and K.<P>Jo

My take is that he feels guilty for 'wasting' your life...it is similar to statements my H has made to me...that it is too bad he ruined my life and 'held' me back.<P>He thinks that if he hadn't married you, your life would have been better. Again, a statement my WH has made to me.<P>Further, that once he is out of my life, or only in the sidelines it will be 'better' for me and everyone else concerned.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Hi Jo:<P>I wrote you a scathing reply this morning at work...then left it on the computer during lunch and never got back to it...it's still sitting there ready to be sent.<P>That's probably a lucky thing...since it ended with a reference to parts of your XWH's anatomy being handled a la "Bobbit"....or at the very least a kick in the b***.<P>Sanctimonious b***s***...that's all this is. I've heard it too..."she is such a wonderful person....wonderful mother" "I just wish she could find someone to love her like she needs to be loved" "She doesn't deserved what I've done to her"....it's all rhetoric...meant to sound like they really are sorry this unfortunate thing has happened to you (What? Me...at fault...NO Way!!!!)<P>It's all still fogese...and from his perfect place he can look down on a poor mortal such as you and have pity...but just wait until ugly reality rears its head and this perfect place begins to crumble because its foundations are built on lies, deceit and betrayal (not to mention that bedrock of stability illicit sex). <BR> <BR>Yes, children in their infinite wisdom see clearly the good in people...they are not fooled by our facades...only wish the same could be said for adults. Remember to this day my WH is still trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (OW). LOL. Your's too. Sad thing is he already had a silk purse in you.<P>Forget about his foggy rhetoric...it doesn't/couldn't change who you are....just points out his continuing stupidity.<P>Love, Faye<P>

jeez jo, that really sucks. I am a little confused you can't have children, or chose not to have children......and how old are you now? (if that is impertinent just cuss me out a little, is ok). As for whatever reason you and he have no kids, I can't but help if that is a blessing, considering who the father would be...ya know?<P>I know it is old stale advice, but time heals, try to let go of the anger, and the focus on things hurtful, you have a lot of life left, and a clean slate to write on, a lot of folks would like that opportunity [although probably not at this price ]

Wow, buffy - Jo, she said it more bluntly than I did, but I think we had the same thoughts. Hang tough - remember, you're Resilient.<P>Dave

Jo, yes, the depersonalization or the devaluing of you (and me in my case...and other bs's) is incredibly demoralizing. I think in some ways it is why at this point you have to do it too. Kind of like exorcising him out of your life. <P>Some of the behavior really invokes ANGER!!!!! Believe me, I know... But when you step back...it is truly pathetic.<P>I think of my H, who has disowned all of his possessions like they have cooties... in his attempt to "change everything in his life because he is unhappy"... Gee, do you think he'll ever realize that you can change your shirts, your sofa, your memories (because he refuses to have them) but you are still really you inside. I told him a long time ago that he still has the same soul.<P>I still can't even imagine what my kids think to watch their dad. My son started writing so small you can't read it. (he's 10). Can you see how diminished he feels. I wouldn't even bother telling my H. He is so focused on the terror attacks but doesn't get it that the kids and I are taking what we can from this house of ghosts and moving on. Doesn't faze him.<P>My point, is that for some people, it is the diminishing of others that raises their self esteem. I guess we all have our way of coping when in pain. I'm sorry that you (and I) seem to be the scapegoat. <P>However, hard as it is, we have to define ourselves. We cannot let another person or situation define us.<P>

Jo:<P>I think this compartmentalization is pretty typcial of someone who has done the things your husband has done. I don't know if you're being "too sensitive"---but I wouldn't bother yourself about this. It's not about you---it's about him. He's not able to process his behaviors with his view of himself (as a "good, ethical, moral man")---so he throws these feelings in a corner of his brain, out of the way. Maybe they'll stay there and he'll live a happy life of cluelessness. Maybe they'll come back in five years and he'll show incredible remorsefullness. Maybe they'll come back in 20 years and he'll get suicidally depressed and swallow a gun. You don't know, and there's anything you can do about it. But it's not about you.<P>It's going to take you time to heal. You know that. So I would try to avoid conversations like this (with anyone), where you try to analzye what went wrong with the marriage. It's just going to drag you down...<P> <P>(Not very helpful, I know).