HH,<P>I hope you understood what I meant by that statement. You would be willing to tolerate many things if you were certain that your W loved you and wanted to be married to you.<P>I personally think that you may have to face something and face it soon. <B>You are changing </B> as well all do. Men apparently change from being so outwardly oriented to being more oriented toward family, home, issues that are often associated with women as they age.<P>It would seem to me, that the things that were important to you are changing, that you do need shows of affection and love. You may need a woman that can tell you she loves you and thinks of you. In your younger years, if the sex was good and she wasn't too unhappy, then you could focus on your work, financially supporting the family and be reasonably happy. <P>You may have guessed that your post touched a few things in me. I am a bit older and I see my perspectives and focus changing. It is a bit disconcerting to see and feel and I know my W hasn't figured out that I have changed and have different priorities in my needs. <P>It seems to me that your W wants to recapture her youth and a life she never had and you want to enjoy the fruits of your labors so to speak. To spend time with a W that can look back on 31 years and feel that life was worth it. That loves you and wants to spend time with you. A woman you can depend on if you ever need it, and at our ages the interdependency can come sooner than we think.<P>HH, it may be time to reevaluate what YOU want out of this marriage and decide if it is reasonable to expect her to be a part of it. She is being nicer, and apparently the sex is good, but you are (I suspect) coming to the realization that there may be other things more important.<P>Good luck with your search and good luck with the councelor. I think you are wise to move away from the clothes and the flirting and focus on the issues that this behavior threatens, her commitment to you and the marriage. That is the real source of insecurity isn't it??<P>God Bless,<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited October 01, 2001).]

Hey, HH,<BR>Thought I'd pop over here - rarely post here, but saw your post, and saw that JL is posting to you which is a good thing - JL has always offered very wise, sagely advice, and I respect his opinion.<BR>Unfortunately, I am accepting basically what JL has said - I can't make H do things for me, or love me, so I am facing the real probability that this m may not be what I want or need. I posted on Recovery about my session with Steve this a.m. He told me to stay focused - be nice, not accusing, try to successfully meet H's needs whether or not he meets mine, then, as he takes us through his program, we will either fall in love again, or we will find out there are major issues to address. H may not buy in, and Steve will be able to see it - we will eventually know rather H wants this or still in contact...<BR>So, back to issue of time - will give it a go and see what happens; don't have much else to lose. So, think it is good for you to stop focusing on your W's dress and behavior; focus on being the best H you can be, take care of yourself, and like my H, your W will either buy in or not, and then you and I will probably definitely be ready to accept what we need to do at that point - either our m will be better or we will know it is time to move on. <BR>Did you ever talk to your friend?<BR>Keep in touch,<BR>Hugs,<BR>S

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sobelle:<BR><B>Hey, HH,<BR>Thought I'd pop over here - rarely post here, but saw your post, and saw that JL is posting to you which is a good thing - JL has always offered very wise, sagely advice, and I respect his opinion.<P>Did you ever talk to your friend?<BR>Keep in touch,<BR>Hugs,<BR>S</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sobelle,<BR>Thanks for checking in -- I concur whole heartedly with what you say about JL -- He is very good -- I have to remind myslf that JL is a guy -- he seems more intuative than what the sterotypical male -- this is good!<BR>JL - Thanks!!<P>Sobelle,<BR>I concur with what you said, it is very insightful & I appreciate your input & support!<BR>Love & prayers to you.<BR>Peace to all!<BR>HH

Hi Hurrian!<BR>Glad things are going along all right for now. Hang in there, kiddo! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B>it is my problem & not hers. Here again it is noon & no call from her -- I have not asked her about this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>It's all in how you have "trained" yourself to respond. Seems like you have to retrain yourself NOT to expect these daytime phone calls and there's nothing wrong with that. I LOVE my H and he loves me but he does NOT call me from work during the day... Can you get used to the idea of not hearing from her? It seems to me like it would free your mind of worrying about the phone call in itself?? Are you open to this new way of life?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B>I honestly feel that given the right opportunity she would be in the A's game again. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can you live with knowing this? Is this acceptable to you? Something you need to decide.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B>there seems to be a lot of eveidence that she really does not love me</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B>Congecture on part...We have a C session tomorrow morning & I get so wrapped up in different aspects I would entertain ideas anyone thinks should be my primary issues to bring up?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, my advice to you is not to get your brain all tied in knots with too much conjecturing! Worrying has never solved any of our problems! Worry only takes away from your life, never adding anything useful.<P>What if you just don't bring up anything at the counseling session. Why not just be a listener at this next session and absorb all you can regarding her idea of what her love and commitment means to you, then decide?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:<BR><B>Hi Hurrian!<BR>Glad things are going along all right for now. Hang in there, kiddo! <BR>What if you just don't bring up anything at the counseling session. Why not just be a listener at this next session and absorb all you can regarding her idea of what her love and commitment means to you, then decide?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BinthereDunthat<BR>As I have learned to expect, good points! <BR>I'm trying to bring more focus back to me & you are helping me to better understand that concept.<BR>I think I'm going to follow your advice today -- perhaps if I don't seem to have such an "Agenda" my W may be more open as well!<BR>Love & prayers,<BR>HH<BR>

Update,<BR>She says she wants to be married to me & she has done things to show she is trying -- I'm not convinced her intention are not for the instiution more than her desire to be committed to me. In Counseling session yesterday, I expressed the fact that I wonder if she is really comitted to me and as an example she tells me she is not an affectionate person, yet I see her taking the initiative to be affectionate to others. Counselor stated that it would help a lot if I got more affirmation from my W. Counselor suggeted she tell me she loved me, she had me ask my W & her response came across as insincere & forced & counselor quickly changed directions.<BR>My W got very emotional & I'm not sure why, but I think it might have to do with something I said. I expressed the thought that I'm coming to realize that I cannot change my W, she's going to do what she wants & I cannot control her, I am trying to focus on myself & try to determine reality here. <P>Boundaries:<P>Our couples Counselor started out as my C & she & I met I believe, met 4 times before my W & I have gone as couple -- I believe 4 times now. Carol stated she has no experience with SA issues, but has worked a lot with drug & alcohol addiction. Something she was starting to work with me on was a focus on me & I remember her telling me that I cannot take responsibility for my partner's actions. <BR>I guess for obvious reasons, I would prefer my W see a female counselor, but she does have confidence in R & it seems professional, but for me to suggest she see a different Counselor, I'm thinking would be counter productive ?? You know that her sessions are confidential to me & she has not seen him for a while now. I do know that her C was working with my W on her big focus on having a youthful look & attention to dress and attention from others to gain or maintain a sense of well being. She freely admits to Mid Life Crises thing -- she is 48 & her two boy friends were 32 & 36. Sorry, I am drifting to her again!<BR>Would you recommend a particular article or series regarding SA that I could send to our counselor. Would this be deemed too controlling? This is a favorite label my W puts on me whenever I suggest anything for her to do to help me feel more comfortable -- like how she dresses for example.<BR>My & now, our counselor) also was asking me to think of "boundaries" -- I have not done well with establishing any -- my W states her tight & short skirts and shorts with tight tank tops with string straps & Victory Secret breast enhancing bras (34D)& thong underwear are for her to feel good about herself & are in fashion & not in the least way intended to be provocative -- denial ?? She does look absolutely hot!! You know I have given up on that.<BR>I am venting & don't intend to make you all my counselor here -- C has stated we will get to my concerns about her dress -- I assume some boundary issues here -- I'm not sure how big of a deal I want to make this -- it makes me feel that she is to some degree at least, is still being open to the boy meets girl game and the special charge we know that comes from that! <BR>I welcome any feedback you feel like giving.<BR>Thanks for listening!<BR>Peace,<BR>HH<BR>PS - potential boundary issue coming up -- My W has<BR>two sisters & two female cousins her parents raised<BR>from age 13 & 14 now aged 38 & 39 -- her dad's<BR>brother's daughters -- MY W's uncle & aunt both died<BR>of alcoholism. Her two cousins are both divorced. one<BR>suffers from anorexia & the other bulimia (my W has<BR>some mild bulimia issues I believe as well). My W<BR>youngest sister had an affair with her older cousins<BR>Husband several years back. After this the cousin<BR>divorced, she has had several relationships & had a<BR>one week affair with an Indy car race driver while at<BR>the Indy 500. She has that Hot Look! My W's other sister has been<BR>very overweight, but I remember a story from her high<BR>school days that she had sex with several guys in<BR>succession at a party. Yes, my W was promiscuous in<BR>that we were naked on our first date -- she was a<BR>senior in HS, me a Sophomore in college.<P>So yes, there is some family history -- her dad<BR>verbally abusive, I don't believe physical or sexual -- her mom<BR>was sexually abused by her (mom's) brother when she<BR>was young.<BR>Last summer My W told her divorced cousins about her<BR>affairs & they went out to bar dancing -- summer trip,<BR>fall trip & when my W stayed over at Christmas. <BR>Special bonding here!<BR>On Christmas (back home -350 miles away) I overheard my W & her<BR>cousins making plans to go out & I heard my W say she<BR>could not go out on a particular night because she was<BR>supposed to meet someone. My W does not know I heard<BR>this conversation. I was suspicious about her, but<BR>had not discovered anything at the time.<BR>We are headed out home in two weeks to celebrate<BR>my W's parent's 50th anniversary. She has hinted that she<BR>really misses her parents & I feel sure she is going<BR>to suggest her staying behind for a while. I am<BR>concerned about the environment & temptations.<BR>Would you recommend I insist she come back with me? <BR>She gives me a lot of feedback that I am too<BR>controlling & cannot put her in a box. Do I give her<BR>the benefit of the doubt & try to forget?<BR>Thanks again!<P>another PS -- Hope you can hang in there with me!<BR>As discussed in counseling, the more I suggest an activity, the more she resists – the more together time I suggest, the more independent time she stresses is important.<P>C said it doesn’t sound like either of us is listening to the other.<P>She said in counseling it is her that has to say we can’t do something (for costs reasons). I gave an example about walking on the trail – July 5th – not done it yet – she said she is not allowed to walk alone –- she stated importance & need to have time alone to meditate, ECT. <P>This summer I remember, we spent an afternoon at a river white water rafting area – She has suggested a trip to a Park.<P>In counseling she said she explained to me when walking the dog, that she needs time alone & it is not her is trying to avoid me, but that I don’t understand – In counseling I said I try to think of things to do together that don’t cost anything – walking the dog is an example. She says she does not want to wait for me & needs individual time – That evening as it happens, I get home & she had just gone on walk with dog around this resrvior, park near our home. My W said she had mentioned before to her girlfriend if she would like to join her on walk with the dog around reservoir. My W said she had called girlfriend, but did not get answer – it was 65 degrees or or so (I thought on mild side) & my W was wearing blue jeans shorts & tight, short tank top. Time along? Calls girl friend. ??<P>I gave example of offering to go with C to swimming pool with her bikini – take some time off – In counseling she was defensive and said I’ve taken a lot of time off (as i'm talking) – I went on to explain her reaction to me about getting upset & telling me she did not need a babysitter! and she stayed i her room for the afternoon.<P>My W said I want to go to a motel & that we live alone, so what is the point!<P>We talked about the ski lesson’s my W wanted to take by herself in January & my W said it was very upsetting for me to keep bringing that up. I mentioned that the point was it was still another activity for herself and not me or us as a couple, I wanted to find something for "us” to do. C said I need to let that go – it is too upsetting for my W. I agreed I would not bring up ski lesson thing again.<P>In Counseling, my W went on to say she wants to spend time with her Parents – they’re getting old – <P>Counselor stated it was important to have time to ourselves. I never had an opportunity to completly paint a picture I recognize about my W’s preferred time alone versus together -- <BR>Acts of independence – likes to be on her own – like she said in counseling, she is always the one to say no to things (that is when I suggest an activity she does not like she normally deems too expensive):<P>Summer of 2000 – she has one week long trip to her parents at the lake – at least one night out with divorced cousins (this is when she told of her involvement with other guy, at the time it was just one evidently ??). In the fall she returned to her parent's home because of a death in the family, stayed a week – another night out with divorced cousins – Summer before last, a trip to our D’s to get her moved in – For past few years she has made a couple trips to her cousins - 300 miles away -- Summer of 2000 -- two trips to Cousin, (his wife & family) – a week one time, another time it was 10 days – I went up & spent time with her & their family – I came back by myself on a Sunday & she stayed an extra day. <BR>Christmas of 200 back at her parent's home – She stayed an extra week by herself – had plans to go out with divorced cousins -- spent a day with her Mom, rest of time with sister & divorced cousins. Came home Sunday, January 30th. In March of 2001 – another trip to D’s to help move again.<P>Expensive trips? Not as such – time off work = lost earnings – she verbalized to me “we need to make more money!" She would state that she needs more independence, opportunity to get out of rut, needs break in action. These times off were real important for her! Standing message to me – don’t call her unless it is necessary, or I have something specific to discuss. Yes, these trips make me feel dis-connected.<P>In November, December of 2000 she got involved with church youth group close to her work – Thursday evenings plus plans for weekend trips – I asked if I could go & she said “No” – she said she would have to chaperon and stay with girls – also, too costly. Had overnight sleep in, lock-out planned – fell through.<P>Dec. of 2000 -- Signed up for Appalachian Trail project at our church – week long trip to build & refurbish homes in poverty stricken area of Virginia. Not my thing, had not been hers – she gets too sore to do yard work.<P>Usually there are at least two buying trips a year where she travels overnight with her boss, female! – Chicago, Atlanta, Columbus, & Philly.<P>She had sung in the choir for several years – I had sung in choir in High School & I suggested a couple times, what if I joined the choir – she said she would quit if I joined.<P>Golf – I got her clubs 6 years ago – we will occasionally go together to driving range, but in most all cases when she plays it is as a group with other couple or in group, not just the two of us. We had coupon for two for one at executive course – never went.<P>We go to HS football games & basketball games with special couple friends – guy is my confidant on these issues.<P>We have gone & occasionally go to movies & dinner by ourselves. <P>Antiquing and flea markets -- a few times together, otherwise she normally does this on her own. At one time I believe this was a normal Wednesday activity (her day off for past few years). She makes decisions on purchases independently.<P>I do not hear much about a flea market held in same location on one Sunday Mornings of the month until the fall. I went once this past summer. This activity starts up for her in the Fall – (First Sunday of the month) this happens to be when I start teaching Sunday school. <P>Weekend trips, overnight trips – if not to family—typically with couple friends. Generally not able to justify expense for our own trip.<P>Counselor does not know of all these examples of my W independent activities; I feel my W has set the stage that any suggestion I make for her to limit her activity is now making me “the Control” Person. ??<P>We are scheduled to see C in two weeks. Do you think I should send C these examples, so she might better see my side of this story ??<BR>Assignment from C: continue to be nice to each other – look to enjoy the relationship – switch roles -- I am to be more independent & her the pursuer – I am to respect her need to have time alone – she is to try to find things to do together.<BR>I am not to bring up any Marriage enrichment idea as it creates too much tension for my W. C suggested to W for her to not look at it as work, but a process that I initiate -- W not receptive, C dropped it. C said she could recommend a book on improving relationships -- My W said she does not have a sit down job like me -- has no time. C said, it was one that she cold pick out sections. My W stated she did that with books I recomended -- nothing since March. C said to W, "It sounds like you are booked out for now?" W agreed. C said if you are interested to let her know -- My W's prior objections to MB was that it was my recommendations & she felt controlled -- I have always said to her that she can pick a book or concept -- she has made point C never recommended anything. Committed ???<BR>I'm trying hard to be objective and fair!<BR>Peace,<BR>HH<P>

HH,<P>I am going to say some very undiplomatic things here, so feel free to skip this post. But, you are obsessing and you ARE trying to control things. Please reread your last post.<P>You KNOW your W had an affair.<P>You KNOW you cannot control your W, and if she decides to have another affair you cannot do anything about it, because it could be anywhere and any time.<P>You KNOW her behavior says very clearly that she has problems and is looking elsewhere for her validation.<P>KNOWING all of these things, why are you still playing this game???<P>You either decide to back off and that means no more trying to educate her (big LB), no more being her fashion consultant, it may even mean no more marriage (that is your choice not her's right now) or you will most assuredly be divorced from her or in a rubber room.<P>HH, back off way off. You idea of being quiet in the counseling session is excellent. You are trying to control her by getting the counselor on your side. HH, this is not a debating contest, nor is it a jury trial. It is simply about whether you or your W wants to be married to the other. <P>If you cannot stand her behavior and you have expressed how you feel and she continues, I think the message is clear. Other things are more important to her than you. You know from her family history that they seem to think little of the sanctity of sex. It is purely recreation for them. <P>You are going to have to decide if you can accept her or not, because you are not going to change her. Only she can do that and she has to want to. Don't think that divorcing her will make her change. That is a really dumb reason for divorce. It is to end the relationship, not to make someone change.<P>You need to focus on yourself. What your boundaries are. What you want out of life and whether you want to be married in this situation. <P>You might try backing way off and losing the LB's and see if that changes things, but ultimately YOU must decide if YOU can and will accept her behavior. If not, then protect yourself, get a good lawyer and divorce her. If she changes and you decide you can handle it, then do so.<P>But, HH you must quit obsessing about this situation, it hurts you, and it destroys any chance you have to have a marriage that you want.<P>Sorry, to be so blunt. But, it is a guy thing as you know.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>HH,<P>I am going to say some very undiplomatic things here, so feel free to skip this post. But, you are obsessing and you ARE trying to control things. Please reread your last post.<BR>Sorry, to be so blunt. But, it is a guy thing as you know.<BR>God Bless,<BR>JL<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>JL,<BR>Thanks! That was not too painful! I understand!<BR>I am hearing very similar message from another resource & it is starting to sink in!<BR>Prayers & love to you!<BR>HH<BR>PS I just had a thought, perhaps I should encourage her to stay behind with her parents -- we can take a time out --stay a month or so if you like kind of appraoch --<P><BR>

HH,<P>There you go again. Trying to control her. Let her ask to stay. Ask her how long she would like to stay. Then let her stay as long as she likes. As you said, a time out might be useful. However, don't suggest it. Let her do it. Remember NO CONTROL. It is hard isn't it to just let her do her thing???<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>HH,<P> Let her do it. Remember NO CONTROL. It is hard isn't it to just let her do her thing???<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>JL,<BR>Thanks for hangin with here with me! I'll be Mr. Laid Back as opposed to Mr. Uptight!<BR>Good point about the counseling not being a debate -- I can now see more clearly that I want to bring up more, past transgressions. I feel I've been totally manipulated in past, but I am just going to kick back & observe.<BR>Peace,<BR>HH<P>

Dear HH,<BR>I have to agree with what JL is saying...go back and read your posts - same theme, nothing has changed re your W. She will not change until she decides it is something she wants to do...you are driving yourself crazy. <BR>But, I am not one to talk...!!! I think JL got frustrated with me 'not listening' and stopped posting to me. I am finally getting the point, have finally reached the stage(I think)in which I am going to work on me, keep focused on the plan Steve has laid out, but not obsess about what H is doing or not doing. Eventually, it will end in an improved m or divorce, and I least I will know I have tried and worked my rear off. As TH and Steve have said to me, eventually I will know if H is sincere or once again 'lying' to me, and I will know what to do then; yet, in the meantime, I can't control what he does - it has to come from him; I can't make him meet my needs, etc. Yet, according to Steve, if we follow his program, we should fall in love again, or if we don't, I will know H has not bought into it and m is over... Have you considered counseling with Steve? He is really good. I like our C here, too, but my H responds well to Steve and likes that he has specific things for us to do.<BR>I agree that this is so difficult!!! wish things were different, but they aren't. I think your W and my H are in major MLC. There is a post in GQ about MLC - it's good!<BR>Have you read it - it is about men, but think it could apply to your W, too.<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>S

My dear Hurrian,<BR>You sure do have quite a "stamp collection" there! I must say I have to agree with JL on this one. You need to let go and start developing your own interests. For crying out loud if "marriage enrichment" is a love buster?!! Sheesh!<P>And what is the crime in walking the dog together? You know, I have really tried to be on your side. You know I have. I have stuck with you and read and read and thought and thought hard about my answers to your situation...<P>Now I'm coming up with some questions of my own because if a woman feels like she needs to go walk the dog alone to get a break from her hubby, something is wrong!!!<P>Do you think you act more like a father these days than a peer? Something tells me that she would respect you more if you got out there and developed some interests of your own, apart from marriage enrichment and togetherness. On the other hand, why be married?????????? <P>I'm so sorry you are facing these issues and questions. It really doesn't sound to me like your wife WANTS to be married to you. You are her financier, it seems... I see nothing wrong in walking the dog together, but she may feel like you are watching her like a policeman or something? I see how you feel like you can't trust her and you hate to see her flaunt her "really hot" body in public and also right in front of your nose. Sure, that hurts bigtime. But then, she doesn't need another father and you certainly don't need another daughter to raise.<P>I'm at a loss now Hurrian, you've really got me stumped. But one thing I'm sure of and that is your wife has grown very independent and there is nothing you can do to stop her. All you CAN do is exhibit some type of behavior that DRAWS her toward you. You have to figure out what that is because you know her better than we do. <P>I say, keep going to counseling, keep listening, keep developing yourself and your own interests and just let go of the things you cannot control, because you have to for your own health and sanity. Next thing you know, you will be on heart medication from all this stress and getting yourself all worked up over your wife's antics. She's being a real deadbeat wife, but pointing it out to her only drives her to purposely do the things you hate the most. Proceed with caution!!! {{{{{HUGS}}}}}<P>p.s.34D huh? Sounds impressive! So tell her!!! Sure, she knows it, but she wants to hear it from you over and over and over... so YOU bend a little and be proud instead of so jealous. Jealousy IS a turnoff only because of the other negative emotions that accompany, i.e., insecurity, fear, anger, ungratefulness... Come on, you're better than that, Hurrian!

S, BinthereDunthat & JL:<P>Thanks for checking in & hangin in!<BR>"Quite a Stamp Collection" Sounds cool & I thoink I get the jist, but could you elaborate?<P>I am hearing a consistent message – why focus on my W when it seems apparent that she is going to do her thing & ultimately has minimal regard for me & my feelings. Good point!! <P>To repeat, after 31 years & with all the family & friends connections I want to be sure that I am fair in my assessment of how things are in reality. <P>I can now see that over the years I subconsciously adopted a role with my W whereby I normally put her expressed needs & wants first & I thought I was doing what I should as a Christian person in a marital relationship. What I instinctively knew but choose to deny was that my W did not have similar goals. Her goals and motivations & way of dealing with me have always been pretty much self-centered. <P>Unfortunately, this self-centered attitude even manifested itself with competition for the love from our children, in that if they seemed to show me attention, she made subtle & sometimes not so subtle efforts to discredit me, and criticize me which I now see as an effort to win more attention to her & her self worth. This came to light in recent years as the kids grew and left the home & started sticking up for me & telling her some of her actions and attitudes towards me were not right. She would on occasion then get made & yell at me & say, “well, are you happy, you’ve got your whish & won them over to you!” I never quite understood that attitude & would say back to her that I never saw this as competition! Can’t they love us both! <P>I have learned recently that I have unknowingly fallen into the role of what may be called a Co-Dependent, where I made her my higher power, so to speak & this is dangerous! Breaking out of that cycle is I think what you all are trying to tell me I need to do. I am beginning to better understand that message.<P>Unfortunately I have had to spend a lot of time scribing these events & agonizing over a lot of events which has caused you all to do some agonizing with me! Thanks! Thanks for your patience. It is helpful for me to see reality when I scribe these events & get some feedback like I have received from my friends – you all!<P>My W has changed & I noticed a little more change last night. These changes typically last for awhile, then we drift back into similar patterns. I will continue to be patient, but persistent with some core concepts. For one thing my W has become less aggressive in promoting her ideas that contradict mine, less argumentative. I can see that she is making a conscious effort to show me more respect. I believe everything for her has always been defined in terms of her needs & way of looking at things & that it is extremely difficult for her to be truly empathetic to my needs<P>One thing that came out in our counseling was my expression that I can see I can’t change her – she’s going to do her thing & I’m tired of trying to change certain things & I am now trying to look at the relationship & determine what is reality & try to focus more on me (& what is best for me!). You know we are now into Country music -- Toby Keith has song “I want to talk about Me!” – not sure if that is title, but that is theme – I have made that my song for her. Not really, I don’t have to talk about me, soon she should see a change in me & perhaps this will cause a change in her – like another Country song – “She changed directions, when she couldn’t change me!”<P>It is amazing! As I reflected on her time away from home last year, which has been fairly typical for a number of years, I can better see why we had in her view a “Marriage of Convenience” – I can remember that whenever I would question her need to have so much time away, without me, she would be very emphatic that this was typical & other couples did not always spend “All their time together” I never bought it, but I did not have the energy to argue. It was always easier to acquiesce. I remember she made specific reference to one of our couples friends, that the wife did things apart from husband. Be assured that wife does not come close to spending 5 – 6 weeks away from home on her own (I’m still numb to idea to be specific & count actual time)! Shortly after D/D, my best friend said he thought it was strange that my W took so much time away & separate – I think he was trying to be tactful or kind!<P>I can see from her upbringing & her dad’s influence, this kind of perspective is a strong Family trait. My W has said this has been a major topic in her counseling.<P>What is sickening with her Dad is that he professes to be such a strong Christian & he is continually preaching down to everyone about the sins of the world & judgement day is coming & that we need to get right with the Lord. He has a complete blind spot the second most important commandment, to love they neighbor as yourself. He does not internalize what I think is a consistent re-occurring theme from the passages of Jesus – Do what is right and fair to your neighbor! Virtually all decisions he makes are based on what is best for him & his immediate family. If it is a question of what it right or fair, compared to self interest, the self interest is an overriding factor. The difference is that my W has more diplomacy & tactfulness & social graces & less outspoken on certain topics that these self-serving motivations are not as obvious. It never occurred to me until the most recent discovery of her A’s that this self interest, taken to a certain level, makes any responsibility or vows to others (like a marriage vow), a distant second to their own personal agendas & self interest, like if it feels good, do it!<P>That’s my preaching for the day!<BR>Thanks again!<BR>{{{{{{{ HUGS }}}}}}}<BR>HH<BR>