Wow...interesting reading this morning!! I haven't been able to get on here lately, and this topic caught my eye, and the responses!!<P>I have never seen so many glitzy words and tennis-style back and forth responses. There are certainly some strong feelings here...I would like to add my two cents too, if that's ok. This response is not meant as an attack on S-n-L or anyone, it's just that his words did provoke some thought here, so please do not take offense at the words.<P>I am not sure if love is a decision or not, but everything that follows is...<P>We decide...<P>to commit to that one person or not<BR>to stay committed to that person or not<BR>to communicate openly and honestly with that person or not<BR>to give our love unconditionally or not<BR>to hold things against our partner or not<BR>to tell our partner when we are unhappy or not<BR>to seek solace in the arms of another when things dont go wrong or not<BR>to be strong and resist temptation or not<BR>to allow our partner to heal our hurts or not<BR>to put aside or selfish needs for those of another or not<P>I think, for myself, as a former WS...the "or nots" are what get us in trouble, allow us to look elsewhere, and damage our foundation.<BR> <BR>S-n-L...you say that you dont want to work at a relationship, but that is like saying you want your child to stay at the age of 5 or 9 or 12, whatever age you felt like it wasnt work. In order to not have any work in a relationship, it must never change. It must remain the same as the day you started it...no growth, no challenges, nothing different...(isn't that the definition of mundane? routine?) To not have to work one of two things must inherently happen...either the other partner does all the planning, growing, and adapting to you, or neither of you ever changes. Change, however, in inevitable, thus the need for work as you learn to adapt to the changes. Are you the same person now that you were at 27? If so, then your W has not had to deal with any change, but I highly doubt it. And, obviously, from the direction you took, the work was too much as your W changed, so you looked elsewhere for a better *fit*, in the short run. <P>As far as never getting married again? Does one need a piece of paper in order to tell them who they love? Methinks NOT!! That is a societal measure of keeping taxes and insurance information correct. I believe that a great number of these relationships would feel just as strongly if a piece of paper were not involved. I, however, do understand your need for being "who you are", but when you committed your life to another human being "who you are" became tied to a union with another, and yes, working together is one consequence of that choice. <P>Every choice we make comes with two consequences which leads to another set of questions and choices. Once a decision is made, then the next set of questions will arise. The measure of who you are, your measure of self worth...is directly tied to the amount of work you put into those decisions and commitments in your life. I would challenge that when you were the WS during the A, it was work...work to lie, work to cheat, work to find times, reasons, and excuses to be away from the marriage and the W. Why were you willing to put so much work into the A? Because, you decided that OW made you feel better than W, for whatever reason you can come up with. YOU worked harder at the A, than you did at the M, at least at that time.<P>For all of us, the decision to love someone or to be open to love from someone, can be a scary thing. But once we decide to let someone in, the work begins and the choices me make and how we deal with them, shape who we are going to be from that time forward. Make your choices wisely...sometimes it gets harder to do as we get older, simply because the bags are getting heavier. But as Yoda said, "Choose, you must..."<P>In the words of Patti Loveless (yes, I am a country fan)...<BR>"Life's about changes, nothin' ever stays the same"<P>Have a great day, as we all ponder the next decision...<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams."<P>Trueheart

Trueheart,<P>A very wise reply.<P>I have justtonight decided to go to Plan B. Then I read this thread. I think love can be a decision for the BS, too, cos I'm deciding that enough is enough. I particularly liked this:<P><B>We decide...<P>to commit to that one person or not<BR>to stay committed to that person or not<BR>to communicate openly and honestly with that person or not<BR>to give our love unconditionally or not<BR>to hold things against our partner or not<BR>to tell our partner when we are unhappy or not<BR>to seek solace in the arms of another when things dont go wrong or not<BR>to be strong and resist temptation or not<BR>to allow our partner to heal our hurts or not<BR>to put aside or selfish needs for those of another or not</B><P>Tonight, I can relate to a lot of those decisions.<P>

terri:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that writing this will be a lot like banging my head against a brick wall, but I am going to do it anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Truer words have not been spoken on these boards... <P>Romantic love (those feelings) is not a decision.<P>But a marriage is a decision. As is the willingness to learn and support the skills and behaviors that will bring romantic love into a relationship. And these MB skills will work for the majority of relationships in which the spouses can learn and apply them in good faith.

A part of the “love” dialogue problem is that many define it as an emotion. It is not. It is a conscious decision. For religious folk, as myself, love is defined as patient, kind, not rude, not self-seeking, etc, etc from the book of 1 Cor 13:4. But aside from what it IS, where does it COME FROM?? 1 Tim 1:5 states it comes from a “pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith”. With this you can never convince me that any affair involves love.

SnL: Will Thinker read something else? It's called "From Anger to Forgiveness", by Earnie Larsen. It's really enlightening. I've had some problems of my own with anger and depression. I can actually see where Thinker's coming from; a toxic relationship with her parents and a mother who rejected her totally, followed by an on-again, off-again relationship with you before marriage. If you read it too, it may help you understand some of the dynamics. <P>It is a decision to free yourself of smouldering anger. It takes hard work to undo the wiring. But it's so good to be free, it's worth the pain.<P>Also, you said two things that leapt out at me: one, that you have a powerful drive to rescue. Two, that OW married without love, to be safe, has spent 28 years in marriage just drifting, unable to make a move either to leave or to fix things. Are you sure you don't just want to rescue her?

yes jso, I am rescuing her, but that is only part of it, and I am aware of this. The problem is it is a feeling closely related to the male drive to protect their females, which is a good thing.....the point is not to marry for that reason alone. I still also want to rescue (from herself) and protect my w..... I will never let my w suffer, I am obligated to take care of her, but I can do that just as easily married as not. Marriage should be (IMO) an intimate relationship that is chosen on the basis of total selfishness...not to get what you want, but who you want to be with. And that is not a rational decision alone, can never be, it must be made by the heart too (IMO). If you deny your heart, your body will betray you. Depression, lack of sexual desire, panic type disorders, stress syndromes. This is especially acute if you know where you should be, and force yourself to be somewhere else. But it is bad enough if you simply just know you don't belong where you are.

"yes jso, I am rescuing her, but that is only part of it, and I am aware of this. The problem is it is a feeling closely related to the male drive to protect their females, which is a good thing.....the point is not to marry for that reason alone. I still also want to rescue (from herself) and protect my w..... I will never let my w suffer, I am obligated to take care of her, but I can do that just as easily married as not. Marriage should be (IMO) an intimate relationship that is chosen on the basis of total selfishness...not to get what you want, but who you want to be with. And that is not a rational decision alone, can never be, it must be made by the heart too (IMO). If you deny your heart, your body will betray you. Depression, lack of sexual desire, panic type disorders, stress syndromes. This is especially acute if you know where you should be, and force yourself to be somewhere else. But it is bad enough if you simply just know you don't belong where you are."<P>Well, I don't know how to do the fancy quotation stuff, but I do feel I want to respond...<P>Have you grown to the point that you now realize why you married her? You didn't realize before? Are you saying your marriage was one of convenience? Convenient for your male ego to defend and protect, and convenient for her to have a protector? Neither of you loved? Neither of you knew who you were, let alone the other when you made the decision to commit your life to one another? (I don't believe that for one moment based on the way you write.) You didn't suddenly wake up to this revelation one morning. You say you want to rescue your W (from herself)..what is so detrimental in her character that you feel the need to rescue her? What if it is your ego or sense of worth that needs to be filled by rescuing someone? What if she doesnt need to be rescued, but loved? What if her character flaw that you are looking to *fix* or *rescue* is that she needs your love? Love that you withhold by giving her reasons to not believe? What if, as you say, she is putting aside selfishness for who she wants to be with? What if thinker has already thought, and now knows that what she wants and feels is you....the real you.....not the analyzer that has to have a reason for everything in order for it to *fit*? What if, in order for something to fit, it doesn't have to be forced? Does it then become irrational because it can't be analyzed?<P>"If you deny your heart, your body will betray you."<BR>Not if the mind (decision) does not allow it. That is a decision...not a feeling. You had feelings for your wife when you got married...it wasn't an armed forces draft situation, that you "had" to report, correct? And if you had feelings you were doing the wrong thing, then you surely did the unselfish thing in marrying, or didn't know yourself well enough to make a decision at the time. So, not only does the marriage become work, but so does the relationship with one's own self. I believe that many of us run from ourselves and hide behind psychological reasoning and theory and conjecture, so we don't have to make a decision on who we are...it is easier to have a textbook label and excuses for not making any decisions about us or our lives or actions. <P>It takes a lot of work to make us who we are and want to be, and somewhere in there, a decision on who we love, what type of person we want to be with...and those are decisions we make, based on our years with ourselves and our experiences, and then the feelings grow. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong about when feelings and decisions crossover nor which comes first (the chicken or the egg thingy?), but both are definitely involved.<P>LOL..I gotta quit writing these long replies...I get too wordy. Sorry!! Just trying to help!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

^^