Hey Dumplin,<P>I'm here. I know you're upset tonight. I'm sorry, sweetie.<P>When I read your post it felt like it was me about 10 years ago. My H use to do the same damn thing, he'd stay at the hotel/motel by where he played even tho the place he played was only an hour away. I really worried when he did that, and he knew it. <P>Gawd, he and I would go thru so many of his phases .... from "I LIKE GOING ON THE ROAD" to "I LOVE BEING MARRIED" back to "I LIKE GOING ON THE ROAD" .... with Definition of "GOING ON THE ROAD" being pretending like he is single and doing things that only single people do. <P>If you're worried that the OW is where he's playing you could always call and ask for her or have her paged, if she answers, then hang up. OMG! ..... I shouldn't have told you to do that. But if you know she isn't there you could probably relax and get some sleep tonight.<P>Are you still here, Dumplin?<P>Jo

dumplin,<P>I am not married to a musician, but I am here tonight (at least for a little while longer) and I answered your thread over on In Recovery.<P>Just read about the e-mail thing. I removed OW's name from my H's contacts, months after the A ended. He would not agree to absolutely no contact (impossible for work reasons, he said; our MC did not buy that but, of course, I went along because I did not want to LB and was doing the plan A thing). So, I would find OW's name in his contacts a while after I removed it. I would mention it; he would either get angry or explain he had to send out an e-mail to a distribution list that she "had" to be one (or both). I would ask for a copy of the e-mail, which he had promised to send me but seemed to "forget" way more often than not. I would go back to his contacts list and remove OW's name again. Then I would find it back on the contacts, and the whole cycle became too predictable. More lies, more half truths, more deception. And somehow he had the gall to get frustrated with me and ask "why can't you trust me after all this time?".<P>Okay, I digress a little.<P>The point I was trying to make is that the cycle did eventually come to an end - when all contact with OW really did end. He actually took her off his contacts and her name has never reappeared. He actually told me about any mention of her by a third party, without me even bringing up anything remotely related. He said he was making it "his mission in life" to not have any contact of any kind with OW ever again.<P>What a difference no contact made!<P>I don't mean to be skeptical, but your H does sound like he's "there" yet. What do you think?<P>OneDay

Hey Jo, you and I must have read the same PI maunual! Making phone calls, paging OW. Done it all! In August I found a note to H from a woman who lives in his building, inviting him to her BD party. As far as I knew, she and H had only passing in the halls relationship. Then attached to the BD party invite (at a restauraunt in town) was a hand written sticky-note. " H., hope you can make the party. If not, maybe we can get together for cocktails one night after work". I flipped out. I was spending the day of her party in Canada with the kids and another mom for a moms and kids weekend. Yes, I looked the # up and called to make sure he wasn't there. Why is someone he supposedly barely speaks to inviting him to her BD party? Or out for cocktails? And why is he keeping these invitaions if he has no intention of going? Didn't make sense to me. Still doesn't. Is this LB-ing? Even if he doesn't know I'm checking up? Even if he SAYS I should check up? <P>Seriously, where do you draw the line? This is begining to sound like an obsession which is why I just crumbled and gave up this week. I have no energy to spend on myself when all I can do is worry about what he will or won't choose to do. And isn't it obvious that I NEED to spend more time and energy on myself, since he really isn't spending any of his on me at all? <P>I'm sorry you're going through this, D. I was just there a few weeks ago with the trip to SanFran. The anxiety, the wondering, the ANGER is so overwhelming. I couldn't sleep, could barely work... even my regulars at work noiced I wasn't up to my usual antics. <P>For me, him just playing out withdrew those precious LU's. He just didn't get it. And it is exactly because of what Jo and Fairydust describe. I've seen enough of that backstage action, too. Years ago in another lifetime, in another metropolis, I used to book nightclubs. Saw that crap going on all the time. Even in my freewheeling, never-say-die youth, the groupies repulsed me. <P>I remember being on a tour bus with some friends, coworkers and road crew. These two little girls, who couldn't have been older than 17, came onto the bus with two other roadies -- both much older, and married -- went into the back, did whatever they did. The girls came out not five minutes later with backstage passes in their hands, looking much worse for the wear but really excited about getting a shot at the bigger prize, the band. Icchh... I don't know why that moment stands out so much more prominently than the others. Maybe because the girls just looked like such babies. Maybe because the road manager asked them, as they were leaving, if they were ashamed of themselves for what they'd just done, especially walking off the bus in front of other ladies (me and my co-worker) who wouldn't stoop to those levels. They just giggled, looked rather clueless and said, "no". They are out there and they are ruthless! Even as pups. <P>Dumplin', I don't think e-mailing OW will do any good. She has no code of ethics that you or I would recognize, and she will either lie or ignore you. Don't stoop to her level! You're better than that! I've caved in and emailed one OW and she responded to my H, not me. I can't believe I actually expected a dignified response from such a tramp. <P>Can you call your H? Can you tell him, reasonably, calmly, how this is making you feel and that you just need some reassurance? <P>And as for your cell phone message, I think it's sweet. Should he be trying to make you feel bad for letting him know that you're always thinking of him? <P>Wish I could be there with you in person, to help you through it... but we're all here in spirit, rooting for you. <P>Snow

Thanks everyone for your support. I ended up having to get offline to get the kiddies ready for bed. That wore me out enough that I finally went to sleep. I'm feeling a little better now though since having some sleep.<P>I'm not going to call her house because she lives with her parents and everytime I've called H has found out and it's a major LB for him. He can have contact, but I can't--LOL.<P>No, I don't think he's fully there yet. He says we both need to work on ourselves. He came to MB and read some of the articles, but I think he only read what he could use to help his cause and not the whole thing.<P>I'm stuck in between wanting to wring his neck and wanting to just give in and trust him. I'm so afraid though if I do give in it will blow up in my face. Just like last time when there was "no contact" and he had started talking to her again, I would have never known if I would have believed what he was saying. He was so adamant that it seemed impossible. I just don't know what to believe anymore. If I had the money, I would hire a private detective to put some of my fears to ease. Or find out that I just need to give up. I have other thoughts, but I'm not going to put them on here for H to find later.<P>How is everyone else doing? We've spent so much time talking about my problems that no one else really has gotten to say anything about their problems.

Well there you are, Anna! I'd been looking for you over on ENs. <P>Can I join too? My H is a drummer, was lead vocals in a band several years ago, managed a metal band (ugh), bartended, and now manages a strip club. <P>I think I'm afraid to see what the NEXT phase might be! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<P>This battle of wills over going to the shows is such an odd thing, isn't it. These fellahs DO have their points. Our presence there is a distraction and/or concern on many levels for them. And it IS their job, yessiree, we don't wanna inhibit the flow of the breadearning, right? But then, there's the W at home, feeling isolated and somehow at times sort of sub-human...because everyone ELSE gets to go to the shows. Not fair, is it? <P>I was banned from going to the metal shows too. We'd fight about it, round and round. And sometimes I was sweet as pie about it (and he wondered what I was up to). His reasoning for banning me? I got too upset -- said my upset upset him -- fussed at him about what barflys or groupies did when HE wasn't doing anything wrong, and then there was the very logical and seemingly caring concern over my physical safety. <P>Just last night re: the strip club...H worked and all our kids were spending the night with relatives. So here I am alone, and H is chattering about how his boss (the owner) had family coming in to meet him...a big money night to boot being Friday night, the bar busy and packed...and of course, I'm not invited to come up there. From his viewpoint, why should I be? It's his job and he'd be running around like a chicken with his head cut off. From my viewpoint, what better night for me TO be up there for awhile. Oh well. I didn't go. I stayed home in a sort of withdrawal, wondering why it feels like life is passing me by! I have to find solo things to do because my escort-mate-companion is not available!<P>Ya know, all these things are topics to be POJA'd. Anna, if you're going to make a go of your marriage it's going to take lots of time, empathy toward each other, and mega-patience. I do think you should occasionally attend the shows and you're going to have to TALK to him about it. Or, go on your own and behave beautifully for his agreement in the future. Or, both! <P>What your H doesn't understand (or refuses to acknowledge) is that it's very important for you to know what's going on. And to feel a part of things. <P>Now I'm a rabble rouser by suggesting this, but why don't you plop on a wig some night and go? See for yourself what's going on. It will probably spell trouble but I think you're a Miss Inquisitive like me. H and I sometimes have to go from a strong conflict stage to GET to the intimacy part. And a little bit of that ole push and shove technique sometimes helps. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Just be careful if you do, and don't set that ex-OW on fire or something. You ARE his W, and you must always give the impression of the upperhand in these matters with other women. Now if you see something you don't like, pick your time and tell him how you feel. Then listen and understand his point of view TOO, as tough as it is. <P>It would be great if you could find a way to be more involved with the band. Be their fan club president? Host parties? Help with promotion? Manage a merchandise booth at the shows?

Hey Laura,<P>Have't talked to you in a while. How've you been? Yes, I feel like I should be able to go to some of his shows and yes he does make some valid points about my safety. I've never had a problem when I've went to his shows in the past though. I had one guy slap my behind, but I took care of it myself. Also, a bunch of people around me took care of it. The guy hasn't bothered me at any other shows since.<P>I've actually considered the wig thing before, but since we've been together so long I don't think it would work unless I got a body suit too--LOL! Been seriously considering a private detective though. Maybe I wouldn't have to do so much work then, the PI could take care it for me. Anyway, it wouldn't be during the show that anything would be going on, it would be after or before the show at the hotel room.<P>I do have one ray of hope though. His brother is in the band and has had enough of the crap. He has told his mother that he won't put up with it anymore and he won't stay there if that crap is going on. I think (hope) that he would let me know if anything is going on since he knows I'm at my wits end. I also know he would say something to his mother who would tell me. I think it's a little ridiculous though that I even have to go through all this.<P>I've decided that I'm going to have a long talk with H. Maybe write him a letter so I won't LB. I have needs and that includes reassurance. He has to realize with the back and forth of no contact that I am going to have a harder time getting over this. I can't just believe him this time when he's lied about the same thing before. He expects me to just believe him and stop snooping.<P>I'm just tired of the whole thing; I want it right one way or another. If it turns out to be the end of our relationship then at least I'll have some resolution.

Good morning guys!<P>You know, at one time almost all of my female friends were/are spouses or ex-spouses of a musician. After nearly 25 years of my life in the music biz because of my H, I have seen so many marriages and relationships go thru this same thing, all the same challenges. Some make it and some don't (I'd say it's a 75%-25% stat, with 75% being not making it) I don't mean to sound grim about it, just realistic.<P>There are a few of my friends that are still married to their musician H's and their H's seem very much into marriage, family, church and living right ... however "IT IS HARD" and takes work. I believe more work than the average Bear marriage.<P>The H's of these friends are pretty special people, with character and conviction, and their wives are devoted to them. IMHO, it takes maturity and a very enlightened grounded man to recognize what is really important and have the abiility to balance and prioritize the love of their music and it's nuances, and their family values. <P>What I'd like to do is hear from you guys; Dumplin, Snow, Fairy, Running, Lucks, on what you think these men (or their wives) have that our H's do not. What precisely makes their marriages work?<P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Jo--<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>on what you think these men (or their wives) have that our H's do not. What precisely makes their marriages work?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think they are instinctively following MB concepts! Radical honesty, trust, the ability to talk through things and the needs of each are just as important as the other's.<P>I don't know, Anna...blood is pretty thick. I'm not sure the brother would tell you if something is actually going on.

Hi Jo. I think I understand your question (coffee hasn't kicked in yet). What do the 25% who work it out, or their wives, have that the other 75% who don't make it lack?<P>Of the musicians that I've known, it's really pretty simple. They're grounded in reality. <P>I have a self esteem theory about that too. People with low self esteem who also happen to be musically talented seem to get more than professional validation from an adoring crowd. They somehow confuse that temporary adoration and emotionally transfer it to other fascets of their lives. Does that make sense? <P>They feeling they get is, "This crowd LOVES me, these groupies are all OVER me. I MUST not only be a great musician, I'm really great looking, I have charisma, I'm a great dad, I'm a great friend, I'm a great person, everyone wants to be around me all of the time." They don't get that it's part of "the scene", they take it very personally. <P>My H. seems to need a lot of this. Constant re-enforcement of his worth from other people, and playing live is the quickest fix. He's even TOLD me that all of the OW made him feel desireable, they "wanted" him. Of course, I had to laugh. What they wanted was a fantasy, a person they barely knew, someone who, encountered in "real life" ,they may not look at twice. <P>Then there are the guys (and gals) whose self-esteem isn't so wrapped up in what other people think of them. They go out, do their job, go home. I spent an hour talking to two of THOSE guys last night. Both married, more than 15 years each, both career musicians. Both with kids and houses and wives, boy scout meetings and soccer games to go to and without desire to stray. Neither are "church going", so I don't think that has anything to do with it. These two have never struck me as "needy". They're never checking out other women, much less talking to them. They sit at the bar with me, have a beer or two while we talk about our families and they go home. They're just plain old good people. <P>Their wives? One is older than her H. by a few years. They run an antiques business together on the side. She NEVER comes to see him play anymore. Too much work with the kids and business at home. The other is her husbands peer in age and has come out maybe three times this year to see him. That's with this guy playing two shows every weekend. I don't know that these wives have "done" anything special. I think they just married people who don't cheat. Rather, people with enough self esteem and self respect to NOT cheat. (They are out there, right?) <P>Snow

My H has actually sat and told me that he knows women that normally wouldn't give him a second glance "want" him because he's a musician. Maybe that's why he's so determined not to quit--LOL! Sorry had to say it.<P>Right now, I'm so confused about everything that I really don't know what to say. I haven't been online most of today because I'm just trying to figure it all out in my head. Of course, it's all just bouncing around and around. Don't know if I'm really getting anywhere. Don't want to screw it up, but I don't want to be screwed over at the same time. AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGG!<P>Hey, if anyone wants to e-mail me, they can at any time. I'll be online for a little while tonight, but probably won't post much. Just lurk around and read--try to get my thoughts in order.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><P> IMHO, it takes maturity and a very enlightened grounded man to recognize what is really important and have the abiility to balance and prioritize the love of their music and it's nuances, and their family values. <P>What I'd like to do is hear from you guys; Dumplin, Snow, Fairy, Running, Lucks, on what you think these men (or their wives) have that our H's do not. What precisely makes their marriages work?<P>Love,<BR>Jo<P>[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ][/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I think the most important of all of the things you mentioned Jo is that it takes a MATURE man. I have to admit that I have only known ONE musicaian who wasn't a cheater, and didn't want to be. He was married to his high school sweetheart and she dumped him for an OM. He was crushed, but still isn't a cheater (he's not remarried but has a seruious girlfriend). In his case it's just the way he is. That sort of thing holds no appeal for him. But for other guys maturity is such a huge factor. So many musicians have Peter Pan syndrome, they can't face the fact that they are getting older. The fact that they might not "make it big" in music. I sat in the same room with my ex's band and a record company guy and listened to them all lie about their ages by 5 years (and they were still in their 20s!). But when they are onstage they become ageless, the groupies think "rock star" instead of "middle aged guy with a family and bills to pay". The guy who is still trying to hang onto his youth through music is a prime target for groupies.<P>The reformed serial cheater musicians I know all sort of hit a wall of realization at some point in time. I think some of it may have just been the novelty of all the women wearing off. After you sample huge numbers of chocolates none of them are that special and it gets boring. These guys realized and accepted that they were getting older and these women wouldn't give them the time of day if they weren't onstage. Then they realized that it mattered to them why someone was interested. And they knew that their wives loved them for who they were, and if they never stepped onstage again it wouldn't matter to their wives. <P>Some men have that revelation and some never do. My ex loved the adoration, could have cared less if a girl was only interested because he was onstage, and had every intention of riding that train until the bitter end. Some people never grow up. Ever heard the old joke "What's the difference between a musician and a savings bond?" answer "A bond eventually matures"

FairyDust,<P>You hit the proverbial nail on the head. Your last paragraph regarding your ex is my H in disguise. <P>My H is sooooooooo concerned about his age and his looks. His dad died in his early 60's and I believe my H used his dad as a yardstick regarding his longevity. At one point in the infancy stage of his A, H kept saying "I have to figure out what I'm going to do with the next 20 years of my life" .... to me he was saying I only have 20 more years to live and I failed as a "make-it-big musician" so now I need to grab the years I have left and start a new life with a new plan. (i.e., ditch my old life which includes my wife of 20 years and start anew). As a matter of fact, my H kept saying (blaming) I was the reason he was not famous ... very immature, and ridiculously absurd.<P>In the encylopdedia under Peter Pan Syndrome there is a pic of my H. Poster *boy* for "I don't wanna grow up".<P>I know I sound mad at H ... that's because I am. <P>Jo<p>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Anna--<P>How are things with H back home? You're being quiet....

Dumplin... where are you?<P>Jo

I'm here. I had a long talk with H on Sunday when he got home and I gave him my trust. I just told him don't blow it this time. Having a hard time though. Not with H; with myself. Wondering if I'm a fool. I'm still here, just haven't really felt like posting anything. I was home yesterday and didn't get a chance to go online.

Hello peoples. How's everyone doing? I've figured out my problem. I gave H my trust but began building a wall around myself so if he did screw up, it wouldn't hurt as bad. I'm just feeling low. H is acting like we're roommates-he says until we can get to the point of starting to rebuild our relationship. I feel lonely and love-starved. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <P>I've told H how I feel, but so far haven't seen anything. He didn't even respond last night when I told him I loved him. He made a smart remark that I only said that because I knew he was dying (he is sick so he thinks he's dying) and I replied that he made a smart remark so he wouldn't have to say he loved me. I said it as jokingly as he did so it didn't start a fight, but I really meant it. I don't want a roomie; I want a husband. I've also started (since that incident last night) to refer to him as "buddy of mine" or "roomie". He sort of gave me a funny look, but never said anything. Does this get any better or is this an indication that he doesn't want us to be together. H has told me that he's there because of lack of money, the kids, and the hope that I can become the woman I used to be when he married me.

What about you Dumplin', what do YOU want to be?

Well there ya go, Dumplin. He wants you to be the person he first married. So how are you different now? Lets see ..... kids, school, housework, job, car care, yardwork, laundry, bills, and on and on .... jeeeeez, I just can't imagine. lol<P>Maybe try probing more, and ask him what qualities he's missing about the old-you. Perhaps they may be an EN of his, no?<P>Jo

Well, let's see. The old me was allowed to go to his shows is the first thought that pops in my head. The old me was able to call home without being accused of checking up on him. Can anyone tell I'm angry and frustrated. Yes, the old me didn't have to deal with trying to pay the bills with no money. We had less money, but he worked a regular job and we had less bills. Now I have a better paying job, but I have to drive 45 minutes back and forth everyday. I also have a three year old and a nine year old (had the nine year old that was three when we met). He doesn't have a regular amount that I can count on every week and we have more bills. Yippy, I can be carefree and not worry. Yeah right. I'm exhausted emotionally, physically, and mentally. Also, I had a husband who showed me he loved me in many ways. Now, I have a man that sits on the couch, works on band stuff, or is gone doing band stuff. Hhhhmmm. Wonder if that affects anything? Irritation, aggravation....<P>Any help here?<P>Sorry, Snow, I really don't understand your question.

It does suck Baaaaaad, Dumplin. But the thing is the only way your musician H will get motivated to meet your needs, is if you start meeting his. It's UNFAIR .. I know!, on top of everything else [namely his A] you have to be the one to start the ball rolling, you have to lead him to the river, before he drinks ... BUT DON'T PUSH HIM IN! LMAO<P>I really think this is the only way. I don't know if he'll come around if you get more aggravated and start to withdraw more, do you?<P>I would decide if you are going to try and meet his needs, I'd give it a deadline. Something like 3 mos just as an example. Make a list of his needs and in those 3 mos check off if you met them. At the end of 3 mos, revisit how things are, if he's still on his fence regarding your needs, you can take action. <P>What do you think?<P>Jo