Jo, in this and a few other posts I sense you are kinda discombuberated, stuck a little between what you had (marriage) and what you have now (unknown future)...that maybe you are uncomfortable, scared a little, still can't accept what happened (and all that that implies about your ability to discern stuff, and whether you can really "trust" anyone...and so forth), and a little angry still. Forgive me if wrong, just been worrying a little about you. For what it is worth here are a few of my (endless) thoughts.<p>jo...This has been on my mind off and on for a while now. So I'm bringing it up for discussion.
When the WS involved themselves in an A, at some point they made a conscious decision to cross that line, where it went from friends to a full blown intimate A. I realize at first they may have "unconsciously", out of unmet needs, innocently allowed themselves to become close to an OP and felt is was an appropriate friendship, unaware of the A potential. But eventually they did make a "decision" and had an A.<p>Jo...My point is, the BS never made a conscious decision, at least I didn't, not to meet the WS's needs which eminently drove them to that A. <p>snl....It is almost a litany, ws do so cause needs weren't met, they fell into the clutches of op (honorable or predatory, makes no difference), and it is so unfair cause bs never had a chance....yada yada yada..... Personally I don't believe this. I do think a "part" of the pathology of an affair is the marital atmosphere, but that is not a "fault" issue. That is a real live reality. If hindsight were 20/20 we would all be in different places (and probably many if not most, married to different people) so this does us no good in closure. Just accept that part as a learning experience, like the rest of life which operates the same way.....REALITY. So whatever the marital atmosphere, (and affairs happen to all levels of marriages some of the best have affairs, and some of the worst do not). But in general a neglectful marriage is more vulnerable for sure, only you know how much that applies to you, but you also know how to recognize your role, and avoid it in the future now. <p>As for your H (or the ws in general) whoever in the marriage is the most "unahppy" (whether we as peers think they have cause or not) is the more likely to have an affair first. Right or wrong, you were the more content, and therefore less willing to act in a manner that would put the marriage at risk. IMO that is the story behind all the bs that claim they would never wander. That is cause they put a higher value on the psychological benefits (to them) of not wandering than they do on finding a mate through an affair (and a good strategy statistically for them). I don't think they are any more moral, just more shrewd about the cost/benefit analysis of choosing an affair.<p>This is gonna vary considerably (naturally) depending on the people and the circumstances. The point is the bs has no reason to blame themself for their part, they have no way of knowing they could even have made a difference. Much disharmony IMO is about fitting and has nothing to do with EN, except that people who do not fit well have less ability to meet needs (or have theirs met). So especially those bs who were trying to communicate, didn't use a lot of control techniques (anger, passive/agression etc.) and were not conflict avoiding...and who were basically meeting needs and sexually available, have almost no reason to feel they failed. Sort of like out driving and being reasonably prudent, and get run into by some other driver (for their own reasons), yes if you had been perfectly vigilant, you may have seen it coming, and could have taken some action....but you didn't, and you can choose to blame yourself over your broken leg, and be paranoid while driving, or just figure them's the breaks, crap happens, and it is pretty much the other guys fault he ran into you. Or even worse, maybe you both were being reasonable, prudent drivers, and still had the accident....ya know? That is just how life works, trying to figure out why is useful to maybe improve the odds in the future (of avoiding the accident) but internalizing blame is not healthy.<p>There is one and only one reason a ws wanders, has nothing to do with bs, or needs, or the phase of the moon....we wander cause we want to. We may have not made a concious decision to set out (those who do have serious psychological issues IMO), but we are not children. At some point you realize you feel romantic love for someone other than your spouse, you know that this breaks a rule, and you either walk away (rare), or you act on it. The reason being (fog or not) you are now in pursuit mode, you are doing what human beings are wired to do, you are pursuing another human being to mate with. I could explain what goes through ones mind at this point, I remember it all, and I have analyzed it to death as well [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But the point is, it is NOT about you (the bs) at all, it is not about needs at all (although it is related) it is about pursuit (and being pursued). Some bs think/feel this is a rejection of them.... it is NOT..... for all practical purposes you (the bs) cease to exist in the ws world. That may look, and feel, like rejection, I can understand that, but it isn't, and the difference is significant.<p>jo...When we talk about how "a Vow is a Vow is a Vow" regarding our marriages, I agree that our WS were possibly in deep pain because the BS may not have been meeting a need or needs that they "Vow'd" to meet. Yet it wasn't a conscious decision on the BS part to NOT meet those needs.<p>snl...Volition (that bs purposely neglected us)plays no role is this, or much of anything humans do, for the most part we (all of us) don't really care why we feel a certain way, we just act on it. IMO a ws that blames the bs is not taking responsibility for themself as an adult. In my case, I was indeed pretty unhappy, but I knew the proper solution was divorce (if our marriage was not going to improve), before seeking a relationship with someone else (I knew I didn't want to be along all my life, been alone to long allready). I didn't pursue the ow cause my wife neglected me, and I assessed she did it on purpose, I don't blame my wife for anything (despite accusations by some who say that is what I write, they are just not reading close enough, and don't recognize analysis when they see it), I pursued cause I wanted to. I came to value the relationship, and I did not want to lose it.<p>jo.....I'm not trying to shurk or justify what I feel was my part in what utlimately ended my marriage. I accept that responsibility and I now know exactly what I didn't do. I'm just confused when I hear how I wasn't meeting my H's needs (a Vow) therefore he failed to keep his Vows and had an affair.<p>snl....If he tells you this he is messing with your head (which I think is true, cause from your posts IMO your H has sociopathic tendencies). You did nothing wrong, and IMO there is nothing you could do which would have saved your marriage, at least not in the sense of saved it to be a nurturing caring safe place for you. I suspect you mounrn the loss of the picture, the loss of something that never actually existed, and never would, if you seek understanding of that you will seek forever, cause the answer does not lie in what you did jo.<p>My advice is simple. I won't tell you to quit obsessing over this, cause you will obsess anyways [we all dearly value our obsessions and fight to keep them, I know I do [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ]. But maybe you can do this (if not already doing it) make it a mission to get involved in new stuff, new people...church, hobbies, social activism/volunteering, school, exercise/atheletics just do it Jo, and after awhile this will all make a lot more sense to you.

snl,<p>However true this statement <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>for all practical purposes you (the bs) cease to exist in the ws world.<hr></blockquote> may be, it is horrifying. For "the BS" substitute anyone else with whom you have had a long term relationship - a child, mother, best friend, even a golden retriever - and this statement would be condemned as cruel and selfish. How can it not be cruel and selfish in the case of the wife? <p>Unfortunately, in many, if not most, cases, other family members, especially children, do effectively cease to exist for the WS, as does often any sense of responsibility - towards home, job, and community. If this is in fact the result of a biological mandate, something has gone terribly, terribly wrong, for from an evolutionary perspective the results of neglecting your carefully nurtured genes (aka children), as well as the tasks of food production and shelter maintenance, would likely be disasterous. <p>I would counter that in most cases the affair is a result of a disease process (depression), and that the affair produces chemical changes in the brain that results in relief from this depression. Like the rats who would starve in order to continue working for stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain, the human being in this situation cares about nothing other than the relief from depression. <p>Why are depression-related affairs so common - why is depression so common when you would think that it would be selected against? I suspect that depression is so common because it no longer has as strong a selective disadvantage as it once did - certainly people who were so depressed that they couldn't get out of bed in the morning wouldn't have lasted long as hunter-gatherers. I also think that there is a link between the genes that result in depression and genes related to certain types of intelligence, which has resulted in selective pressure toward an increase in the frequency of depression.

Nellie,<p>You hit the nail on the head as far as my WDIL's situation. She was deeply depressed, and is even more so now 5 months past d-day as she grapples with the disasterous effects that her A has had on her little boy and my son. And on herself, for that matter.<p>My son thought that dealing with her mood swings was just part of loving her and accepted her as she was. As aftershock said earlier:<p>________________________________________________
You are correct - BS's do not know they are not meeting the needs - we think that everything is okay - but it is not. And the worst part of the entire thing is - that they do not give us the chance to fix anything - before they go out and do the A/EA/PA.
________________________________________________<p>Right on, aftershock. Son did not know DIL was catastrophically unhappy until AFTER she had initiated an A, secretly filed for divorced, and moved out-of-state with their son. He never had a chance. The A was definitely her choice, but depression helped set the stage.<p>This is a valuable thread. Maybe what we learn here is that depression in a spouse should be a red flag for vulnerability to infidelity. Again, this is not the fault of the BS. It is a weakness in the WS that the WS failed to protect (Harley).<p>Estes

To the TOP.

I have a couple of theories about this. I believe that BINthereDUNthat is right on target that an A is like a seed planted originally in the mind. Jesus revealed this in Matthew 5:28. I believe there is a point, sometimes long before the WS even meets his/her affairee, when the door in their mind opens. Whether the seed sprouts or not depends on what the person does next.<p>I remember very clearly when I became aware that my H's mind seed had been planted. Someone in my family was having an A, and I was very upset about it and tried to talk about it to my H, who had always been VERY anti-adultery since his two previous wives had been unfaithful. His response to my relative's A was to comment that "maybe his W just doesn't care". I remember standing there with my jaw dropped. It was shocking because it was so out of sync with his usual responses to adulterers.<p>I took this as a warning sign and redoubled my efforts to meet his needs. I also had a relative watch him while I was out of town on a weekend trip and at work a few times, and he passed the test, so no A during that period of time, and he didn't even meet the OW until at least 7 months after that. Because of my health and family problems and grief process, I did not meet his needs adequately even though I tried and knew the danger I was in. When I finally starting making strides in recovering, I was hoping it was in time, but soon realized it was not.<p>I also base this on my total of 25 years of married life between my two marriages. During my first M, I was attracted to other men several times; however, I recognized the danger and took evasive action immediately--same whenever I sensed a man was attracted to me or made advances to me. The seed never had a chance to sprout.<p>The funny thing is that my 1st H met my needs better than current H ever has, but I was attracted to other men in that M, but not in this one--not sure why that is (maybe linked to my second theory below). I think one reason may be that very early on in this M, when it was painfully evident that H was not going to meet my needs, I suddenly found myself having empathy for my 1st H and having more understanding for his A because I felt like I must be feeling how he did when I wasn't meeting his needs. (I first read HNHN during that divorce.)<p>At that time, however, despite my identifying more with my ex-H's feelings, when I realized I was vulnerable to an A, I processed it this way: If I can't count on the person who promised to love, honor and cherish me to meet my needs, then why on earth would I think a stranger preying upon a vulnerable married woman would be the answer? It just made no sense, so I didn't even get to the point of being attracted to anyone even in my fantasies like I had in the 1st M.<p>My second theory has to do with differentiation. A good source to learn about this is Schnarch (The Sexual Crucible, Passionate Marriage). I am more differentiated than either of my WHs. In other words, I have a stronger identity independent of any of my significant relationships, family of origin especially. I know better who I am and can define myself separately from my relationships. My H is still very enmeshed in his family of origin.<p>I think someone who has a very strong sense of self is less likely to "fall" into an A if it violates their core values. In trying to process his A, my H has asked, "Who am I?", and he expresses his identity crisis. I already know who I am, whether married, single, in a unsatisfying M, in a need-meeting M, whatever.<p>I think those are the things that factor in at that moment of decision. And I agree with SNL in that in the end it has little to do with the BS. I know that early in the seed-planting process I felt like my H deserved to lose me that way because of the way he was treating me (I had no doubt as to why his previous wives had strayed!). So that was not a roadblock. The moment of decision came when I had to decide who *I* was regardless of who my H was or wasn't to me. It was my definition of myself that ultimately defined my actions.<p>This is echoed in Nyneve's comment that she "can barely comprehend that [she] was that person". Similarly, my WS describes it as being like an out-of-body experience, like he was watching someone else do it. On some level they realize they are not who they thought they were. I submit this is because the sense of self is underdeveloped. They have fuzzy boundaries.<p>So, that's my take on it for what it's worth.<p>Conqueror

Conquerer, <p>What you say is so very perceptive. I don't remember seeing this concept expressed as well before. <p>_______________________________________________
I think someone who has a very strong sense of self is less likely to "fall" into an A if it violates their core values. In trying to process his A, my H has asked, "Who am I?", and he expresses his identity crisis. I already know who I am, whether married, single, in a unsatisfying M, in a need-meeting M, whatever.
_______________________________________________<p>Interestingly, I wrote my WDIL soon after d-day that I didn't know who she was anymore. She replied that she didn't know who she was either.<p>Thanks for your insight. Estes

Yes, Estes, I agree...that is a interesting concept. I wonder how many of us BS's are pretty strong people with a good sense of how and what we are....married to people who lack a strong sense of self. It would explain why they respond so readily to the manipulations of the OP. They are looking for something to identify with...something that makes them believe in themselves again...so they find the "soulmate" the perfect person (really just a reflection of themselves)to identify with...and they play off of each other...each feeding into the illusion until one day it all falls apart...like illusions will.<p>If you watch them you can see it...they will start to dress like the OP wants them to...talk like they want them to...go and do things that the OP does. <p>My only thought on this is that there is no way to find yourself in someone else...eventually they will learn this...just hope it's not too later for them.<p>Faye

Just a little comment here. I am the WS in an EA. This is going to sound cold, but it is something I feel like I need to say. <p>If my wife would have met my needs I doubt very much that I would have ever been involved in a EA!!!!!<p>I have begged and pleaded with my wife to meet my needs over the last several years and she simply chooses to not do so! And before you ask, yes I have been trying to learn what her needs are and try to meet them.<p>I realize that many of you didn't know your spouses needs were not being met and I truly feel sorry for you. But let me ask this question. How many of your spouses have begged and pleaded with you to meet their needs and you have chosen to not meet their needs?<p>Yes I realize that an affair is a choice and it is wrong, but would that choice have been made if needs were being met?

WantLove:<p>An affair is never the answer...that is black and white.<p>Sure there are BS who fail to meet the ENs of WS...but the picture is usually not as black and white as the WS would make it sound. And even if it is...an affair is never the answer...there are other options...including separation...counseling...and if all else fails...divorce. At least divorce is an honest respectful way to end a marriage...an affair is not. <p>Both parties in a relationship need to have honesty and openness to resolve or rebuild a marriage...and respect for the years that you have had together. In my eyes an affair is the ultimate in disrespect...for each of the parties has given up something to be in this marriage and has contributed to maintaining it...and an affair says "all this had no meaning...it had no value to me"...I can easily give it up...trash it..because I didn't get my needs met. Well, there are needs on both sides...and failure to meet one need may result in another not being met...so we need to evaluate ourselves and our shortcomings and not just lay the blame on the other S....that's the easy way out.<p>Faye

Hi WantLove,<p>Good to have a WS's perspective.<p>Question for you: Why didn't you leave, if it was so unbearable with regards to none of your needs being met, before you had an affair? <p>I mean no disrespect, yet it is a legitimate question, don't you think?<p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>Question for you: Why didn't you leave, if it was so unbearable with regards to none of your needs being met, before you had an affair? <p>I mean no disrespect, yet it is a legitimate question, don't you think?<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>First of all thanks for not flaming me. I have been reading and posting on the forum for about a month now and correct me if I am wrong but most of the people posting seem to be the BS, so I thought some of you would want the perspective of the WS. Yes I realize that the EA was wrong and I will admit that I felt terrible while it was going on. I have felt somewhat better now that it has ended. As you can tell from the tone of my post I am very frustrated with my marriage and some of that frustration probably came thru in my post.<p>Now to your question: I guess I never left because of many reasons. First of all I will admit that I am afraid of the unknown, I will be honest and say that I wanted a sure thing with OW in EA. I now know that wouldn&#8217;t have worked. I have thought about leaving for several years but I just can&#8217;t seem to do it. I have the typical excuses. I don&#8217;t want to hurt my kids or even my wife. I don&#8217;t like the idea of the financial burdens. Etc. I guess the biggest thing is: Have I done everything I can to save my marriage? The answer is an honest no. My current goal is to Plan A my wife for a few months and then evaluate what I am going to do next. How is that for a switch the WS doing the Plan A? I know I am boosting, but O, well.<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Want Love ]</p>

WantLove,<p>Have you told your W how very serious this is, so serious that you allowed yourself to get involved with someone else?<p>Have you told her that you are thinking of leaving if things don't improve and how very very unhappy you are?<p>Have you told her that you think you still love her and want to try everything possible before you decide it's over?<p>If my H would have told me these things, believe me GOD, I would have sat up and took notice. I would have bent over backwards, moved heaven and earth to help fix what was wrong. <p>She deserves to be told these things because it's her marriage too. And that marriage is in BIG trouble.<p>Jo<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Right on, buffy:<p>As buffy said, this is black and white.
There is never, ever an excuse or moral justification for an affair. There may be reasons, but never an excuse. There are plenty of us here whose needs are not all being met by our spouse, but we chose ways to deal with the situation that do not rely on deceit and betrayal.<p>If a person's spouse is disrespectful and uncaring enough to ignore clearly stated needs and that person is convinced that the spouse will never change, the honorable action would be divorce. THEN find someone else to meet those EN. It is so incredibly disrespectful and dishonest and dishonorable to do that(A)to someone to whom you have promised an exclusive relationship (even if that relationship has broken down). An A is the untimate betrayal for whatever reason the WS chooses to participate. Just because the BS was negligent or disrespectful does not justify someone's decision to be unfaithful. Once again, if things are hopeless in spite of your best efforts, divorce FIRST.<p>Thankfully, God forgives us who have made mistakes and are truly repentent. And we all make mistakes. Most WS are not evil people. IMHO, they are people who do not have the strength of self to make correct choices. They know right and wrong and choose to do wrong because they are not strong enough to do differently. To paraphrase Dr. Harley, adulterers are people who have failed to protect themselves from their own weakness. I'm sorry WS, if that offends, but it is true. As I have said before in this forum, reasonable dissatisfaction in one's marriage does not justify adultery.<p>We here at MB understand the awful effects of betrayal on the BS, but I wonder if the ultimate betrayal by a WS is of him/herself.<p>Estes<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

One other thing, WantLove.<p>I'm sorry for your pain. I see it in your words.<p>You're a good man for Plan A'ing your wife like this. I wish my H would have Plan A'd me.<p>It's a damn good thing you came here, I believe you have the best chance there is by using the Harley's principals. Please don't give up.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Want Love,<p>I think you may find that many BSs here have been in exactly the same situation, their spouse not meeting their needs for years despite consistent and repeated requests (until you feel you are just beating your head against a brick wall endlessly and finally give up).<p>Those of us in this category found non-A ways to meet those unmet needs or did without. For instance, a couple of my high-ranking needs are Affection and Admiration. For many years I have been able to substitute my children's affection and admiration for the lack from my Hs. My need for Conversation is met through appropriate friendships and with family.<p>I still think a strong sense of self makes us less vulnerable to an A. I think I have more tools in my toolchest than my H (he agrees with this). I find ways to help myself when I need help. I recognize that I have needs and I try to find constructive ways to meet them BEFORE it reaches critical mass.<p>My H tends to look for his reflection in those around him to define who he is. A simpler way to say it is he looks outside himself, and I look inside myself.<p>Some of this is based upon what I saw in my two WSs and their explanations for how they were feeling and why they did what they did. The feelings they describe I have empathy with because I felt the exact same way, so why didn't I go down the same path and have As myself? I had the same circumstances, feeling unloved, unwanted, with unmet needs, opportunity available, all the same contributing factors, but I chose a different path.<p>I think my life experience to this point has enabled and even required me to establish and maintain more solid boundaries, so I have a better sense of where I end and another begins.<p>For instance if my H treats me like dirt, I may feel drawn to a man who treats me like something special; however, deep down I already know I am special so there is not a true hole there for another man to fill. I feel that I am special whether my H treats me that way or not. If my sense of self-worth were not intact, it would be like a vacuum that would easily suck the other man in.<p>Conqueror

I think I may have had a lightbulb moment about this--maybe it also has to do with self-sufficiency?<p>For example, my current #1 EN is Honesty and Openness. I have expressed this to H numerous times, but I still keep discovering deception, so it is clear he is not going to meet this need for me anytime soon and perhaps never. What am I doing about it? I'm reading books like Never Be Lied To Again. I am doing my best to acquire skills to detect deception and therefore meet my own need.<p>I do not depend on H to meet my needs, so I think that is another piece to the puzzle.<p>And connected to this, in a weird way I think it can also be a contributing factor sometimes to a WS's A. During the dark time before H's A, there were times when I made a very distinct deliberate decision to meet my unmet-by-H needs rather than meet his needs when they were in conflict with each other because at that time my needs were so huge that I couldn't do both. My H calls that selfishness; it felt like survival to me.<p>I knew the risk I was taking (had gone into this M having read and taken to heart HNHN), but I prayed that H was strong enough to take care of himself while I recovered. Turns out he wasn't. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Conqueror<p>[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

All I can say is the same thing I said in a different thread...the person to blame for my being the WS is....me! Not my H, not the OP, not even the OPW who literally asked us to have an affair...it was me.<p>I'm grown, intelligent, know right from wrong and did it anyway. <p>Did the OP meet a need that my H didn't? Sure. But I am the one who could have brought it all to a screeching halt before I betrayed my H and our vows. I just don't understand adults who won't take responsibility for their actions.

Resilient, <p>You asked me a few questions so I thought I would try to answer them. I am short on time so they will have to be short, but I will try to answer them:<p> Have you told your W how very serious this is, so serious that you allowed yourself to get involved with someone else? <p>Yes I told my wife how serious this is. May of this year I sat down with her and explained how frustrated I was in our marriage and that we both needed to make some changes to make our marriage better or we had do end it. <p>No, I have not told my wife how emotionally involved I was in my lopsided EA. She was aware that I was becoming too close to OW and demanded no contact. <p>Last spring a friend of mine told me about the book His Needs - Her Needs. I read it and really liked it. I took the book home after I read it and asked my wife to read it with me. It was about that time that I sat down with my wife and told her how frustrated I was in our marriage. I told her what each one of my needs were. I asked her to read the book HNHN she read part of the book. When she read part of the chapter on Attractive spouse she literally threw it on the floor and told me it was one of the most selfish and self centered things she had ever read. She has refused to read the book or fill out the emotional needs questionnaire. She did however give me a list of her needs. I have been trying harder to meet her needs. The thing that is so very frustrating is that she doesn&#8217;t seem to be trying very hard to meet my needs.<p>I have also been going to counseling. I asked my wife to join me and she refused. <p> Have you told her that you are thinking of leaving if things don't improve and how very very unhappy you are? <p>As mentioned above, yes I told her in May that I thought we needed to end our marriage if things didn&#8217;t improve.<p> Have you told her that you think you still love her and want to try everything possible before you decide it's over? <p>Yes, I have told her that I love her and want to do everything possible to save our marriage.<p>I will admit that my efforts in Plan A have not been very consistent but I have tried. I decided at the beginning of November to increase my efforts for at least 90 days and see what happens. One thing that is so very frustrating is my wife has a real problem with anger to the point that I am starting to think it is emotional abuse. Last Friday she got very upset at me. I told her at that time that I was very frustrated with her anger and her lack of meeting my needs. I remained calm during our &#8220;discussion&#8221; but still she became even more mad and upset that I was honest with her about my feelings regarding her anger and her not meeting my needs.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>One other thing, WantLove.<p>I'm sorry for your pain. I see it in your words.<p>You're a good man for Plan A'ing your wife like this. I wish my H would have Plan A'd me.<p>It's a damn good thing you came here, I believe you have the best chance there is by using the Harley's principals. Please don't give up.<p>Love,
Jo<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you!!!!!!<p>To all the others, thanks for your concern and trying to help me see the light! Yes I know that the EA was a bad choice and I am trying to do the right things.

WantLove,<p>Why is your wife so angry w/you? I'm starting to think there's something else going on here. I'm gonna throw a couple ideas out there and see what you think ....<p>

• Is it at all possible your W is also having an A?
• Or could your W be going thru menopause?
• Or has your W always been this easily angered?

<p>I don't mean to alarm you, just your situation seems so backwards, with you being the WS having the A and Plan A'ing your W, and with her being angry with you. What gives with the anger?<p>Jo

Resilient,<p> Is it at all possible your W is also having an A? <p>No, I don&#8217;t believe so.<p> Or could your W be going thru menopause? <p>I guess it is possible. She is 43, but I don&#8217;t think this is the problem.<p> Or has your W always been this easily angered? <p>Yes, she has always had a very short fuse. This is a problem that she has had for several years. It is very frustrating. Other people can see it but she can&#8217;t. I will have to admit that she knows she gets angry but most of the time she feels justified. &#8220;If so and so hadn&#8217;t done such and such then I wouldn&#8217;t be angry.&#8221;<p>She is very angry at me for &#8220;constantly&#8221; reminding her of my unmet needs.<p>It seems that she is always mad at somebody. She is mad at the neighborhood kids and their parents because of door bell ditching and mad at the parents for not &#8220;controlling&#8221; their children. It has come to the point of her telling me that she wishes we could move. She did the same thing where we previously lived 10 years ago. For one reason or another she was mad at most of the neighbors.<p>She is often mad at me for something I have done or not done. <p>When she gets mad she will hold a grudge for days, weeks, months and even years. She has been upset at my mother for 4 years because of something that happened on a trip that we went on together. <p>At the suggestion of my counselor I started charting my feelings about my relationship with my wife. I noticed an interesting pattern. All of the low days are days she was angry about one thing or another. I also noticed that she can&#8217;t go more than about 8 days without finding something to get upset at. For the month of October there were 10 days that she was upset about something. So far in November there has been 6 days. Most days are pretty blah, with the exception of a nice day once in in awhile.<p>I have a tendency to walk around on egg shells to not upset her. When I am upset about something and she notices and asks me what is wrong I have a tendency to tell her &#8220;nothing&#8221; because I know that as soon as I try to discuss with her my feelings she becomes very defensive and many times angry. It is just easier to hold it inside than to let it out. I also find that the things she gets upset about, most people wouldn&#8217;t get upset about, but of course in her mind she is very justified.<p>She very seldom will apologize or admit that she is wrong. <p>She has a very difficult time seeing mine or anybody&#8217;s point of view. Maybe I am being judgmental but I have a tendency to think that most things that she gets upset about most other people wouldn't get so upset about.<p>Any discussion of differences is viewed as an argument, even if I remain calm in trying to give her my point of view. This is more so in trying to discuss &#8220;sore spots&#8221; in our marriage.

Anyway yes she can be a very toxic person sometimes. It is so very frustrating. I used to think that I must be doing something wrong but I am starting to see that she has a real problem with anger.<p>As I mentioned before I have been trying to Plan A her. I have learned that her &#8220;Love Languages&#8221; are more Visual and Verbal. I have been trying to do more acts of service for her and to tell her I love her more and I appreciate her more. I think this has helped some. <p>I have talked to my church leader about her anger and he is at a lose of what to do. She refuses to go to counseling. In fact she knew that I talked to my church leader and wanted to know what we talked about. I told her that I told him that I was very frustrated about her anger and her not trying very hard (at least in my mind) to meet my needs. She then got even more angry.<p>I am a getting real tired of taking the blame for her anger. I know I haven&#8217;t always done everything correctly in the past but I am trying.<p>I am going to buy the book &#8220;How to Hug a Porcupine: Dealing With Toxic and Difficult to Love Personalities&#8221; by Dr. John Lewis Lund. Any other suggestions on how to deal with this problem?<p>[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Want Love ]</p>