I was just having a conversation over the weekend with a girlfriend of mine on this very subject. She is about 6 years older than me and our lives have run a similar course. She had a long term relationship with a married man, but is now married and pregnant with her second child. <p>She was sort of sitting me down to have a "big sister" kind of talk about my relationships past and present. She knows the intimate details of my relationship with MM as well as the details of my current boyfriend.<p>Ultimately, what she said to me [and I thought this was very interesting] is that it comes down to ego for me. MM has all of the externals that I want. I was raised to believe [and still believe] that externals are very, very important. However, I am waking up to the value of deeper things - it remains a process.<p>There is NO question that my ego is under great assault and as such, this is a trying time. I fully understand that there are greater things than "stuff" but I LOVE stuff!<p>Several years ago [2] I made a financial investment. Without giving too many details, I had to make the choice over what would look good and what would be best for me in the long run. For some people this would be an easy choice. For me it was not. It was agonizing. Ultimately I chose a deal that looked crappy but felt good over one that looked fabulous and would only feel good short term. I took a LOT of guff for my choice, but I'm retiring in the spring on the money that I made. <p>There is no question [for me] that my love for MM was a hot passionate flame. Our relationship looked fabulous but on a feelings level was a giant roller coaster. My current relationship is more like a low, slow burn. We simmer, if you will.<p>Realistically, I get the value of the simmer, but greatly miss the flame. Thank God I have expereince in other relms of my life of taking the less exciting option. But DANG!<p>I have great trouble seeing my past with MM as anything bad. It was a great adventure. I have come to understand the destruction of that adventure but...<p>My girlfriend say of her past with her xMM [He's now divorced and one of her best friends] "I do not regret the past, nor do I wish to shut the door on it. However, I can now see it for what it was. A great fantasy."<p>How this will look to me in 10 years, I guess it's still a "we'll see" deal.

Gottruth?<p>I hope that you are still reading over here. <p>A word of advice from an xOW to the mother of a current OW. Just love her. Don't judge her. Let her know how you feel and then completely let it go. These kinds of relationships are hard enough. Guilt and shame will only draw her closer to him and further from you and her family. <p>God Bless.

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

BinThere,
I happen to agree with most of what you have said. For me at this time there are still more questions than answers. I am, however, finding my way.<p>This weekend, my girlfriend pointed out that now the stakes are much higher. In times past i'd have these little adventures and figure things out for myself. That was fine when it was just me. Now I have a vulnerable little soul to care for.<p>I had a long talk last night with my boyfriend. He says that he loves me and is thinking long term. He is a good person and would make a good father. He has a lot of learning to do, but is a willing students. I recognize how much my son craves a father and it breaks my heart. It feels like such a short sighted decision to choose to have this baby. I crave partnership but NOT marriage. I know that i'm not ready for that level of compromise. I like my boyfriend and I like my life just the way it is. Just the way it is cheats me child though.<p>I believe strongly in following a spiritual path. For the most part though, there are VERY FEW Christians that I have met that are the kinds of people that i'd want to be or associate with. Though there are some Unitarian Churches that I have found interesting. THat too remains a journey.

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Thanks BinThere

I just read what you wrote to my best friend. Based on your description she's ending her engagement.

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Katie,<p>I hope you really do listen to BinThere. Don't even think about marrying if you don't feel it is good for you. Not that marriage is that tough, frankly if you can communicate, are willing to share, and enjoy life and having another human life in your life, marriage is fun and fullfilling.<p>With regards to religion, I have many thoughts and my fingers cannot type fast enough to relay them all to you. But I will tell you this, go to a church, any church, and take your son. If the sermons don't get you thinking and seeing things in deeper and different ways, go to another church. Again take your son.<p>Ask your son if he enjoys Sunday school? If he tells you he enjoys a certain one, go there. I think what you may have to do is do what my W and I have done. We look for a church that has two major attributes: 1. A good youth program and 2. A minister that makes us think: not guilty, not pious, just think.<p>You don't have to worry about your son becoming brainwashed [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , he will be a teenager soon enough and he will question everything anyway. But you do want him comfortable and able to go to a church when he grows up and needs it. You want him to have choices and know enough to make them. That is why I strongly recommend that you expose him to church and formal religion. I don't care which denomination.<p>As for yourself, realize that Christians and the Church are somewhat different things. The former are people who will tell you what "they" believe and in many cases how they lead their lives. The exceptions are often splashed across the papers. The latter is where you go to find yourself and what his Holy to you.<p>Don't confuse the two. Many people use the church as social outlet. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it is a good choice. But, you don't have to do that. You can use it to find out what you need to find out in life. <p>It is my opinion that as much as we do gather together to worship, the search for religion is a solitary pursuit. <p>Finally, you will find as your life goes on, that some of the most deeply religious people are not the people you expect or realize. They will just be there when they are needed. Pay attention Katie, we are all aware of the bad in the world but there is a lot of good out there as well.<p>Your search seems to be just beginning. Do it carefully but with confidence that when you find something or someone that is really right you will know it. Don't get married just for your son. Don't avoid religion because the people turn you off. Enjoy the trip Katie and learn.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL,
You're gonna make me cry. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thank you.<p>BTDT,
Yes it's true. She gave the ring back. She has come to realize that the only reason that she was marring this guy was becasue she wanted to have a baby. She may be moving back to NY and in with me! God help us all!

Hey Katie Scarlett...hope you are doing well...<p>I heard something on the radio that made me think of you...occasionally I listen to "Christian" stations...sometimes there is a evangelist that I like...sometimes I just like to listen to the music...anyway...had it on the other morning...<p>...the message was about a guy who was ordering lunch but ordered only pickles because the fast food place always got his order wrong...he quit ordering what he liked or quit going to a restaurant 'cause sometimes what he got was wrong or not to his liking...<p>...kinda like people who don't go to church 'cause they don't like the message or because some people rub them the wrong way...<p>I LOVE WHAT JL wrote to you...RELIGION IS SOOOO MAN-MADE...Faith comes from God. Just like JL we have picked a church where we hear a good message and their is a good Youth program. Our kids like to go...sometimes you get lucky and the church fits and you get involved...but problems inevitably happen...because church involves people and people are human and we sin...gotta overlook the sin and the sinner and look to God...what does God want you to do...what does God want from your life????<p>As I posted to someone else...listen to the quiet of your heart...the answers are there.

TA,
My heart tells me to seek God where he may be found. I have found him in all kinds of places (most of them weren't churches). I have felt his presence most profoundly while circling with a women's spirituality group in my area. NOT CHRISTIANS. I think that church comes into play when you are seeking like minded people. With a little luck i'll find a place where God dwells and other folks will be there too.<p>To me going to church after church is kind of like the defination of insanity.<p>The defination of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.<p>I like the idea of a youth program for my son though. That's cool!

I would agree...if you were going to the same church over and over....<p>....but different churches....is different...<p>Hey...I AM not a big lover of church...ONE of the cracks in the marriage was over this point...<p>...but ya know what? THAT'S THE FIRST PLACE I WANTED TO GO WHEN THIS ALL HAPPENED...<p>Sure...you can find God EVERYWHERE...but you also need to LEARN about Him...<p>I prefer to go where the Paster/Preacher teaches as well as preaches...and I am also one of those kind of people who likes to learn on their own...funny thing, though...as a teacher I have discovered that the best learning takes place among people...when you can bounce your ideas off one another...<p>To my way of thinking...you are painting most Christians and most churches with the same brush...kinda like judging a book by its cover...until you actually EXPERIENCE a church...you really don't know what it is all about...<p>Finally...you out of something what you put into it. The churches in which I have been the most involved...that's where I have learned the most...what is important is NOT what other people do or how other people act...but that you yourself act as Jesus would...<p>I'm not a fan of the WWJD stuff that seems to be ubiquitous...but...that's exactly what separates a 'cultural' Christian from a 'biblical' Christian...a true Christian walks the walk and talks the talk...how can I expect from others what I don't do myself? And it is NOT mine to judge....

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong>
Not to despair tho, I'm living proof that you can have the most utterly shameful background and still raise kids with godly values. I take no credit for it either.<p>
TA--thanks so much for this thread. BUT, it is possible to raise strong kids in weak situations. With God, all things are possible! When we focus on God's matchless power, our circumstances don't seem so bleak.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Pardon me, but in a way i'm laughing at you BinThere. Reading this you would have thought that I was in the worse situation in the world. For me, single parenthood is SO not the end of the world! I do not now, nor have I ever thought of my situation as "utterly shamful, impossible or bleak." <p>I assume that you didn't mean to sound patronizing, but good grief!