Jacky,<p>I hope I didn't overreact to your (possible) overreaction. I truely have found every one on SM11's posts to be very annoying.<p>-AD

Well it's me-<p>I'm back and happy. The quagmire that was once my marriage is now over. I've never been happier. Talk about cleansing. I say- choose to be happy. That's what I did. I have to say about the old GF- before I met my wife and even during my marriage, there was never a day that went by that I did not think of her. I say it's destiny. I feel about this woman ways I never felt about anyone. I FEEL GOOD!!!!!

What an idiot. Not a damn word anyone had to say meant a thing to you. Well go ahead. I am a firm believer in what goes around comes around. One day you will be back here, or somewhere like here, crying to everyone about how the LOVE of your life turned around and shoved it back up your A$$.<p> I hope that when that day comes you will remember what you are choosing to do to your wife. <p>jd<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</p>

Well Art,<p>You have just won the Scarlet OP/WS award. You can proudly wear it (despite what others may think of you) and show that you won this award without any regard for family or morals. <p>Be 'happy' in the fog and don't forget to NOT get married since you could then become the BS one day. Then you will really be 'happy'. Make sure you don't use honesty and trust as a basis for a lasting relationship because that is not what made this 'loving' A into a unhappy D. <p>Make sure you don't meet someone you liked before this OW and want that one also. Maybe you will one day remember why you dropped this OW for your former W. Hopefully that next time you won't forget quite as easily as you did this time. Of course we could be wrong. Maybe you were in a stupor of sorts when you decided to marry your previous W or maybe you were forced as 'gunshot'. <p>Whatever the reason make sure that you continue your relationship with this OW using all the opposite techniques that you used with your previous W because you really want this relationship with your OW not to work. <p>If you want loyalty, get a dog. They won't ask you for anything and you can always send them to the pound when you are done with them. <p>Make sure that you set it up that all your assets will be in the hands of someone who has no scruples. That way when you are taken to the cleaners your pockets will already be empty and it will be just a formality of loosing your assets. <p>Don't live in a state that acknowledges common-law marriages because you could be taken to the cleaners before your time. <p>Ahhh yes, if you hvae property or children make sure you leave them all devasted because you are now 'happy'. Your 'happiness' is absolutely more important than the lives of those you choose to wreck. You will live with the 'happy' memory of the pain and torment of the broken family and D for the rest of your life. When you are old and alone (because what's the use of taking care of an old man who is of no more use to a greedy OW), then you will remember the value of a family but well, you can always have those 'happy' memories to fix your bedpan and take you to the doctor. Oh paying your bills? Not a problem, become a ward of the state because you have no family remember that 'happy' choice of being with an OW who will by this time have left you because she needs someone to care for her and you just don't cut it anymore. <p>Yes, Art......go be 'happy', no time to cry because one day you might......wake up all alone.<p>L.

RE: The quagmire that was once my marriage is now over.<p>Well Art. Get used to the idea of reliving the "quagmire that was once" your marriage. The chances are that you will relive it with your OW or any other woman you are with for any extended period of time. Why? Because you haven't a clue as to how to make a marriage or relationship work. <p>What you have yet to realize is that you are at least 50% responsible for the mess your marriage is in. YOU let the marriage sink into that quagmire. You will do it with every relationship you have. Why do I say that? Because you were handed a learning experience that could have enriched your life beyond your wildest dreams. Instead of taking that gift, you ran down the easiest path.<p>When you married your wife, you made her your best friend in front of family, friends and the world. This is not how best friends treat each other.<p>Since you are not intent on saving your marriage, MB is not the place for you. We will not help you celebrate your choice. But, if you would please show your wife this web site, we will be more then happy to give her the support she needs at this time.<p>Z

Art,<p>I realize that there are some marriages that will never make it because one or both spouses are abusive, etc. In these cases I would never encourage a person to stay and put up with the abuse. <p>But this does not seem to be the case with your marriage. If anything, the way you speak of your wife make you sound like an abusive person... at least emotionally abusive if nothing else.<p>If you had tried your hardest to make your marriage work using all the tools avaiable to you here at MB and your marriage did not come around, then no one could fault you for leaving. If you were leaving without the influence of the OW, then it would seem much more honorable. But you are dumping your wife for another woman. <p>Do you know that only about 3% of all people end up long term with the person they leave their spouse for? The statisic are not with you my dear man. You are hooking up with a women whose morals do not include honesty, loyalty and all the other good things that hold a realtionship together. Instead she is motivated mostly by selfish needs. She will more then likely leave you as soon as she finds someone who tickles her fancy more then you do. One dynamic that strikes me here is that you dumped her a long time ago for your current wife. What sweet revenge it will be for her to steal you from your wife and then dump you. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] In this way she will have revenge on both you and your wife. Then she will move on to someone more suited to fit here selfish needs.<p>Have fun while you can because I doubt it will last long. I now that there is a very small chance that you will form a life-long, happy relatlionship with your OW. But I'm betting on the side of statistics. I doubt I'll ever "see" you again so I'll say it today "I told you so."<p>Another thougth that crossed my mind. Perhaps you are doing your wife a great favor by setting her free so she can find a man who has the qualities it takes to make a life long commitment. Good for you. It's a kind thing you are doing for her, instead of sneaking behind her back any longer and torturning her with your affair. <p>How on earth do you come to this place of healing and marriage building and proclaim your excitement and happyness for tearing your wife's life and heart apart? What makes you think that it is the thing to do here? Usually, when we do not agree with a WS or OP, we are accused of being angry and bitter people. One thing we have all learned here is to let go of the hurt, anger and bitterness. These are distructive forces that only rot a person from inside. I am very happily married to a man with whom I share a passionate love. I post here to help others as it has been a place of healing for my H and I. The response you are getting here are from people who can see hurtful behavior very clearly. We are not shy about voicing our reaction and feels about them.<p>Sometimes I wish that ever OP and WS can live through the experience of being a BS. It seems that some people just have to touch the hot stove to believe it will burn them...... shaking my head... <p>Z

Don't get too worked up on him. I'm pretty sure he is a not a 'real' poster.

Kam,<p>What makes you think he is not a real poster?<p>Just curious?<p>Z

*shudder* Soulmate11 sounds like my ex's flaky OW, eerily so. Hey Meg! Is that you? If so enjoy him while you can sweetie, his mood swings and depression should be kicking in any time now.

Nduli,<p>How are you? Long time no chat!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So your X's OW is into the smelly stuff too? Oh boy, I thought I was the only one blessed with an OW with no sense of smell...... LOL!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Not sure if Art or Soulmate11 is coming back. If marriage was never their cup of tea, then maybe it is for the best. <p>L.

Hiya Orchid, it has been a long time. In fact it's been nearly a year now since I first started posting here. <p> Erf, where to start. The divorce is a done deal and it's been a very long and arduous road to get from there to here. The ex basically went out of his way to break me and succeeded. Took all the moeny, threw away my posessions when I went to my mother's to get some support through this. Got rid of my two cats and left me holding 30,000 of -his- debt(never, never, never transfer someone else's cc debt to yourself) By the end of it I was so put through the wringer it's a good thing that I was three states away or I would've brained him.
In any case, he's off in la-la land with the precious OW and yes SM11 sounds so much like her it gives me the willies. Same cutesy-poo tone and fog brained talk about soulmates. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I'm doing okay. Tired from working three jobs to get myself back on my feet and a lot more wary about life in general but surviving which is really all I can ask for right now.
How're you faring these days?

Actually I am the real poster. You all have no idea of how unstable my wife was. She has made my life aliving hell for nearly two years. Don't hate me beacause I didn't choose to waste 20 years trying to fix something that was irrepairable. Just reading your comments about revenge et al just shows how bitter you all really are. Truth-I'm 30 years old and I feel like I've been born again. My wife is working in Vancouver at a job she likes and I'm happy for her. We are both getting on with our lives.<p>Life is good.

Hello Art,<p>I don't understand something about your story. I hope you can help me out.<p>You said in the last two years your wife had become unstable, and you two have been together for 8 years (married for 4).<p>So Art, if you were so unhappy, and so very sure in the last two years that you no longer wanted to be married, why did you wait until you met this old time GF again to leave your marriage and wife?<p>Art ... I have a theory .... please bear with me while I explain it for you. My theory is all based on what you have written.<p>Art wrote this:
"In the last two years my wife has become unstable in her work and has not been working in over a year. At her last job, she lost her temper and got herself fired. I'm not a rich person and need some help paying our bills." <p>So things got bad for two years after 8 years together, 4 of those years married ... right Art?<p>Art wrote this:
"Recently I also met up with an ex-girlfriend. I've done this before and nothing has ever happenned and it was just friends talking about old times."<p>Now Art, I would guess that you didn't have any feelings for that old GF at that time, which was probably during the first 6 years of your relationship/marriage, because your wife was meeting your needs. Things were good in your marriage and you LOVED your wife because she was meeting your needs, that's why you had ZERO, NADA, NOTHING attraction or feelings for old GF at that time. <p>Art wrote this:
"But this time something inside me snapped. I had the same feeling I had 11 years ago when she and I went out. She feels the same. Seeing her was like everything falling into place. She has a beautiful little daughter (not mine- she and her ex-husband's). It was like I fell in love all over again."<p>Well DUH! Art .... your needs weren't being met by your wife (who you do love) the last two years and that's why you think you have fallen in-love with old GF. <p>Do you see the writing on the wall, Art?<p>This old GF isn't your SOUL MATE, or FATE or A MIRACULOUS MEANT TO BE RE-MEETING, because if it was, you would have felt it the other times (Art wrote this: "I've done this before and nothing has ever happenned") ..... but you didn't feel it because your wife was meeting your needs.<p>See how this NEEDS thing works, Art?<p>Any light bulb activity on your end yet?<p>Jo<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Art, I don't know you but am praying for you and hope you are who you say you are and aren't wasting anyone's precious time or prayers pretending. <p>I am a huge Seinfeld fan and know who Art Vandelay is. Any Seinfeld fan does. ART VANDELAY is the MADE UP name that George used to lie about who he was and impress a gal and pretend to be an architect b/c his own life was well, not too great at the time. Seinfeld fans here can validate this too. In fact, the name Art Vandelay would come up whenever George needed a LIE to get out of something sticky. Hmmm.<p>I do hope that you listen Art to the advice given you. MB is for those interested in restoring and preserving their marriages. This OW and your feeling is temporary. Like a high or something. Does sound like your W has good job now (wasn't that a LB to you before?) All I'm saying is look for the good left and before you turn your back and run into the OW's arms, think, pray. I'll not post again, just pray you are who you are and that you would look to a higher power for what you should really do. The answer is clear, my man and is found in the ten commandments. God gave them to us not to keep us from having fun, but to not mess up our lives here. Most surveys taken (cannot cite source but counselor told me last week and I forgot) show that around 75% of those divorced say that they wished they had done something to save M or wished they were back together again after all was said and done. Hindsight is always 20/20. Your glasses are fogged. Clean them off and look inward again...

Actually I chose Art Vandelay because I love Seinfeld and there is no better alias that that. No- I don't work in latex nor am I an importer/exporter. <p>Here's a twist- maybe getting out of this marriage was good for me and that I will seek to do better the second time around.<p>What have I learned from my first marriage:<p>1.) Don't marry because you feel sorry for your potential spouse.<p>2.) Don't marry because you feel you cannot do better.<p>3.) Don't marry when you know you aren't emotionally mature (I admit it) yet.<p>4.) Don't marry when you don't know what youy want out of a spouse.<p>5.) Don't marry someone who is mentally ill.<p>Sorry, but them's the facts for me. Yes PRAY for me for I am headed for eeternal damnation. I can feel the horns growing out of my head already. Another fact is that I love my wife as a human being and would support her in any way except being a life partner. I can be her friend and anything else. Maybe there is hope for us- but I know she has to mature. Maybe separation will do us both good. <p>I've been thinking about the OW- and as each day goes by she becomes more of a friend and nothing else. I am realizing that I am on the rebound and have a fear of being alone. I admit that. When you are with some one for 8 years, going solo is not easy. I realize that from other relationship research that I've done, that I have been very very needy. A real wet blanket so to speak. I feel that there are mutual feelings between us- but I have to heal and figure out what I want first before I move romantically in any direction- whether that is to heal my marriage or to move on.<p>You mentioned hurt that I've caused- the hurt that I feel most is that that I've caused my in-laws. They treated me like their own son and I feel I've betrayed them so much.<p>So what am I going to do? Seek out a support group locally. I figure ther are people who have done and are going through what I'm going through right now.<p>Wish me luck. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] sshorne@telus.net

Art,<p>There are a few things that your are not getting about this MB forum.<p>The first is that this is a marriage building forum? hence its name. It is not a forum for support people in leaving their marriages. Dr. Harley provides this forum free to people who want to learn to use the MB principles to build their marriage. Any topic other then marriage building the MB way is not welcome here. This is not a public forum.<p>Perhaps you can find the support you are looking for in the Divorced forum here.<p>People here in the infidelity forum are hurting. In case you have not figured it out yet, infidelity is one of the worse things that can happen to a person. Your thread and posts are rubbing salt in the wounds of people who are already terribly wounded. <p>I've spent a lot of time on this forum and know many of the people here as well as I can in this type of setting. These are not mean or bitter people. They are seeking to heal, recover their marriages and become better people using the MB concepts. <p>Don't come here asking questions and support and then attack those who take their time to respond to you. It's like a hungry person asking for a food hand out and then complaining that the food was not good for them. If you don't like the support and responses you get here, then go somewhere else where people will tell you what you want to hear. The gloryb.com forum comes to mind. It's an online support group for WS's and OP's.<p>If you want to stay here on MB. Please read the MB material and start learning what this site is about and start living the MB principles. Otherwise you are wasting our time.<p>One of the concepts of MB is that not all marriages can be saved. So no one here will argue with you that your marriage might be wrong for you. What we are concerned about is the things you are saying and the way you speak about your marriage and your wife. There is very little compassion or deep insight coming from your posts. Instead what I hear is my wife is mentally ill, I'm perfect and yeah I'm free now. <p>Art, I have been through 2 divorces. One when I was 26 and one when I was 40. Both of my ex's had sever emotional problems that resulted in emotional and mental abuse of me and my child. If you would search on my name here on MB I've told the stories here. Not once, did I feel like celebrating when I finally gave up on the marriages and filed for divorce. I did not feel free and happy. I felt devastated, drained and so deeply mournful that the marriages did not work. After all I did love both of them at one time. In each case we had built a lot together and it was devastating to end the marriage, even though I knew it was the healthy thing for me. <p>There are some things about your posts that people are reacting to. And it is not that you feel your marriage is not good for you. <p>There is a superficial quality, perhaps because of your youth, perhaps because you are not facing facts yet. So far everything we have been told is how terrible your wife is. What she has done wrong. The only wrong you admitted to is that your married her for the wrong reasons. And to boot, the reasons you give are insulting to your wife.<p>Here's a twist- maybe getting out of this marriage was good for me and that I will seek to do better the second time around.<p>What have I learned from my first marriage:<p>1.) Don't marry because you feel sorry for your potential spouse.
What a gross, patronizing statement. It's a very typical statement for a WS to make. So it is her fault 'cause she is so pathetic.<p>2.) Don't marry because you feel you cannot do better.
This is a thinly vailed as self-depreciation, it's actually an insult to your wife. She is not good enough for you. So it is her fault because she is not good enough for you.<p>3.) Don't marry when you know you aren't emotionally mature (I admit it) yet.
Again thinly vailed as self-depreciation. It's not my fault for marrying some one not worthy of me because I was young and imature. So I'm not responsible for marrying her.<p>4.) Don't marry when you don't know what you want out of a spouse.
See #3.<p>
5.) Don't marry someone who is mentally ill.
Again, another patronizing statement about your wife. Has she been diagnozed as mentally ill? What mental illness does she have? From your posts she was ok for the first 6 years of your relationship. Then she became mentally ill in the last two years. And of course this is her fault because she is somehow not good enough for you and deficient.<p>Them's may be the facts for you. But, Art, you have yet to tell us what your contributions were to the failure of your marriage. I would love to hear your wife's side of the story. I bet it's quite different from yours.<p>RE: "Yes PRAY for me for I am headed for eeternal damnation. I can feel the horns growing out of my head already."<p>Art, please stop acting so childish. What on earth did you throw this in here for? Again, if you are going to insult those you ask for input, then don't ask for it. No one here said that you are evil for wanting to end a marriage that you are not happy with. They are trying to warn you of the path they can see you have set for yourself. Remember that most of us cannot see the forest for the trees in our own lives. So that is why we ask for input from third parties? who can usually see things quite clearly. Most of the people who responded to you have seen a lot of comings and goings on this forum and in their own lives. They are not unknowing when it comes to human nature and relationships. You have gotten some very good and insightful input. It is your choice if you decide to ignore it and even blast people. The people here on MB do not tip-toe around. We generally have only a limited number of posts to give any one person help and input. So we cut to the quick and say it as we see it. <p>RE: Another fact is that I love my wife as a human being and would support her in any way except being a life partner. I can be her friend and anything else. Maybe there is hope for us- but I know she has to mature. Maybe separation will do us both good. <p>Again I see this as patronizing. Ho, hum, I promised to love and cherish you for my entire life. But well I don't after all but I'll be your friend. Be prepared, she may not want you as a 'friend'. A friend would probably stay around and help her. Not dump her because she is settled for, not good enough, a choice made in maturity, and mentally ill.<p>RE: I have to heal and figure out what I want first before I move romantically in any direction- whether that is to heal my marriage or to move on.<p>Ah, now there is a statement that is healthy and makes sense. I hope you stick by it. <p>RE: You mentioned hurt that I've caused- the hurt that I feel most is that that I've caused my in-laws. They treated me like their own son and I feel I've betrayed them so much.<p>Ah, we are not talking about the hurt that YOU FEEL MOST. We are talking about the hurt you caused not only to your in-laws but also to your wife. You just said that you don't give a hang about the hurt you caused her. I can tell you that if my H did not care about the hurt he caused me and talked about me the way you talk about your wife, I'd appear to be mentally ill too. <p>RE: I figure ther are people who have done and are going through what I'm going through right now.<p>Yes there are people like this. Many of the people right here at MB fall into that category. The problem is that we are not telling what you want to hear. <p>You would get a much better reception here if you stopped degrading your wife, cheering and showing no remorse for the end of your marriage, and actually admitted to and discussed things that YOU did wrong? the things that you contributed to terrible state of your marriage. In addition, it would help if you studied the MB principles and worked here to put them into your life. It is very hard and painful work to look deep inside instead of outward for the source of our unhappiness. Abe Lincoln once said that a person is about as happy as they decide to be.<p>That is what this site is about.<p>Z
[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

You know, there is something ridiculous about this post. AV's life is moving WAY too fast!<p>Nov. 18: my wife has become unstable in her work and has not been working in over a year. At her last job, she lost her temper and got herself fired. Also, [I] am truly in love with the woman that has re-entered my life.<p>Nov. 29: I'm back and happy. The quagmire that was once my marriage is now over. I've never been happier. Also, even during my marriage, there was never a day that went by that I did not think of her [OW]. I say it's destiny. I feel about this woman ways I never felt about anyone.<p>Nov. 30: My wife is working in Vancouver at a job she likes and I'm happy for her. We are both getting on with our lives.<p>Dec. 1: I've been thinking about the OW- and as each day goes by she becomes more of a friend and nothing else.<p>This is nutty. In two weeks AV goes from unemployed, unstable wife and in love with OW, to being happily released from marriage, to wife now happily employed and OW just a friend??<p>OK, I think we can all ignore this one from now on.<p>As for soulmate11, she's got to be the author of that lame book, which is probably about to be remaindered. Last ditch effort to sell it: find marriages in trouble and pump your book!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Rose Red

Life is never too fast. You miss too much these days if you stop to think. Life is way too short to be miserable.<p>My wife and I are speaking like humans again. Stay tuned....