for putting up with me, and my particular path to healing. I do appreciate all who have responded to me, no matter the "temperature" of the response. I will be around for awhile, and probably go to lurking, before finally weaning myself back to the real world. If perchance I have neglected to respond to anyone, feel free to remind me so I can comment. I do apologise thorned rose to neglecting (for the most part) your analytical posts re my person. I don't mind being analyzed, and am self-aware enough to take such things in stride, I just simply did not have the time to um...... correct much of your surmise [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But I do appreciate a fellow traveler in the nertheworld of understanding why we do what we do. <p>I think I have apologized to anyone I inadvertently offended, I never seek to hurt anyone for my gain, if I have neglected to apologize anywhere plz accept this as that. Plz know that despite my hardheaded need to analyze love, and marriage, and suggest that one not live with an un-nurtured marriage, I have shed many tears for many of you, so much pain and sorrow here, but it is so human that folks reach out to each other even in their own pain.... this is a very good place methinks despite it's own biases. <p>I have listened to everyone who spoke to me, and considered carefully your thoughts. I do think I pretty well understand what happened to me now, and what to do about it. I was very naive re marital issues, love, and human bonding, I feel much more comfortable now, that I have a sufficient knowledge base to proceed. As many of you have suggested (and wearied of), one can only ruminate, and explore for so long before taking action, I knew that, just had to work this through in my own time. There is nothing more to really explore, I have seen enough variety of others lives, uncovered all the issues, and now really will end up just repeating myself, and annoying one and all. <p>Considering my status as a ws, and one not enthusiastically committed to my marriage, most here have been remarkably polite, and helpful, I really really do appreciate that. In my own way I too am trying to heal and recover. When there is some permanent resolution in my life I will return and post [I know I hate it when I don't get to find out how a story turns out [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ], it may be some time though. Plz know I will not mistreat thinker, and regardless of our future I will be as supportive as possible to her, nor do I blame her in any way for my actions...our failed marriage was both our doings...but leaveing prematurely was my choice, and not fair. Should we end up divorcing, it is only fair to let her set the terms, and so I will. In the meantime we will continue the harley counselling, let time and self-introspection (on both our parts) draw us to our paths, and live our lives.<p>I feel also a need to clarify (for the nth time), my marital choices are not about the ow. I fully agree with, and did so, in ending affairs. Whatever happens with thinker and I is the outcome of 23 years of marital disharmony, and has absolutely nothing to do with the ow. That I had an affair, and ow is now a part of who I am cannot be changed, that this had an effect on my marriage cannot be denied...but it is not the be all and end all of my marital life. People continually talk to me in terms of choosing the ow. That is not the case, that relationship is gone, it was stopped voluntarily by both of us, with the full understanding one cannot forge a life that way, and we each went, alone, back to our marriages to deal with our lives. No one is waiting in the wings for anyone, there is no "trading" going on, you cannot do that, even if you try. If thinker and I divorce, we will each walk away alone, as one must. Further I know the ow will not interfere in my life even if her marriage ends, likewise I would not interfere with hers if mine ends. I don't know why people insist on talking to me about choosing to go be with the ow, maybe it is so common and is just the mindset here. It wouldn't work that way, I know that. This is only about thinker and me, that's all. However, I also realize that no matter what I say or do, I will always be a fallen man, an adulterer, and some will judge me accordingly. Likewise if we divorce, many will never believe it is about thinker and me, but will brand me a cheater, and one who abandoned their spouse in a reprehensible manner. There is nothing I can do about this, and as the student has noted, the truth about who I am will never really matter to some. The only path to redemption for a ws is to stay married and make it work. If I had it to do over again, I would have faced my marital issues before I had an affair. Living in ignorance re these issues, and depending on blind obedience to ideals will not save you, that is the lesson, and it was a hard one.<p>Like most of you this has also been a journey in self-discovery. I too have rode the roller coaster, experienced utter despair, and contemplated suicide, no one should have to go through this crap, but this is the inevitable result of how our species conducts interpersonal issues, and it needs to change. But as they say, what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger if you let it, and I do. I have also learned life is not always as it seems, and this experience has forced me to look hard at my relationship with God too, something we should all do more often. Despite my vigorous posts, I realize I do not have all the answers, and to some extent life is a roll of the dice...no gaurantees, never any gaurantees.<p>Good luck to you all, my posts will diminish, and I promise not to post any more what is love questions. I will still be supportive where I can till I go, and may post a question or two (yeah I have a few left). But I may write a book, there is a marked absence of material for folks who find themselves in the no mand land between staying or leaveing a marriage. There is a need to help people organise their thoughts, review the issues, and options, without pushing for one solution or another...and their needs to be a lot more discussion about what marriage should be, and how much denial, fear, co-dependence, and low level abuse issues play in marriages that stay together, but should end, but have very little support to do so..... especially for women trapped in submissive type relationships, but plenty of men too. There also needs to be a lot more discussion about the confusion of being in-love with being in-love, the "picture" of marriage, rather than the reality of marriage, and how one that doesn't work right is hazardous to ones health, mental and physical. There are way too many unahppy married people in this world, and there is no excuse for that. Plain and simple many are married to people who should never be married to anyone. But anyways, we'll see, would be a big project.

goshhhh.. what wonderful, thoughtful, and heartfelt words, snl. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hate to give such a short answer, but I truly hope that you DO stay around a bit, lurk, and jump in when you feel like it. And I hope the best for you, and for Thinker, as well as your kids. Please know that we are here for you as well. Your words have quite often been MOST valuable on here, and definitley thought-provoking. <p>I wish I had more to say, perhaps something else will come to me, and I'm sure others will be on to respond as well. <p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

SnL<p>I've never posted to you before but have followed many of your threads and comments. Although I may not agree with everything you say, you make some valid points and have sparked some very interesting discussions.<p>Is there a reason you are leaving MB? I'm not sure if I missed something.<p>Like I said, I may not have always agreed with you but will be sad to see you go. I wish you and thinker the best.<p>Good luck
Kathy

SNL I must say that I will be sad to see you go.
I wish for you and Thinker the best and can only hope that you both find peace in your hearts on this journey.
All the best,
C

snl,<p>Sorry to see you go. Thank you for allowing me to see things "from the other side". I must admit, many of your opinions/perspective was above my comprehension, but invaluable nonetheless. I hope someday my W gives our marriage a chance like you have, free from the influence of the OM. I truly believe that is the only way to be certain that what ever decision is made is correct. Otherwise one might always wonder "what if...?".<p>Good luck to you and thinker now matter how things turn out.<p>sad dad

I was hoping that you would say you would post "the rest of your story." I will miss our 'debates.' Sometimes they are a headache...but they did help me clarify my thoughts...and, you were 'thoughtful' and 'supportive' when the chips were down.<p>So my fellow Michigander...I wish you well on your 'quest.' I hope you find that for which you are looking.<p>Cali

no special reason (as in I have a pretty thick skin)....just the usual reasons, real life calls, this place has served its purpose for me, hopefully I have returned something in kind, cannot live here forever. Although it may not be apparent by my persona here, I do not sit around and contemplate life exclusively, I take action, definitive action....but I do like it to be reasoned, thought out action, and this is the toughest nut I have ever had to crack. 8 months ago I woke up to the startling reality my life was completely out of control, I hadn't a clue what was happening to me, and was going on pure instinct. Not understanding stuff makes me very nervous, and anxious, so I set about focusing everything I had on figureing this all out, it is a life or death issue far as I am concerned. But everything has a season, and although this was confusing, and difficult, it does not take forever to reach various conclusions, and to then incorporate that understanding into action, I am ready to act, so need to contemplate that some, and no one can help me with that. I pretty much know what I am going to do (in general), but I need to um.....look at it more (details), and I cannot do that here.

snl / thinker... I see from Thinker's response on my thread, that she is upset. Is there something going on that we can try to help you guys with? We want so much to see you both grow and see your marriage grow as well. I can see that Thinker still has so much pain and bitterness. snl, I hope that you have allowed her to express this, so that she can heal and move forward. Thinker, I hope that you are healing and moving forward, and can get to a point of forgiving snl and letting him off the hook for his A.<p>Forgive me if I'm butting in. You can ignore me if you like. But I thought I would throw out my thoughts and observations this evening. All of us here would LOVE to see you two work things out and get on track.

snl,<p>I for one will sorely miss you and I mean that. I think you are a stand up guy with a streak of decency, intelligence and sensitivity that is rare. I so admire your desperate desire to understand and do the right thing. I will also miss your courage and boldness in confronting hard issues around here. I hope you will stay in touch and continue to post from time to time - I just love reading your thoughts. <p>Dana

Godspeed SNL (I always think of Saturday Night Live when I see these initials here at MB...it's one of my favorite programs and has been for nearly twenty years.) Your posts were always enlightening and heartfelt and your honesty unabashed. I'll always be thankful for being able to dwell within your thoughts and theories if only for the moment. The wealth of knowledge that I've gained from dissecting your posts is beyond my own comprehension. It all seems to make sense......for awhile....LOL!<p>Please remain true to yourself and may God bless you and yours<p>[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: GeezLouise ]</p>

Thanks SNL. You have provided some thought provoking ideas...and helped me see my relationship for what it really was. Stil wish it was different tho.<p>I wish you and your wife the best...Take Care

Interesting stuff, s_n_l,
As always, your family is in my prayers, regardless...

snl - I too will be sorry to see you go. The first post of yours irritated me beyond belief, but I already told you that, and why. I have found you to be a very rational and compassionate individual who, like all of us, is just searching for answers. You have just been a little more vocal about doing it here. Your words have always struck home to me as it seems we are riding in much the same boat. <p>I have realized that the 'connection' just isn't there anymore, if it really ever was and now am in the situation of determining just what to do about it. I am not ready to give up on my marriage, but there does need to be some kind of resolution to this as I cannot live in this void. So I too am searching.<p>I hope that you find your answers and can put your life in order. You have given me much through your words and hope that I can too find the peace that we are both searching for.<p>[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: victoria farrar ]</p>

snl,<p>I have always pretty much taken the straight forward approach with you, mainly because I feel like you are straight forward and would want that. That said, I am just going to come right out and ask the question I have. From this thread it sounds like you've decided to leave your family. Is this true?<p>ANNA

So, you're thinking about seperation/divorce, am I wrong?<p>Just one question, please take a while to respond. Do you feel that you have done everything you can to make your marriage work, and that you have had enough time to "wear off" the affects of your affair?<p>Be honest. When you look inside, what do you see? If you see a man that feels good about himself, who knows he has done everything he could do, and his marriage just was not meant to be, then I wish you the best of luck SnL. I hope your future is bright (and Thinker's as well). You have fought the good fight.<p>If, however, you do not see that man. If you are not sure. Don't rush into anything, please. It sounds like you are taking a sabatacle to come to these conclusions.<p>Please let us know what you decide. Just don't do it before the holidays, please, no need to ruin Christmas.<p>Thank you for being here for me when I needed you.
HbH

SNL,
I hate to see you go. Lurking around I hope you will do often. I think sometimes you just like to stir the pot and it's great. It's great because it makes you think more about an issue and others times you had me on the floor rolling with laughter.<p>I hope no you think of the consequences before you step cause I know I am. Do try to live life to the fullest in God. Remeber who your real friends are! Thinker has been by your side trough think and thin just as SEM has been by my side.<p>Good luck to you both. My prayer's are with you. Sherry

Dear SnL: <p>Good luck on your continued journey!<p>And, don't forget to "read up" on the Dalai Lama-- if/when you find the time. Regardless of whether or not you agree with his personal philosophies on what brings us internal happiness/peace, I think you'd have to agree that he is a very PASSIONATE soul.<p>As for your opinion regarding "in-love" and what it is/should be, I have never felt "threatened" or taken offense to your view. After all, I do AGREE that we all deserve to have that special *magic* in our marriage. I, too, would not want to "settle" for less than what is possible. I think, perhaps, we just disagree on how one goes about finding the *magic*.<p>BTW, on your other thread, you asked me: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Why does marie want to be married? Is it cause it makes her feel secure, and content, her life is in order, is predictable, gets along with her H well enough, and just lives her life till she dies? Or is it something else, if so, what?<hr></blockquote><p>And, just so there's no confusion, I wanted to let you know that being alone does not scare me. I do not stay married out of convenience, or because I think I "must", or because I don't earn enough $$ on my own.<p>Marie wants to remain married because, quite simply, she loves her H-- really loves him!<p>...dare I be bold enough to state that I have FOUND MY PERFECT FIT-- WITH MY H (???)!! For, not only do I "hear" my H's song, but I sing along with him; not only do I "see" my H, but I share his view. I'm not simply PASSIONATE about this man-- but, with him, I'm "more". I'm entranced by the sound of his voice, dizzy with the touch of his hand, intoxicated by his natural scent, and bewitched by his heavenly taste. <p>Loving my H is as natural as breathing.<p>And that, SnL, is why Marie WANTS to remain married to her H.<p>Wishing and hoping that you find what you're searching for...

Peace to you and your family, ~Marie<p>[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

sounds good marie, that is how it should be methinks, but only when it goes both ways....unfortuneately too often people seem to be in-love with being in-love and really do not deal with the reality of their marriage.....the line between dependence and in-love is very fine I suspect, and denial is pretty common. I personally don't think their is the slightest doubt when two people "perfectly" match, what I think is we do not practice radical honesty as radically as we should, so bury doubt. Steve asked me quite a bit today about the stuff I think about and post here, he asked me to define in-love..... I told him it is a safe feeling, and a totally vulnerable feeling, but no anxiety, no gaurding, no loneliness...and a passionate feeling, marking time when apart by when you will be together again, thinking every thought, taking every action as if you were your other half, wanting nothing more in life than to wake up every day and see their eyes looking back, and having no doubt they feel the same way...stuff like that, he thought it made sense. I liked what you said back about songs and seeing, it is very much true. Ya see marie, IMO I think this is how it works, but people do not have to have it to live, one can settle and be comfortable, it just um........ annoys me some when that is described as the condition of in-love, it is not. It has to be as you said, and it has to be BOTH, if only one feels this way it is false, it is not love IMO.<p>Thx for the replies, I will get back to you, and I do appreciate the comments re my efforts to explore these things philosophically.

SnL,<p>I too am sorry to see you go. There have been times I wanted to reach thru my puter and cyber slap ya (j/k), and then there's those times you show so much compassion and understanding it touched my heart.<p>You've forced me to think and see things about adultery from the WS's perspective and helped me understand what people feel when they find themselves questioning their path in life and who they have chosen to walk it with.<p>I don't know where you and Thinker are headed, altho you have eluded a separation, but I believe we haven't see the last of you. Unfortunetly, I'm pretty sure you're going to find yourself back here with more problems and questions, and in more confusion that what you're experiencing now. I don't relish saying that because I would like you see you and Thinker happy and at peace, whether together or apart. <p>Thank you for all your help and contribution. Thank you for letting us get to know you and for being honest and brave enough to tell us what you think, even in the face of adversity. And thank you for showing compassion for us (BS & WS alike) when we needed it most.<p>God Bless and take good care.<p>Love,
Jo<p>p.s. I hope you still lurk a bit and post when it's needed. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

AWWWW, come on SNL......STICK AROUND. Post some of that insight every now and then.<p> jd