Hailey,
I see you've already decided to go, but I decided to post to you anyway. I'm both a former BS & former WS. WS lie.<p>As he plans to go to something you'll be at, you can be sure he says to his wife that she'd be bored or looks tired or he knows she doesn't like those people but he feels he needs to go for "awhile" and will be home early, but doesn't, as he later tells her, because he was having fun or talking to "Z" cuz that guy has problems. Or car trouble. Or had to drive a drunk home, and decided they should eat, or got drunk himself--he didn't think he drank that much but was too far gone to call home, so he crashed on a friend's couch, or in the back of his SUV or golly, that must be what a blackout is like....<p>I know what is said in the home to placate the BS and get the WS out of the house for the evening and back in without too much wrangling. The WS wants the BS to believe and is convincing, the BS wants to believe. WS denial of wrongdoing and BS denial that something is wrong are both very powerful in keeping the house of cards standing.<p>You really don't know what is going on in that household, you only have hearsay, not admissable in court for a reason.<p>A WS who lives with their spouse always lies and omits telling certain things to the OP, generally like the fact that they sleep with their spouse--who by the way cooks their meals and does their laundry--and the WS hasn't said they want a divorce.<p>For a serious affair, the WS leaves. <p>Like mine did---er 7 times. When he left, he wanted to come home, even with full understanding, soulmatish, encouragement from the OW that she was there for him. Then when he left me the last time, I gave up, served the D papers and started dating the OM, H discovered he didn't really want to lose me--angry, little ole MB Plan A, unexciting, homebody that I had been. Suddenly he saw I was beautiful, wonderful, desirable...I was his wife! You don't have to believe me, you can check my H's words, he posted as Guard here in GQII in Feb 2000 "I betrayed my wife for 1 1/2 years and now I think".<p>And...the OM had been so nice & patient with me & seemed to be offering me a delightful future, I have to admit in a non-MB way that pursuing the divorce was pretty high on my agenda for a few weeks. But, I still lied to the OM about the time I spent with my H, often H's visitation was more us as a family than him with the kids. Lots of times H & I hugged, even kissed hello & goodbye. The first separation he wouldn't have sex with me, the last I wouldn't with him, but we did in every other separation and reconciliation--whether he was having the A or not, he was denying the A and sleeping with me.<p>No, the OP doesn't have the whole picture, but I believe that you believe the MM...and you believe you "know".<p>BS do tend to be more angry at the OP, because the BS loves the WS and still hopes for the future. The OP is nothing in the BS's life but a source of pain and an easy place to focus the anger & hurt of betrayal.<p>The anger you are encountering here is a stage of grief, one that is necessary, but not a place to stay. No more than feeling guilty is where the WS should be emotionally stuck.<p>Certainly my H & I have had a lot go wrong, made some wretchedly bad decisions in our marriage but we are in recovery, the OP are out of our lives--except when we run into them in our not-large-enough community. We love each other and want to make our marriage successful and we tell each other every day. <p>Cheaters don't always continue to cheat, you are right about that, but something within both the WS & within the marriage (the current or next) has to change so it doesn't become a pattern.<p>Hailey--Really, strive for a better relationship than with a person who is a legally married, unavailable, living with spouse...and lying to both of you. <p>Anyone deserves better than that.

It's always really striking to me that posts from OP get more attention than other posts.<p>Has anyone here changed their mind from when this thread began?<p>Here's a better question:
Has anyone posted something on this thread that they haven't said before?<p>My bet is NO.<p>I guess the most striking part of all of this (to me at least) is that it's the same responses from the same people as when I first came here.<p>Have any minds been changed? Mine hasn't. Not really. I see things differently. I understand things differently. But real change. No.<p>So while there are amazing gems and grains of truth all around this seems (to me at least) to be a waste of time.<p>Both sides have WAY over simplified the situation ane becasue people are talking about things close to their hearts it's really charged.<p>Why? Why bother?<p>JMHO

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hailey:
<strong>I am sure that I am not the OW for your particular situation - so you generalize. You believe your situation is unique and that no matter what you do to your WS to drive - yes drive them away - I didn't say into an A - I said AWAY from you - that that is justified because you are the W - but looking at your profiles I see that I have maintained much more stable relationships than most of you even with this A - -</strong><hr></blockquote><p> "And behold, a woman comes to meet him, dressed as a harlot, and cunning of heart. She is boistrous and rebellious, her feet do not reamin at home." [b] Proverbs 7:10-11<p>[b] This is the way of an adulterous woman. She eats and wipes her mouth, and says, "I have done nothing wrong." Proverbs 30:20<p>'nuff said.

Oh! I DO have one more thing to say:<p>Faith1, Lil Sis, if you're around, READ THIS whole thread.<p>THIS is why you are NOT going to contact your H's OW. They are JUST as F@#$ed up as WS's. <p>OH!! Sorry for that mess -- I WAS writing the word "FOGGED UP." [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lupo

Katie,
Why would posts to Hailey be any different than posts to you? You are both OW who say similar things about your affairs with MM, including that the W lack social graces, so yes, replies will be the same...and sorry we couldn't import some new posters for her, but, that's how the board goes... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, you say understand a little better...I think that's reason enough to say it all again. Even if your opinion didn't change. Understanding is good.

Scarlett,<p>Why bother? Because she asked. Because she has not heard this before. Because sometimes we hope some poor OW will listen and not let herself be drug through the mud. Just because. <p>Tell me. Why did she, and you for that matter, bother to come here? If you have not changed your mind? If you have changed but not changed, they why? Why are you too wasting your time here?<p>You have been here a very short time. Recently the OP posts have gotten a lot of attention. That's because not much else 'different' has been going on. This is nothing compared to some of the things that have gone on... like the time one lady was suicidal and we (we used loosely here ) tracked her down in the UK and got the bobbies there before she was able to carry it out. <p>Like the time a woman's bi-sexual husband was forcing her into sexual intimacy she did not want. We found her a battered woman's hot line to get her out of the situtation. <p>A lot more goes on here then battering with 'poor OW'. <p>One thing I have noticed is that OM almost never feel the need to come here. But OW can be relentless about sticking up for their poor, neglected MM. It's a very interesting thing. Can you shed any light on that? I've always been curious about it.

Ha Ha Ha Ha! Nduli2, your stuff gave me the biggest laugh I've had in the last 3 months (since d-day)! The people in my office were wondering what was so funny. Hailey and WS are going to "run off to a magical fairyland made of candy and own a bilion horses and a rocket-ship and live happily ever after. There is that better. Run along now dear."<p>Sarcasm at its sharpest! I'd love to print off your posts and give them to my WS to read (Oh, but that would be a big LB. WS is so far up da Nile river she would probably side with our Ms. Hailey). <p>This unreal outlook on the deceptive relationship is what really irks me about the WS (and OP). "If I stay with my BS who's a big meany and doesn't understand me, I'll miss out on my Soulmate Shangra-La." BARF. With few exceptions (and I don't personally know of any), Soulmate Shangra-La turns out to be other person purgatory.<p>MESSAGE TO HAILEY: I would love to hear what you have to say in several months (years?) from now when this situation either blows up in your face, or you slink away from it quietly feeling guilt-ridden and used. Am I a bitter and angry BS, YES I AM! What else would you expect. I wasn't bitter before the A. Have a happy life.

Scarlett, <p>Another question you or Haily may be able to answer. Why do OW feel that need to come here to "teach BS's a lesson"? Why?<p>Why do they assume to know what ALL of our marriages are like and tell us things like we are driving our WS's away? Why?<p>Why would the OW come here and expect the BS to feel anything but anger or distust or other bad feelings about them? Why?<p>Scarlett, you know me well enough to know that I am not being mean to you here. Never have been. I'm looking for a real answer.

Okay folks once again - I did not come here to "teach the BS's a lesson" I have NO LESSON TO TEACH YOU. I do not excuse what I did in the PA nor do I deny that an EA is wrong and takes away from the sacred vows that he made with another woman - boy you guys don't hear anything!!!! What happened/is happening between me and this guy was and is very wrong - that is why we ended the PA - OUT OF RESPECT FOR HIS MARRIAGE did you get that!!! But being here today - has certianly changed my mind - I before had reservations that what he was saying about her was true and before I thought that if it was true - if she had withdrawn from him than he must have been the cause but now, my god now, I have seen the light - I feel downright sorry for him if this is what he's living with. No Katie Scarlet your mind hasn't been changed but mine has here today - I see why this affair began - now I really do.
I came here with a story of an ended affair and how I felt bad and wrong and guilty for having been involved and with an explination not an excuse of how it began - I was wrong to come here - you guys don't want to hear that - I understand -but like I said - I came her with contrite I leave here with none - good job guys - you've taken away my guilt. Thank you

In your own typed words Hailey you said:
"We are still in almost daily contact via email, telephone, etc - we are managing to keep it plutonic - and not sexual - we both are deep into not wanting to totally let the other go and I see this"<p>So how exactly has the affair ended? Because you haven't given up the goodies lately...It's called an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR when the sex isn't involved. Give up on trying to recant your first post, you put it out there, now you need to take your head from out of the sand.

hailey...good job guys - you've taken away my guilt. Thank you <p>snl...How does one do that?<p>I am neither a bs or a woman, in fact I am a ws, but I pretty much agree with the points made (heatedly or not) by those who posted to you. You do seem to be kinda touchy about all this.... I gotta ask you, what did you expect? You come to a place where you know a lot of people are hurting, over actions (whether justified or not) taken by someone in your position, and you don't think there will be a little heat? The basic truth is clear (well should be to anyone who can think), in the final analysis no one can really know the truth about someones marriage (unless they are pretty much living there 24/7), maybe she is a shrew, a controlling whatever, and you could love him and make him happy, but if that is so, then why hasn't he told her about you? If you truly love someone, you do not deny them....ever. But in any event, surely you did not expect a medal for ending the affair (which you have not done anyways), that is only being responsible.

*blinks* Wow, you're a dumb one....you sure you're still breathing?<p> Btw, honey I am being mean to you because I think people like you make life hell for the decent and upstanding people of this world. If the WS's are so damned unhappy they should get the hell out of the marriage before taking up with the likes of you, period. My ex, had it pretty good, regular sex, dinner made for him ever night, back rubs, put him through college, always offered an ear to his problems...But he also has some mental problems(both parents are mentally ill) and he had a MLC and flaked out. Sorry not my problem. But his little ***** OW sure was and so was the debt he left me to deal with along with driving me out with violence in the end. I'm sure she thinks she's special too(short bus special sure. She actually had the nerve to tell me that the suffering I was going through would be good for my career as an artist. I told her to swing by my house and I'd make a master artist out of her [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) But her time will come and then she can deal with the depression, mood swings, wild spending habits and so on.
Don't paint us with your brush, you don't know crap about any of us here and we really don't give a flying frog's [censored] about you. Am I bitter? Maybe a little considering the things I was put through by a self centered little boy who couldn't face up to his problems, problems I spent ten years of my life dealing with and helping him with and supporting him through. But so what? That's my right, sweetie. It's my f***ing badge for having lived through this crap and come out whole. Don't like it? TS!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>Scarlett, <p>Another question you or Haily may be able to answer. Why do OW feel that need to come here to "teach BS's a lesson"? Why?</strong><p>I never came here to teach anybody else a lesson. I wanted to see things from the other side. And I did. Why do BS's assume that OP coming here want to be schooled. I honestly was just curious. There is a lot of preaching going both ways sometimes.<p>Why do BS's sometimes come off like "i'm right, you're wrong, you need to listen to me!"<p>Why do they assume to know what ALL of our marriages are like and tell us things like we are driving our WS's away? Why?<p>I never assumed that. Although a lot of assumptions were made about me and my situation. Gross generalizations are made on both sides. <p>I think that because we as OP don't fully understand your view, we say things that are not meant to be mean. Then you read them later and say "oops." There was one off handed comment that I made a while back (I won't repeat it). I was joking around with someone on here. When I read it back later I felt really bad. You loose sight of how deep this runs for BS's. Feelings around this topic run deeply for me, but in a differnt way than they do for your guys.<p>I've seen BS's on here use the word "whore" like it was nothing. Then talk about how peaceful and happy they were feeling in their recovery.
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Why would the OW come here and expect the BS to feel anything but anger or distust or other bad feelings about them? Why?<p>BS's come to glory b all of the time and are not greeted with anger or disgust. Ok, sometimes they are, but it's not assumed that the BS is the enemy right out of the box. Here OP are [often] considered the enemy from the word go. I came here thinking i'm sad, they're sad, maybe we'll have something in common.<p>Scarlett, you know me well enough to know that I am not being mean to you here. Never have been. I'm looking for a real answer.[/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Hope this helps.<p>I'll respond to your other post in a minute

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>Scarlett,<p>Why bother? Because she asked. Because she has not heard this before. Because sometimes we hope some poor OW will listen and not let herself be drug through the mud. Just because. </strong><p>I can see that <p><strong>Tell me. Why did she, and you for that matter, bother to come here? If you have not changed your mind? If you have changed but not changed, they why? Why are you too wasting your time here?</strong><p>This has certainly been an education for me. I came here with many, many questions about marriage. What motivates people to stay married despite impossible circumstances. I have gotten quite the education here. QUITE! Maybe not in the way that you guys would have wanted - I guess. But it's certainly been eye opening hanging out here. And I like coming here. NO not to be mean to BS's. I have never [intentionally] been mean to BS's here. But you guys have shown me a lot!<p>[caveat]
here's a bit of what i've come to understand:
there are all different view of marriage. Many here embrace the traditional view. Bible based (till death do us part), etc. I, on the other hand, have a more new agey view. eg. the holy spirit will only keep 2 souls together for the period of time that they will receive the maxium benefit from physical proximity. Then they appear to seperate... <p>In easy to understand terms this means that if I ever marry i'll have vows like "you're my teacher and I am yours. I promise to love, honor and respect you forever. If and when the time comes for either one of us to learn from a new teacher I will joyously release you..."
[end caveat]<p>I think that there is a lot of good happening over here. A lot of people being supported who might not have been otherwise. A lot of marriage healed [weather that ends in divorce aor recovery.]<p><strong>One thing I have noticed is that OM almost never feel the need to come here. Can you shed any light on that? I've always been curious about it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Women communicate WAY more than men do in general. I know OM who lurk here and say "why bother." WHile most women can talk all day about the color of wall paper. That's just the way it is.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Wow - Great thread - many thoughtful responses. I just have some short observations:<p>1) Hailey - you said you "let your H go" to be with his OW. How noble!! At least you were able to be a part of the decision - the wife of your MM has no such part in any decision - she has been removed from the decision-making process by her unfaithful, untruthful (i.e. lying) husband.<p>2) Katie Scarlett - true - affairs are caused by some problem either in the marriage or the WS (still that does not excuse an affair) and that the WS can either fix the problem with the spouse or the OP. Well - if the WS were inclined at all to fix the problem, they would have done it with the spouse. Having an affair is a substitute for fixing the problem. When WS sees BS as the source of the problem, has affair as a solution, the motivation to fix the problem goes away, and probably will never be fixed, at least until some crisis triggers some introspection. But I wouldn't bet on it!!<p>3) True, both spouses are responsible (sometimes both equally, sometimes one more than the other) for the breakdown of the relationship. But it only takes one person to cause a break-up (the final severing). In so many cases, there is one spouse who wants to repair and one that wants to leave, the one wanting to leave is usually the one having an affair and so has no motivation to work on the marriage. Before the flames come, I am speaking of a marriage with the ordinary type problems - needs not met, lack of communication, neglect, grown apart over the years, etc. Does not apply to situation where substance abuse, physical or emotional abuse are present. But even so, if these things are present, it does not justify an affair. As others have said - if one partner is so unhappy, first do everything you can to fix the problem(s) and then if there is no hope, end the marriage honorable and honestly, telling your spouse that you can no longer stay, leave or make other arrangements that are fair, and let the spouse know of your intention to file for divorce. Only then is one free to find another partner. I believe that you must "earn" your way out. Unilaterally making decisions and ending a marriage with no input from BS or WS not letting BS know of their (WS)'s unhappiness is inexcusable.

hailey,<p>Lets play the blame game. OK, if his wife ever asks, just tell her that the people at MarriageBuilders made you so mad that you decided to F------- her H.<p>She will then say "o.k., I understand, your right hailey, I wouldve done the same thing." <p>....and they lived happily ever after.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lady M:
<strong>
2) Katie Scarlett - true - affairs are caused by some problem either in the marriage or the WS (still that does not excuse an affair) and that the WS can either fix the problem with the spouse or the OP. Well - if the WS were inclined at all to fix the problem, they would have done it with the spouse. Having an affair is a substitute for fixing the problem. When WS sees BS as the source of the problem, has affair as a solution, the motivation to fix the problem goes away, and probably will never be fixed, at least until some crisis triggers some introspection. But I wouldn't bet on it!!
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree 100% that an EMA is NOT the answer to problems in a marriage. I know of several cases, however, WS have changed their lives and gone on to be happily married people. <p>sometimes that meant starting over again with the BS and sometimes that meant beginnign again with the OW or an entirely different person.<p>Certainly it is MUCH easier to begin again with the current spouse (not to mention cheaper) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But in situations where people are really hurt and just plain tired, it does happen that they begin again with the OP.<p>That's no fix-all either. It's a TON of work, but i've seen it done.

too tired to type it all again - but please see my last post under "for hailey" especially you - Katie S.

Hailey,<p>RE: although it probably will not be well received - it surely is interesting for us OW to see the other side and as I'd suspect for you guys -interesting for you to see what our side the OW side is like as well. <p>This is why I get the impression you came here to teach the 'OW side'. This and other things you said say it pretty clearly.

zorweb,
when I feel attacked - and I did - and I do understand why I would have been - just like anybody else - I draw up and attack back - the last post is as close to the reason I came here as I can explain to anyone -