He'll be different with you, you're special<p>You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, building a career, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time. <p>He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you. <p>He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targetting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right? <p>So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU. <p>So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him. <p>And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counsellor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues. <p>So what if he USED YOU to break a trust with a woman he was already seeing? It's not like they were actually *partners* or anything! She was just convenient for hurting his wife (he set her up really nicely to do that a couple of times), getting attention, an ego stroke, and occasional sex while he was waiting for the *right* woman to show up. Since you came along, he doesn't need her anymore. He's got YOU to feed his ego. And breaking her trust was a convenient way to ensure that he wouldn't have to bother with her anymore and could focus on YOU. He did it so carefully too. (He knows that it's the series of "gentle" cuts that leave the most stinking wounds.) That way, SHE would be the one saying she didn't want to have anything to do with HIM, and he could blame HER for why they can't still be friends. Isn't he clever? What a creative way to get rid of someone when they are no longer useful! <p>And if this most recent woman doesn't want to see him anymore or even be friends with him, it must be because she is jealous of the wonderful relationship you and HE have! It must be because he dumped her for you, and she's just not big enough to accept that. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the WAY he did things or tried to blame HER for his behavior. It couldn't have anything to do with him LYING to her and using her, and having a hidden agenda of expectations that he told her she just wasn't living up to. Nope. That would be his old M.O. playing out again, and he was a changed man by the time he met you. So it couldn't be THAT. <p>Besides, even if she deeply cared about him, he didn't have the same deep feelings for her, so that makes it ok to have sex with you, before talking to HER about it, right? He was just so TAKEN with you! Doesn't that just make you feel all . . . oh, I don't know - SPECIAL? She just wasn't long term partner material, and he made that clear to her anyway. If she knew he didn't have the same feelings, and was willing to continue to be used by him because she had fallen in love with him, who was HE to turn down that kind of attention and strokes? It's not like he had any responsibility to not take advantage of someone who was emotionally vulnerable or anything. And he broke things off with her eventually. He just didn't tell her about you and the sex stuff right away because he wanted to *protect* her from getting hurt. What a GREAT guy! See, he really did have amazing consideration for HER feelings! Withholding information isn't the same as LYING or anything. That's not dishonest, right? It couldn't possibly be that he was deliberately stringing her along until he was sure YOU were hooked. No. He's too sweet and charming and nice for that. He was just CONFUSED about his feelings, that's all. Besides, it's not like you two had UNPROTECTED sex before he told her about you, so that he could use you (the way he used HER) to break THAT trust as well... Even if he's BROKEN A SACRED TRUST THIS SAME WAY, SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE (with other partners and lovers), he wouldn't be repeating the same old abuse patterns with you. <p>You're special. <p>And even if he WAS being dishonest at the start of your relationship, he lied to someone ELSE. It's not like he was dishonest with YOU (that you know of, yet), so that makes it OK, right? <p>Even if in his past, he DID say, <p>"Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly... <p>It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." <p>... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with her, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know. <p>He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing cream into your hands and feet at night, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you. <p>So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two met): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special. <p>So what if two of the other women he was involved with wound up in the psychiatric ward? So what if he "helped" a vulnerable friend by encouraging her to break her marriage vows, exacerbating her marital problems, and then abandoning her when she asked if he could be there for her? He needed an ego stroke and she was conveniently there and conveniently vulnerable from a death in the family. So what if he undermined his wife's support network and used a mentally ill woman's attraction to him to try and hurt her further? So what if he used and hurt a dying woman so that he could feel needed in control? So what if he used and was abusive to his life-partner's children in order to get back at his her? (She must have deserved it. THEY must have deserved it. Right? Because he really DOES love kids... or at least, that's what he has said...) The guy YOU know could never be like that. And... well... even if he WAS, he's obviously changed. He's undergone a miraculous transformation in just one year. He's just shed ALL those abusive patterns and become a NEW man. He's going to be completely different, with you. <p>Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special. <p>Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be looking for a person to hook into that is in a different town so that she has less likelihood of finding out his past. He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL. <p>He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special. <p>The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if most of his ex(s) don't want to have anything to do with him, and some now think he is mentally ill, it must be because THEY are unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with them TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU. <p>This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special. <p>Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtlely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life. <p>And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices and moves in with you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL. <p>He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally. <p>It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? He had this abusive childhood, so nobody else is allowed to have anger except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.
And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting abusive again because of something YOU did. <p>And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past! <p>And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. <p>He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL. <p>And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after they broke up, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU. <p>And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him... <p>And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate. <p>Even if he HAS been emotionally abusive and dishonest with others, he's going to be different with you. Especially after you two move intogether. It IS especially hard on him having a long-distance relationship. He wouldn't be talking about how hard it is to keep up the intensity and connectedness over such a distance. He wouldn't be implying that the relationship might not last if you don't move in together... He wouldn't have some kind of hidden agenda around that. He wouldn't be trying to subtley manipulate you, and get you worried about losing him, like he did with the others. He just REALLY CARES for you, and really wants the two of you to be together. <p>He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. <p>So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. <p>He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special. <p>You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right? <p>And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man. <p>But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special. <p>He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now. <p>You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were. <p>YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change. <p>He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU. <p>You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

He sounds like a FANTASTIC guy. It's too bad I'd have to make a lifestyle change in order to get to know him in this way!

kevco,<p>You're such a bad boy!!!

No actually resilient - that doesn't sound familiar to me at all.

jeez jo, now know what you have been doing all day. It was a good post, you did a good job of illustrating many of the games people can play with themselves re relationships. Save it, you will need to post it from time to time and I KNOW you do not want to have to type it again. I suspect it is kind of wasted on Hailey, she is not listening with her head, only her heart.... but it was a heartfelt effort all the same.

Not even this part, Hailey? That's odd, it sounds so very much like what you've been describing your MM's wife to be like ...<p>**************************************************
And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counsellor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues."<p>**************************************************<p>Hailey ...<p>What I thought you might find interesting is I copied this from GloryB.com which is, in case you didn't know, the OW board.<p>A very well respected and more enlightened XOW posted it. Don't you think that interesting, Hailey?<p>I do have a question for you. You say we have absolved or released you of your guilt regarding the A by way of us acting like typical MEAN OLD BS'S (just like your MM's W).<p>So, is having an A still wrong in your eyes, Hailey?<p>Jo<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Hi Jo,<p>It was wonderful...I could not stop reading, and re-reading. It took me back in the most vivid way. You have such a gift. I wish I could send it word for word to each of my STBX's OW. I see Hailey replied. Jo, she is not going to get it, just like most of the OW that post here. (no offense to OP who do "get it"). Jo, think about doing something with this, look into publishing it in a Womans Magazine. It must have felt good for you to have written it too, you sure Lana would'nt appreciate reading it? No, bad idea. I think about you often, I see that you're healing, and I'm so glad. My love to Lora.

I decided this response of mine needed to be said but not to Hailey. It will be setup on a separate thread. <p>L.<p>
[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

I really have to go guys - but - I can't without saying this - I do not think of you guys as you have spoken here - I do not think you are shrews, nor ugly, nor fat, nor witches etc. The MM in this case has not said anything such as you've described to me regarding his W - he has said he loves her - wouldn't have married had he not - that she was his "soul mate" and that he feels horribly guilty about what is happening between us. Do you guys feel that way about yourselves? Because I haven't said that about you. No, why I came here was to gain insight and maybe just maybe shed some light on how this particular A - and let's face it - I know they are mostly all alike - began - and what has transpired in it thus far - Info, that when I was married I would have given my eye teeth for at the time -
We - none of us will ever get anywhere - fighting and calling each other names - I am involved in a mess - a big hugh mess with another couple that is married - I do not hate her - but what's done is done and now - now I'm trying despartly to understand it - how it happened - how much he loves her - why I'm involved etc. I do not believe the things you've said of me today either - I am not "sorry" I am not a "whore" you don't know me either - if I was I wouldn't care but I care very much - that is why I came -

In order to anticipate your response - he did say - that they had grown apart - duh? that he had asked for couseling - she refused - that they lived seperate - by the way, I know they have sex - occasionlly - doesn't bother me - she's his wife - I'm not - he did say it was in a dutiful way - I know - he could be lying - the truth is surely not exactly that - but as you've said I don't know and neither do you - but he did say the good things about her above to - please re-read them - - we are all just hurting and in over our heads and all trying to dig our way out.
like I said - It was me who came to understand - I did not come to teach any lesson - our lessons can only be learned when we are ready to receive them.

In order to anticipate your response - he did say - that they had grown apart - duh? that he had asked for couseling - she refused - that they lived seperate - by the way, I know they have sex - occasionlly - doesn't bother me - she's his wife - I'm not - he did say it was in a dutiful way - I know - he could be lying - the truth is surely not exactly that - but as you've said I don't know and neither do you - but he did say the good things about her above to - please re-read them - - we are all just hurting and in over our heads and all trying to dig our way out.
like I said - It was me who came to understand - I did not come to teach any lesson - our lessons can only be learned when we are ready to receive them.

Resilient, what a powerful post!<p>Hailey, I think that what has been posted here today (here and your thread) reinforces how hurtful an affair with a MM is to the OW. Yes, in a very few cases, she eventually marries the MM after he divorces. But most of the time she is used selfishly by the MM. And when she begins to realize that she has been taken advantage of, it really, really hurts. I suspect that this is what you are dealing with and why you came to MB.<p>May you find peace by ending this affair,
Estes

Hailey, in response to this quote<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...we are all just hurting and in over our heads and all trying to dig our way out.
<hr></blockquote><p>Of course you are hurting. You and MM have chosen to do something deceitful and immoral. You freely chose to do something that is wrong. <p>You dig your way out by agreeing with MM to have absolutely NO CONTACT with one another. No emails, calls, nothing. If he loves you in a way that is good for you, he will divorce his wife and THEN be with you. If he choses to stay with his W, he is telling you loud and clear that you are OK to be with when it suits his purposes, but not important enough to plan a life with.<p>Have your read the MB info on ending an affair? Go to the main web site to find it.<p>Estes

Estes49,
Thank-you - I agree with what you say. That is what I came here for - for insight and to talk with someone on the other side - thank-you.

Estes49,
Thank-you - I agree with what you say. That is what I came here for - for insight and to talk with someone on the other side - thank-you.

Bump ...

Hailey,
I feel like you are I are the same person. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Katie -- I don't see you and Hailey as similar at all other than the commonality of being OW.<p>You seem to be seeking an understanding -- you seem willing to see what other people can show and offer you as insight. You seem to take in and process that information -- some good some bad. But I've never seen you defend your position as an OW -- I've never seen you say that MM was justified in having an affair.<p>Hailey may get there -- responses seem somehow softer in this thread. But I think she got off on the wrong foot on the other thread.<p>Hailey -- if you are interested in helping MM save his marriage you have found a wonderful resource. If however you plan to stay in the picture and involved with him, be prepared for the flames. There are many wounded hurt people here -- if you are a former BS as you have said, I would have expected to see more empathy for the betrayed spouses.<p>If you're up to it, tell us what happened in that first marriage. Had you grown apart by the time you discovered the affair? You seem very callous about the whole event. Was it just so long ago that your feelings have faded about it?

Lexxy,
you're right that other threat just wants to fight - I feel bad that it sucks me in. But my story of my being BS. Yes it has been about 6 years so there has been a lot of distance and a lot of resolution and learning - the pain has been replaced by understanding and knowing a lot more about myself. We were married young 21 - we married for all the wrong reasons - #1 thinking that our love for each other would be enough to overcome the other things in our lives. Not that our lives were bad - but if you can relate - it was a decision based on the wisdom of two 20 year olds- our age at engagement. Yes, we grew apart - we actually grew up I think is more accurate - and the OW was a friend of his - an acquantance of mine - I was more than happy to let her be his confidant - I didn't want to be - he tried to tell me - several times - the last time I remember specifically his exact words were "if things don't change around here - I'm leaving"
I was fine with "things" we had a great sex life - we had great friends - we traveled - we were getting our Master's degrees on top of all of this. We were even planning a family - yes, that's right - I had even gone to the Dr. to get the full check up - meanwhile, I couldn't have been more uncaring about his needs or the ones that I wasn't meeting because we had the perfect Beaver Cleaver household and were heading only up - but, I was miserable - he was miserable - we were doing all the things our families and our church said we were suppose to do at the expense of our selves and who we were suppose to be. Just becasue it "looked good" and society said we were "doing good" the hardest part in this was for me to admitt that yes, I loved him but no, I didn't want to build my life with him - he was the wrong person for me and I for him. This was very hard for both of us to admitt. Like I said - we "looked" good - heck, other couples cried when we broke up - really.
Anyway, maybe that's why I do not believe that all marriages are ment to be. We enter into them sometimes for the wrong reason and we stay because we are afraid of failure, afraid of the unknown and we sacrafice our selves because we were raised to believe that what we are doing is right - even though it's killing us - killing our souls to do it. Maybe that's why I said earlier is it so hard to believe that someone married can fall in love with someone else. Maybe this will help shed some light on that response. Anyway, that's it - that's my story as a BS - but I betrayed my H also - sure he had the PA/EA - once the OW now his W said to me a month after he moved out when I called her to because he was on his way to my house from the town she was in and he had long passed the time he should have shown up - I was worried - I asked - Has he left your house yet - he's not here. She said - Oh, he left you a long time ago - She was right - we had left each other a long time ago.
Anyway, we are good friends now - and I mean good friends - we see each other probably once a month - our families maintain contact and we with each other's family. I love him as you would someone who was/is a very important part of your history and your life and he me - but we shouldn't have maintianed that marriage and lord knows like I said - I wanted to - so did he - but - some marriages are not ment even by GOD to go on.

Thanks for sharing your story Hailey!
I can relate to a lot of it because I also married very young (21 just barely).
And I also attribute a lot of our problems to growing up and apart.<p>Did you suspect the affair? Did you discover it? Or did he simply leave and tell you that it was over? It sounds like you had reached that point yourself -- but was this affair painful to you?<p>Did you hope or want to work out the problems in your marriage? Or did you equally want to move on?<p>And now, what do you hope for in terms of your MM? Is this someone you would want a long term relationship with? Do you want to be a step mother to his boys? Do you still hope to have children yourself? <p>I know you care about him. Do you care about him enough to help him repair his marriage? Do you think that ultimately that is what he wants? Or does he want to leave his wife? <p>Personally, I believe that if you came to the conclusion that it was best that you end this relationship -- and wanted to help him fix his marriage -- you could be one of the greatest success stories on this board.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Lexxxy ]</p>