<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>Melody and Z - it was too drastic - downright "mean" and I believe you both know that. Don't run people off of this site for your own fun - that's cruel.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>renee,
What is mean is when you wrongly intepret someone's meaning and make false accusations based on such. I realize it is hard to admit a mistake, but I have explained my meaning to you and you simply refuse to accept that you made a mistake. THAT is mean and that is proud, Renee, and it is you who should be ashamed.

I'm not the "keeper" of anything, but let me tell you how I see The Repentant Spouse:<p>If you have TURNED AWAY from the OP and are working on your marriage...<p>OR, if you are **actively** TRYING to turn away from the affair, and feel bad and/or guilty for the pain you've caused your spouse...<p>Then you are REPENTANT or at least ON YOUR WAY...<p>However, if you say things like, "I am sorry for the pain I caused, but I will never regret the affair..." or something along those lines.... YOU ARE NOT REPENTANT.<p>Clearly, some people (like me) who would do ANYTHING to take back the HORRIFIC PAIN I caused my family and myself are REPENTANT. <p>Anyone, to me, who still says nicey-nice things about the OP are still in the fog. I don't want to think about the OM, and I certainly don't think of him fondly. During my affair, that song "Mombo #5" was popular. That song is used in commercials sometimes, and I'll tell ya, when it comes on my stomach turns and I have to (if possible) mute the sound. I can't believe the person who cheated was me -- it went against everything I believed in and I hate the person I was during that time. <p>Do you hate the person you were when you cheated?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>just for the record would the keeper of definitions plz define unrepentant ws, I am getting a complex and need to see if I should just go jump off a building or something. Not that I am paranoid, or think the world revolves around me, but I am wondering.<p>maybe could list a set of questions sort of like a test.<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>snl,<p>I don't think you have anything to worry about since you are of the morally neutral crowd and will define your morals according to your own "psychology" [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [did I get that right?]but here is the dictionary definition for your consideration:<p>Main Entry: [1]re·pent
Pronunciation: ri-'pent
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French repentir, from re- + pentir to be sorry, from Latin paenitEre &#8212;more at PENITENT
Date: 14th century
intransitive senses
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive senses
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
- re·pent·er noun<p>Pronunciation Key<p>© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
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I have heard that if you want happiness, you have
to find it in the present. <p>If you keep searching for happiness, you'll never find it because you are looking for someone or something else to make you happy. Happiness needs to come from within. <p>That's where God or some other spiritual power comes into play. You have to love yourself and be happy with yourself before you can bring love and happiness to others. <p>That's why WS's are never at peace, at never happy. Their "happiness" comes at a price. They have this high feeling, but it comes with guilt. You know you are doing the right thing when peace and happiness are yours without being accompanied by any negative feelings. <p>It all boils down to do unto others as you would have them do unto you - or love your neighbor as yourself.<p>I think that the WS's are not inherently bad, or that they don't understand the golden rule. I really think that the A is an addiction because we're animals/humans and we can be attracted to others - that's how we're made to propgate the species, and when we let those instincts which do cause chemical reactions in our brains take control then that's where they get in trouble. How do you think we became attracted to our spouses in the first place?<p>However, we do have minds, and are supposed to take the necessary precautions to prevent this from happening after marriage because then it causes more harm than good.<p>If a WS wants to get out of an A, then they really need to STOP all contact, which will cause withdrawal. I KNOW, because I have been in a relationship like this (before I was married) but WITHDRAWAL was PAINFUL and who would want to purposely go through that? However, the WS has to eventually see the positives outweigh the negatives and then just do it.<p>It does help if their spouse is willing to work on the marriage following the withdrawal and all attempts should be made to get the support of the BS. I mean - do you really think the BS wants to be in a loveless marriage too? Maybe they are waiting for the WS to take the initiative. If not, then at least some rational dialogue can take place between the spouses and they can make a decision in the interest in both parties - a discussion that should have been made, in my opinion, before any A began. Why can't the WS just talk to the BS when they know they are unhappy and chose to either go to counseling or get a D at that point? Then there is no betrayal, no lies etc.<p>Also, there are feelings of loss by both parties about the marriage when a divorce occurs, which both spouses need to work through before moving on to a new relationship - otherwise the spouses are repeating the same marital mistakes with the new party and it's not fair to them or the new person.<p>That's why A's are so bad, because instead of addressing the problem directly, it seems like they don't have the ability to just address the failings of the marriage in an open and truthful way, they have to lie and sneak around. The other spouse at least needs to know there is a problem, then if they choose to ignore it, it's their fault. But at least they are given the choice. <p>My WH won't communicate at all with me about anything. He just wants to leave, without telling me what went wrong, without giving me a chance to fix it, without anything and he's being mean about it. That's just not even nice. I know he is strongly controlled by his present emotions, but how good and pure can those emotions be if he has to lie, reject his family, reject God, and lose everything for these emotions. Something is just not right. <p>Anyway, I can sympathize with the struggles of the WS, but I also beleive that it is their responsibility not to bury their heads in the sand and do all the research on the subject they can, talk to a counselor, minister or priest, read books about the effect on children and on themselves, and try to see what is really going on. When they just want to run away from themselves and hurt everyone in the process, that is what I do not have respect for. <p>Just my very long $0.02. K

Ok, I am feeling adventurous today, so will pillory myself for whatever it is worth dissecting the ws mind (TR are you out there, this is an analysis post).<p>NB...I'm not the "keeper" of anything, but let me tell you how I see The Repentant Spouse:
If you have TURNED AWAY from the OP and are working on your marriage...<p>snl...Ok, I recognized (as did the ow) the A had to end, so it did. <p>NB...OR, if you are **actively** TRYING to turn away from the affair, and feel bad and/or guilty for the pain you've caused your spouse...<p>snl....I do feel bad for the pain to everyone.<p>Then you are REPENTANT or at least ON YOUR WAY...<p>NB...However, if you say things like, "I am sorry for the pain I caused, but I will never regret the affair..." or something along those lines.... YOU ARE NOT REPENTANT.<p>snl...Ok, bump in the road. Regret causing pain, but not regreting loving someone (if that applies) are not mutually exclusive. Love is love, it is supposedly how you got married in the first place, how can one ever regret loving? Now one could regret using, (mostly in the lust sense) and succombing to sexual addition type stuff, or even such things as using an A to get even with a spouse, or make em jealous....these are all reprehensible and regretable behaviours, but loving someone for the right resasons (however we humans do that) does not seem like a regrettable feeling.<p>NB....Clearly, some people (like me) who would do ANYTHING to take back the HORRIFIC PAIN I caused my family and myself are REPENTANT. <p>snl...Now we are into a little bit of personality type differences, no offense cheryl but you seem to be a "dramatic" type person from time to time. I doubt you would do "anything" (would you um.... sacrifice your first born? for example), so that statement is pretty much meaningless, just another way of acknowledgeing you caused pain and are sorry about that. Us analytical types are more focused on why things happen, not that they happened. My primary concern was did I use the ow, was I sincere, were my intentions to care about her as best I could, or was I just in it for me. A tough question to answer of course, requires a lot of soul-searching.... I do not take people (or relationships) lightly, and it is why thinker is so distressed, she knows this, and she knows the ow was not fun and games for me. I pretty much knew my marriage was over if I continued to love someone else, I was not in a fog, I am not now either....not over cause she would throw me out, over cause I could not stay with her and love another....whether I ever saw the ow again or not. You have heard me wonder about all this stuff for months, and one of the things I am pretty sure of is you can only love one person at a time (aside from all the other stuff about what exactly is love in the first place). I also don't think I could have loved another if I was fitted to and in-love with thinker. But in any event, this is all easy to write about, but in practice is very confusing, so I continue to muddle through, the difference is I am applying different standards than I had heretofore in life.<p>NB...Anyone, to me, who still says nicey-nice things about the OP are still in the fog. <p>snl...???????? Heck I say nice things about people whos guts I hate (if they are true), so I am not sure what that meant. Truth is truth, I am not going to think ill of someone without justification, just to manipulate myself.<p>NB....I don't want to think about the OM, and I certainly don't think of him fondly.<p>snl...I assume that means he was not worthy. Many op are, some are not. I have no doubt that I as the om, would be the source of much vituperation (sp?), that does not mean I am a bad person, and I am not. Or if I am, or the ow is, why would our spouses want us anyways?<p>NB...it went against everything I believed in and I hate the person I was during that time. <p>snl....well cheryl, self awareness is a good thing, but hating yourself for something is not much use, and counter-productive to good mental health. Is best just to understand why we do what we do, and take what action we deem appropriate. You are the same person now you were then, we are the same people from birth to death, whoever you are, is what made the A possible, and also is why you will probably never repeat it. <p>NB...Do you hate the person you were when you cheated?<p>snl...No. It is impossible for me to hate myself, I do not think that is a healthy way to live. But I was motivated to do all the work necessary to make sure I understood what happened, that it never happened again, and that the actions I take are the right ones, and I realized I incurred some obligations to various people and I am discharging those as I think appropriate.<p>melody...I don't think you have anything to worry about since you are of the morally neutral crowd and will define your morals according to your own "psychology" [did I get that right?]but here is the dictionary definition for your consideration:<p>snl...No, you didn't get it right. And btw, meant to get back to you about psychology...since you think it is on par with astrology, does that mean you think the harleys developed their behavioural psychology principles by checking the alignment of the planets?<p>dict...1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life <p>snl....Uh, I guess I am repentant, hopefully we all are in the myriad of sins we each do everyday, how about you melody, are you repentant today?<p>dict...2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind <p>snl...Ok, I feel definite regret.

So anyways, don't know where all this leaves me but I will offer my own definition.<p>An unrepentant "person" be they ws, bs, op or whoever....is one who does not care how their actions affect another. Or, says they care (and possibly does a little bit), but takes no specific action to mitigate the injury they caused. In the case of affairs, there are several things happening at once, and we have to also take into account what is happening and why. Frankly I have no real problem with an individual who is in a highly abusive marriage who in the course of reaching out for help becomes emotionally attached to another, is this an EA? Sure, they are no longer focused on the marriage, but what if that is the only way they can find the stength to leave? And who is to say God did not send that person to them? And so forth and so on for example. What about people who do not marry with the intent God requires (as revealed in Scripture re marriage) are they married? Are they sinning against the one they decieved into marriage..... (we have had at least 2 people here who married someone and concealed they were homosexual, or bi-sexual) does the marriage even exist, and if not can one have an affair? This is far from black and white, nor is there a clear cut unambiguous definition for an affair. Is it an affair to have any friend of the oppositie sex? Is it an affair to hug or kiss someone other than your spouse, especially if their motivations for doing so to you are suspect, but you go along with it anyways.<p>Has nothing to do with moral neutrality melody. I derive my morality from the Bible, and it is absolute...but it is not always so clear what it is in a given circumstance either. By some "moral" standards once you get married, that's it for life, blew it, too bad, life sentence. Yet every single "Christian" I have ever asked, will not go so far as to say someone in an abusive marriage must remain married (but the Bible does not give that as grounds for divorce), so I guess we all practive moral neutrality huh? Anyways, I digress, I hope to answer your morality points on the other thread.

quote:
-------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by renee k:
Melody and Z - it was too drastic - downright "mean" and I believe you both know that. Don't run people off of this site for your own fun - that's cruel.
-------------------------------------------------<p>renee,<p>I disagree that it was mean or too drastic. It makes a point. Neither of us said that the OP or the WS are anything like these historical personalities.<p>I am not trying to run anyone off this site for my own fun or for any other reason. I am expressing my beliefs and feelings. They are as valid as yours are. <p>Some of the people we are addressing here are the OP's who have come here and said that all of the BS are sniveling, vengeful, bitter, horrible people who are driving their spouses (WS) away. Now that is a direct, personal attack. That is mean and ugly. The analogy is a figure of speech. There is a very distinct difference.<p>The point that I was trying to make and I believe that Melody was trying to make is that many very hurtful things are excused as people trying to only find happiness. So where is the line drawn? Up to what point is it ok to hurt other's for one's own happiness? My belief is that it is never ok to purposely hurt others for ones own happiness. So now we get down to what is 'on purpose'. There are many who say that the WS and the OP are not doing anything on purpose.. that the affair happens by accident. I do not buy that one for a moment. I've been in enough relationship to know that a chance encounter is an accident but anything beyond a brief (1 minute maybe) encounter is not an accident. Anyone can walk away if THEY SO CHOOSE. Since the WS and the OP do not choose to walk away then their actions are on purpose and the know darn well that they are going to hurt others. <p>What I do not get is why so many OP and WS cannot just say, "Yes, I did things and made choices, on purpose that hurt other people." Then they can say either "I am sorry for having done these things." or they can say "My happiness was worth hurting others for." Honesty is a much easier pill to swallow then all sorts of excuses.<p>Just like the OPs and the OWs, I have done things wrong in my life. I will not insult myself or others by saying that I did them by mistake. I can say that there was a time or two that I did not take someone else's feelings into consideration and hurt them. I am turely sorry for what I did and the hurt I caused. But I will never say that I had no control over my own actions. That is just bunk.<p>If my current H had used such bunk with me we would not still be married. Any one who has been reading my posts here since April knows that I do not hold any guilt over his head or punish him in any way for his affairs. So that is not what I am doing. There is nothing like plane, open honesty.

Confusedmom…<p>I only just now saw this post of yours, <p>RE: I'm wondering if us WS should just go to another website and discuss our pain...it seems to offend others.... and how dare u compare me to HITLER, zorweb!!!!!!!!<p>I did not mean to tie the Hitler analogy closely to you. If I did that then I apologize. <p>What you may not realize is that the comment to painforever and Scarlett <p>“Neither one of you are BAD people, just humans trying to find happiness..…” was VERY HURTFUL to me and to many other BS’s. Your statement essentially gave them atta' boys for their involvement in affairs. I find that offensive.<p>I interpreted as a blanket statement that could be put on my ex-h and my current H. I am very reluctant to label anyone as a ‘bad’ person. But their actions were not ‘good’. Do you really expect me, or any other BS, to be able to say to our WS, ‘Dear I know that you are not a bad person, you are just a human trying to find happiness. Albeit, it was at my expense, but oh well my undeserved pain does not matter. Your happiness is far more important.” I could say…. “how dare you minimize the pain caused by the WS’s and OP’s in my life in such a light handed manner.”<p>I am sorry that you took this personal as I did not intent it that way. What I was saying is that the pursuit of happiness is used to explain all sorts of things. My last post has a longer explanation of where I am coming from. The thing that I find interesting about people’s reaction to this analogy is that it was originally my H’s. He and I have been reading an discussing many of the posts here. He was a BS in his previous two marriages and is the WS in our marriage. So it was a WS who came up with that one… I just included it because I got his point.<p>Repeated from my last post…..<p>The point that I was trying to make … is that many very hurtful things are excused as people trying to only find happiness. So where is the line drawn? Up to what point is it ok to hurt other's for one's own happiness? My belief is that it is never ok to purposely hurt others for ones own happiness. So now we get down to what is 'on purpose'. There are many who say that the WS and the OP are not doing anything on purpose.. that the affair happens by accident. I do not buy that one for a moment. I've been in enough relationship to know that a chance encounter is an accident but anything beyond a brief (1 minute maybe) encounter is not an accident. Anyone can walk away if THEY SO CHOOSE. Since the WS and the OP do not choose to walk away then their actions are on purpose and the know darn well that they are going to hurt others.

I hope that you do stay at this web site, it is important that we all exchange ideas. If you will re-read my post I said some things supportive of you. I can understand, from reading your posts what lead to your affair. I too was a very neglected wife and abused in my previous marriage. I know what that feels like. And if there is ever any reason why I could understand an affair, that is it. There is a point at which a spouse gives up their ‘rights’. I know that many would argue with me but I do believe that. But I also believe that in the final analysis it does not justify an affair. I am not judging you Confusedmom, I am discussing the topic. I would be as harsh on myself about such things.<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong><p>snl...No, you didn't get it right. And btw, meant to get back to you about psychology...since you think it is on par with astrology, does that mean you think the harleys developed their behavioural psychology principles by checking the alignment of the planets?
.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think that psychology is on par with astrology in many aspects in that it is not an exact "science" but a very subjective, ever changing [notice I did not say EVOLVING] discipline. I don't think anyone could make the case that it is an objective, analytical discipline on the same plane as science, medicine or engineering. And I have no idea where the Harley's developed their "behavioural psychology principles." Nor is it to my point.<p> I picked this paragraph out and will go back now and read what you wrote about morals.

Hi snl,<p>Okay, yeah, I'm a DRAMA QUEEN... that much is settled! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess I should have said I would do ALMOST ANYTHING to take back my affair. Obviously, no, I wouldn't give up my first born... but let me tell you this... aside from my children, I would give up almost everything else I can fathom to have NOT HAD AN AFFAIR.<p>I do NOT hate myself now you know. But I will FOREVER carry the TRUTH that I ruined lives.<p>Finally, the OM was not a bad person, per se. I thought I loved him. He said he loved me, and I believed him. ALL OF IT MEANS NOTHING, because it was borne of UGLINESS. Love is NOT love in the way you describe it. The world is full of people who think that they love people outside of their marriage, and it's ALWAYS WRONG. You have to NURTURE love to make it grow. You don't just one day say, "Hmmmm... I love that person" like it's a big surprise!! You know what you're doing when you fall in love with someone outside of your marriage. Period.<p>C'mon, tell me the truth.... you CHOSE to nurture the relationship with the OW to the detriment of your marriage. Then later, when you've both met each other's needs and ooops fell in love, you lament about the poor spouses who never did fit - right? I'VE BEEN THERE. The OM and I had all sorts of talks over the three months we had an affair. The fact that we slept together only once might let you know that it wasn't purely physical -- we spent a lot of time TALKING... and what about? Hmmmm... oh yeah, HOW WE BELONGED TOGETHER and our RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR SIG OTHERS WHO DIDN'T FIT. <p>Sorry snl, don't mean to yell at you... it's just that I've sooooo been there, and I'm telling you... in a few years you'll have made your decision (Lord, I hope you have!) and you'll see... I mean it snl, you'll see...

NB...Finally, the OM was not a bad person, per se. I thought I loved him. He said he loved me, and I believed him. ALL OF IT MEANS NOTHING, because it was borne of UGLINESS. <p>snl....Ah, you drama queens are so um.... Dramatic.<p>Love is love sheryl, it makes no difference where it comes from, and that is what makes for tradjedies, unrequited love. If you wanted to disect the actual nature of love (as I have been doing for last 8 months) you realize early on has nothing to do with your marital status (as harleys readily acknowledge in their LB model). But it is also evolutionarily sound, we (humans) have no mechanism for our biochemistry to know we are "married". Marriage is an artificial construct, and a legal contract, and has absolutely nothing to do with love. In fact as you know, large numbers of marriages are loveless, based on the LB models, and/or feelings..... no matter how you slice it, this om was not marriage material for you, nice guy or not, you found him unworthy, or you would not have let him go (or he let you go, but same reasoning applies). The love is real, or not, for the same reasons any relationship is real or not. What cannot prosper and survive is an affair as a permanent expression of love (IMO) it becomes something else (that is why it has been so interesting following scarlets story). I believe long-term, permanent type affairs are doomed, and are based on ugliness, and in fact I would posit any affair that does not voluntarily end shortly after the participants have love feelings is not really love either, any more than the many marriages that occur (and continue) based on selfishness and using each other.<p>sheryl...Love is NOT love in the way you describe it. The world is full of people who think that they love people outside of their marriage, and it's ALWAYS WRONG. <p>snl...Not sure you fully understand what I think love is. But love itself, is never wrong, it is what you do about it that gets you into difficulty. I do agree though that the dynamics of being married (even in a dead dysfunctional marriage) make ascertaining the real nature of love difficult.....but then that is true also for many other circumstances. For example dependent type people have a difficult time loving right also, so do possesive type controlling people. Actually I have concluded love (intimate love for a mate) as described in the Bible, is difficult to find, it requires an awful lot of honesty and vulnerability, 2 things humans are not very good at.<p>sheryl.....You have to NURTURE love to make it grow. You don't just one day say, "Hmmmm... I love that person" like it's a big surprise!! You know what you're doing when you fall in love with someone outside of your marriage. Period.<p>snl....Yes and no sheryl, and this is a fascinating part of the whole love thing. I am not certain, but I do think one can recognize love very quickly, during intitial contact humans exchange huge volumnes of information, and depending on how aware they are, and how skillful they are at processing this information, you can be in-love very quickly....but it is soooooooo easy to err, or be deceived (either by yourself, or the other) that this is by no means a certainty....so the "nurturing" is really more of a discovery and validation period, re the fitting I speak of....but yes, it is also a period of negotiation to mesh together....and that cannot be done properly in the context of an affair, there are huge forces acting against this happening. I also think that if love is neglected, or not nurtured properly it will suffer, it won't die, it can't die, but you can "lose" it. It is interesting that the geneticists are finding hard evidence for "fitting", that we are actually genetically predisposed to be attracted to particular human beings, and not others...perhaps in the future the arranged marriage model will triumph, we will all be analyzed by a computer, and our "perfect" mate selected accordingly.<p>sheryl...C'mon, tell me the truth.... you CHOSE to nurture the relationship with the OW to the detriment of your marriage. <p>snl....We are back to semantics, but yes I allowed the bonds to form, it was more like I was compelled to let them form. There was a time it could have been stopped, there always is as you know, and commonsense tells us, but there is also a point of psychological no return. As for detriment, that is a situational question, my marriage was essentially dead, there was only the picture, going through the motions, it was only for the kids, my wife had made it clear for several years she intended to divorce me as soon as she got around to it, I believed her. I was the one saying no we shouldn't, wasn't the Christian thing to do, etc. etc. but I had finally given up, and accepted at some future point we would live if not divorced, at least seperate lives. I was very naive sheryl, I really thought marriage was at it's basis about duty, I was so wrong. So yeah, focusing on ow was "detrimental" I suppose, but I was done focusing on the marriage, so it seems moot.<p>sheryl...Then later, when you've both met each other's needs and ooops fell in love, you lament about the poor spouses who never did fit - right?<p>snl...No, I knew we didn't fit for many many years, I just didn't quite understand it, or knew what to do about it. You see sheryl, some couples here talk about how they were blindsided, never knew...ours was not like that, I am not quiet, we did counselling, and I expressed my feelings in detail regularly, and divorce was on the table all of our marriage, she first threatened me with it on our honeymoon. We had a troubled marriage, and it was no secret. Many do have "troubled" marriages it just is not on the table, cause one party is usually submissive, and often one degree or another emotionally abused....or both are serious conflict avoiders, and there is a mutual unspoken policy to sweep problems under the rug. But that was not us.<p>sheryl...I'VE BEEN THERE. The OM and I had all sorts of talks over the three months we had an affair. The fact that we slept together only once might let you know that it wasn't purely physical -- we spent a lot of time TALKING... and what about? Hmmmm... oh yeah, HOW WE BELONGED TOGETHER and our RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR SIG OTHERS WHO DIDN'T FIT. <p>snl.....So why did you dump him sheryl, did you just use him for your self esteem at the time? You really weren't sincere? Maybe you used each other? Happens alot I guess. And obviously you didn't fit david, you left him. And the affairs you both had IMO are good indicators of fit as well. People who fit and are in-love do not have affairs (so the harleys say in their last book falling in love staying in love).
I realize it may be hard to admit you used him, but if you were not walking down a road of bonding, that is what you did, and I can understand why you would feel bad about that. Now don't get mad at me, I mean no ill, we are just doing analysis here, and maybe I do not know anything at all, am just a fog bound, moose worm ridden ws.

I read briefly through this discussion earlier tonight.<p>Yes, both the bs & the ws are (usually) hurting and have many, many emotions to work through. One cannot understand what the other is feeling.<p>However, the big difference is the ws has made a choice which affects others (and themselves) in a life altering way.<p>The bs does not get any input in the matter. To the ws, they are generally irrelevant but are still left to deal with it, usually without any help/assistance/comfort from the one person who freely made the choice & said they would be there for them, no matter what.

I think that psychology is on par with astrology in many aspects in that it is not an exact "science"
Astrology is a science? Because the moon was in the 7th house when I was born I will meet a “special “ person on my 43rd birthday?<p>And I have no idea where the Harley's developed their "behavioural psychology principles.
As Dr Harley, Steve or Jennifer will tell you, MB principles work because they have seen it work over & over, not because of something learned in a psychology class or a paper published in a journal.<p>True, psychology is a very inexact science. However, if you see the same thing happen over & over in the same circumstances, you can say with a high degree of certainty it will happen again given the same circumstances.<p>(sorry to ramble a bit [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mylife:
I think that the WS's are not inherently bad, or that they don't understand the golden rule. <p>In my many years of reacting with, leading, and managing literally hundreds of people -
Myth: There is good in everyone.
Truth: If you think there is good in everyone, then you have not met everyone.

AS my grandmother would say "good giggily wiggily!" Boy has this thread gone in a whole new direction. <p>I have not yet read the new stuff, but I get the feeling that I was compared to hitler somewhere along the line. Good grief! <p>All I can say is this: [this is probably an overly general (and definately scarcastic) statement-but] I get the feeling that SOME BS's here want WS's and OP to come here draped in sack cloth and ash begging for forgiveness. Maybe we shoud get tattoos that say "I repent, I repent, please forgive me!!!"<p>I have been sober in AA for about 8 years. One of the most powerful promises that I learned there was the idea that "...you will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it." And the idea that (despite my past, whatever it may be) I should hold my head high, as children of God are not scraping and servile.<p>Now that is certainly not to say that i'm writing a book called "How to be an alcoholic 101". Or how to be a mistress 101 (although I could). <p>The deal is this: when I knew better, I did better. It is more powerful to make a living ammends (by avoiding inappropriate relationships with MM) than to toss around empty words. It's all in the action! Certainly I could come on here and mourn my OP-hood and talk about what a bad person I am. But I don't feel that way. I think it is MORE powerful and MORE honest to be real with you guys. To say, this is where I have been. And this is why. And with my eyes open I am making different choices.<p>I'm sure that many BS's have never been OP or WS. And God bless you if you haven't. But when did you get so holy that you can judge someone else based on your own path? <p>IMHO saying "WS's and OP are hurting people who made bad choices" is not giving the old atta boy. I think that those words come from a level of recovery and understanding. And isn't it more healing all around to offer loving kindness even to your enemies? <p>Who's signature is it that talks about forgiveness being about setting the prisoner free only to discover that the prisoner was you?<p>It was only when I began to love my enemies that I could really, deeply love myself. In loving myself I saw love in the world and wanted to work hard to maintain that. Maintaning that = ending my EMA. <p>Just One (other) woman's opinion.<p>p.s. in the past month i'm talked 2 wouldbe OW out of beginning EMA's. Or would it be better that I hang my head, talk about my "shame" and attempt to shame other's out of EMA's. NEVER happen! Being shame-based is the reason affairs BEGIN, NOT the reason they end.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
Being shame-based is the reason affairs BEGIN, NOT the reason they end.[/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I respectfully disagree. Having NO shame is the foundation for many bad decisions, adultery being one of them. In fact, what used to be a preventative measure in the past, shame, has deteriorated in our current society. Laying all the emotional baggage aside, no one has provided credible reasons (more like excuses) to rationalize an affair. I'd like to see someone come up with a credible list to justify an affair. Lay aside self absorbtion or a traumatic childhood. I have found that men who participate in affairs are pretty much lame. Wouldn't trust them any further than I could throw them. Same goes for women. So what if emotional/physical needs are not being met? Where do you draw the line for anything that has meaning in life then? If the family has no value, then nothing does.

I don't care what you say, Katie, my affair ended in SHAME.... AS WELL IT SHOULD! I was married, for crying out loud, and I had my part in the ruin of a 20 year marriage... I think there's some shame there, don't you?<p>snl, Listen... I *****thought***** I loved the OM. I did not feel I was using him AT THE TIME. It is only now, in hindsight (where I learn all of my lessons, it seems) that I realize it WAS NOT REAL LOVE. <p>No, David and I did NOT fit, at least not in the way you describe it. But dammit, we were together for 20 years, so "fit" or not, we made it work somehow, through all the ick. There WAS REAL love there. <p>The ONLY reason I left him was because he hurt me too much. Between the myriad OW and the abuse issues (which were lots of little things, never an outright beating)... I simply HIT THE WALL. <p>It makes me so mad when you say our "affairs"... he cheated off and on all throughout the marriage... I had an affair 18 years into the marriage... which was GAWD AWFUL, of course, but I wasn't a serial cheater by any stretch. I realized my MISTAKE and ended it. I didn't help the marriage, that's for sure, but my affair was a cry for help, not a fun diversion. <p>The concept of "using" the OP -- okay, I'll buy that. In the end, I used the OM to make myself feel better. I didn't see it like that AT THE TIME, but now I can see that it is true. <p>Bottom line though -- AFFAIRS ARE WRONG NO MATTER WHAT. I don't care about the LOVE or the NEED or anything else. WRONG!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>
Bottom line though -- AFFAIRS ARE WRONG NO MATTER WHAT. I don't care about the LOVE or the NEED or anything else. WRONG!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No question! I could not agree more!<p>I should restate the coment about shame. I 100% believe that anything begun in anger will end in shame. So it is true that affairs often end in shame. <p>However, if a person is in a tough situation, feeling bad and down. Contemplating an affair, making them feel (or trying to make them feel) ashamed is not the answer. On the back end of an affair. After it's all said and done trying to shame the WS or OP is not the answer. Just my opinion. EMA's are a reaction to something. It's a coping mechanism. Feeling bad, here's a pick me up.<p>Shaming or attempting to shame (I think) drives WS or OP to more destructive behavior. Not away from it. <p>That's all I was trying to say.

Scarlett,<p>RE: I should restate the coment about shame. I 100% believe that anything begun in anger will end in shame. So it is true that affairs often end in shame.
However, if a person is in a tough situation, feeling bad and down. Contemplating an affair, making them feel (or trying to make them feel) ashamed is not the answer. On the back end of an affair. After it's all said and done trying to shame the WS or OP is not the answer. Just my opinion. EMA's are a reaction to something. It's a coping mechanism. Feeling bad, here's a pick me up.
Shaming or attempting to shame (I think) drives WS or OP to more destructive behavior. Not away from it.
That's all I was trying to say.<p>I don’t think you will find anyone here who does not agree with this statement. It’s a shame that you are not listening closely enough to have heard what is being said on this board. Perhaps it serves your needs to think that all BS’s are bitter, trying to lay shame… yada yada yada…..<p>No one here is trying to shame anyone. There is a huge difference in taking responsibility for one’s actions and being shamed. I know that is all I am talking about in my discussions.<p>It is a typical ploy to turn a conversation around and make the speaker look like they are trying to be oppressive (or whatever) so that the reader does not have to listen to the message. If the people arguing against, say Melody and I, were to say I see your point. I can understand where you are coming from then I would take the reaction to our posts differently. But a blanket painting of things as trying to lay shame is a deflection attempt (IHMO). <p>Scarlett, there have been plenty of people here, myself included, who have listened to you and told you that they understand where you are coming from. They do not have to like or dislike it, but they have given you the respect and time of day. Sometimes the BS’s/WS’s/OP’s who argue a different point would like that same respect returned. This discussion has gone down hill as some people are so defensive that they will not and cannot hear what the BS’s are trying to say. It is turning into a huge waste of time.<p>In my previous marriage, I had a husband who said things like “just a human trying to find happiness”, etc etc. Well his pursuit of happiness was a lawn mower to my very existence. He still thinks that his affairs were not wrong, and neither was anything else he did that was abusive and a misuse of my trust and love. <p>I thank God every day that today I am married to a man who may have made some bad choices, but who can stand up like a man and face his daemons. I strive for the same thing for myself. And I thank God every day that we both have had the strength to be loving and supportive of each other through our pain. In the final analysis that is all that matters to me. If my H had expressed the things being expressed here by some (not all) WS’s I would not be with him…. Who needs it.

nb, sorry about the "your" affairs, I was referring to the marriage as it's own distinct entity (and it is, sorta) seperate from the individuals.... certainly your H behaviour was much more the problem.<p>re the love by staying together 20 years, I am not so sure sheryl, as you know my understanding of what love (marital bonding type love) really is pretty specific, and I do not think it is very common. I do think there is plenty of caring love spread around, but I think a lot of marital "love" is really about dependentcy, using each other to meet needs, and other dysfunctional stuff. I don't think staying married for 20 years (been there, done that) equates to in-love at all. In fact, I do not think it is possible to be in-love with a dysfunctional partner (like your H). I think true love is a synergistic phenomena that arises from TWO people with the capability to "functionally" enter a oneflesh union. People with personality disorders cannot do this, nor can you "love" them that way, the bond does not form right. You care about them, and you may even love how it could be, but you cannot be in-love with a dysfunctional partner....nor can you be in-love if you are a dysfunctional person, you will only be able to use someone. But what you can do is forge dependentcy marriages, meet some needs, and have chronic unhappiness, fighting, lack of nurture, but that is not love IMO. If two people are capable, then you get into fitting, if you fit enough the bond will form, in fact you cannot prevent it from forming, and it will never be broken. If you don't fit that well you can (and many do) craft accomodation marriages, contractural needs based cohabitation. Is that love? I don't think so, I think it is just another form of caring, and security, but not for me to say, people can call it whatever they want, and if they are happy with it, that is their business.

Thanks for the apology snl, and I agree that the marriage is an entity (a third person, if you will) to the couple.<p>Okay, so if I say I loved my (now ex)H despite the dysfuntion, then what does that make me? That I felt that we were "oneflesh" and "inlove" despite all the crappola means what?<p>See snl, my marriage to David could have been saved with just a little tweaking (IMO) but David wouldn't tweak. What KILLS me is that NOW (that I'm married to someone else) he says he wishes he'd done the few things I asked (counseling and meds for his depression and getting rid of OW#5)... too little too late OBVIOUSLY. But it makes me mad because it would have taken SO LITTLE... <p>So here I am, remarried to a great guy who obviously DOES FIT, but the LIVES that have been ruined to get here (KIDS, more than anyone else's)... WHAT A SHAME. I would rather have FIXED THE PROBLEMS and avoided this turmoil for EVERYONE. If, in the end, we're all healthy and happy, then more power to us, I guess... but again, at what price did we get here? <p>See, snl, you aren't the only one who thinks and thinks and thinks... and I might add, you create a fair amount of drama by your life with your constant searching as well... <p>When you're all done thinking about this, I hope you can look at yourself in the mirror and like who you see. I am still having some problems along those lines, as you might imagine.