Hasd for me to plan a when ow is on again off again thing... along with all the fogeese wordss of hurtfulness that have been flung at me...<p>It seems when you know Ow is in pic, plan b is in order, if she is out, than plan a?<p>Can someone clarify please- any feedback much appreciated.<p>HONEY

Plan A is often done WHILE the A is ongoing -- and beyond.<p>I know it doesn't seem "fair" and it doesn't feel it either. Plan A is about NO LB's, and working on yourself, thereby making your marriage a safe haven for the WS to return.<p>I have included our General Welcome in my sig line -- and Plan A is outlined there.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

honey, you have to do Plan A first. And part of Plan A is *NOT* lovebusting. If you jump to Plan B right now, the last thing he will have on his mind is your last big LBing blowup this weekend. Plan B would be a RELIEF for him after all that LBing you have been doing. Do you want him to remember you like that? <p>You need to work on yourself, put your best foot forward in order to make him WANT to be with you. Everytime you LB you push him to the OW by making her look attractive. Please get control of your emotions and stick to your Plan A. And quit HELPING the OW with your LBing!

thanks, will stick to plan a, will really try to get book again... OH I will go to the post and put it in word and printit out... I am a good student... this is going to be my challenge.. plan a...

Doesn't Plan A call for no contact between WS and OW/M?
BH

Plan A has just two simple steps(well, maybe not simple). <p>The first is to work on YOURSELF. Be the best YOU that you can be. Often, this includes taking a look at YOUR part in the downfall of your marriage (in few cases, there may not be any guilt to go both ways). Try to identify the parts of YOU that you don't like, that your WS doesn't like, and that you'd like to chage. MAKE THOSE CHANGES, and stick to it.<p>The second is NO LB. Plain and simple, right? Well, as difficult as it sounds, there's pretty much a ZERO tolerance here. The more we LB, the further we push the WS, and the less likely that they'll come home any time soon, if at all.<p>Now, if any of you don't think you can follow these two steps, consider the alternative....DIVORCE. Go out and take a look at the DD board, a quick divorce doesn't make any of the pain and anquish go away ==> for EITHER party.<p>Plan A really has little to nothing to do with the WS. They can be with OP, be alone, or be up a tree, it really DOESN'T MATTER. Plan A = YOU! You're the only one you have control over, and can change.<p>Now, if/when it comes time for Plan B, guess what.... THAT'S ABOUT YOU TOO!!! When/if you reach the point that any further contact is just too painfull, places you in danger of losing the LAST LITTLE BIT of love for WS, then it's time for Plan B. Not to punish THEM, but to preserve YOU. By the time you've reached Plan B, you should have done the best Plan A possible. You should have made yourself the best person possible. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE WS has noticed, and they'll miss you a little bit in Plan B....but that IS NOT the point (just a happy circumstance). You will at least have the peace of mind that you have made yourself the best person you can.<p>Later, if Plan D (divorce) comes into effect, you should have done the absolute best Plan A and Plan B that you can. If so, then your regrets will be minimized because you will have done all that you could to save the marriage and your love for WS, but both have been lost, for better or for worse (sorry, couldn't help it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Every Ws has to ask themselves a question, "Do I love my spouse? Do I want to have our marriage/life/family back? Do I want a BETTER marriage?" If the answers to these questions are YES, then IMHO, the Harley methods are the best avenue back to those goals that I've found.<p>The WS doesn't have to be a passive participant in this struggle, nor can they be actively meddling in the A. They can (and should) actively take part in the plans as noted above.<p>Hope this helps.<p>Kev

BrokenHearted is right. No contact must be established or Dr. Harley calls for plan B. You say you are a good student. Order Dr. Harley's book Surviving an Affair. There are two excellent examples from the Harley's case work in the book. One is a PA (Physical Affair) where the BS (Betrayed Spouse) is trying Plan A, but finally realizes his WS (Wayward Spouse) is secretly continuing the PA. At that point Dr. Harley advises the WS to move to Plan B.<p>This said, MelodyLane has a VERY good point. Don't LB your WS just before moving onto Plan B. Leave your WS with the awareness that you are willing to work on everything that may have made him vulnerable to another's attentions. And don't have any contact during Plan B. That seems to cause the sit on the fence, have my cake and eat it too behavior in WS's. Let him know that he's losing a real solid relationship with a woman who is willing to be the person who Plan A'd for a shadow relationship with an OW (Other Woman). <p>Remember, before the affair he was able to have a whole relationship with you and no OW. He's only been able to sustain an affair with OW with the addition of a real relationship with a WIFE. In other words he needs you to complete his relationship needs with her. He doesn't need her to complete them with you. Let that reality hit him!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by brokenhearted:
<strong>Doesn't Plan A call for no contact between WS and OW/M?
BH</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Plan A is about changing YOURSELF, not changing the WS. Ideally, the WS comes to a point where they stop contact but you can't force that.

Sometimes I wonder if Plan A can work for Texans?? We tend to be a little on the crazy side when scorned! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

I can't seem to get the picture of Plan A that is spoken of on these threads. When I read Harley's explanation:<p>"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands."
AND
"But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work."<p>As I discovered my WS and his inappropriate involvment with OW, I knew I could not live with a third party in our lives. I spent months confronting in a loving way and learning how to survive this with dignity and grace. I also knew that I could not stamp my feet and cry and name call to make our marriage work better. I read and read and read how to keep my sanity in an insane situation. I prayed and prayed and prayed that God would give me the power to do the right thing. I knew that I had to respect WS but I did not have to accept his adultery. I knew I had to make it very clear that his choices were very painful to me but I did it with repsect and desire to understand him and his feelings. WS COULD NOT SEPARATE HIMSELF FROM OW so I forced WS to leave so that I could grow and heal. To even show my concern and love, I went to bargain stores and garage sales to get him what he needed to set up housekeeping when he left. I have become a better person through it all but I WAS NOT BAD BEFORE. I was loving and caring but had a few weaknesses that needed work....work by both of us--most marital problems need both partners to work on them. <p>I believe, in my situation, that my WS has made an inappropriate choice that is damaging to himself and so many others. I do not ignore his shanigans...I don't avoid talking about it but I do respect that he is a thinking and reasoning human being who has choices. I just do not have to be a part of the worst choice of his life-----an A. <p>Doesn't Plan A call for no contact between WS and OW/M? <p>I say yes-----but if you strive to see the end of the A in a caring way, you will grow and be a better person for it and have little or no regrets.<p>TW

Plan A does not begin after there is no-contact, it begins IMMEDIATELY when the betrayed spouse decides they want their marriage to work.<p>Plan A can begin BEFORE there is a d-day.<p>Lovebusting is not part of plan A. There is NO ROOM FOR LOVEBUSTING in plan A, or plan B, or - even plan D. Lovebusting must end IMMEDIATELY.<p>What is a lovebuster? ASK your spouse! They define it!<p>Kevco has some excellent links in his signature.<p>I

thanks again tnt, you are soo kind and sweet, think I may get back to plan a again, but of course it is loads easier when the alien and his ow are not getting along, broke up, etc... Can you believe my H says he broke up with OW to me// his wife? i feel like I married a teenager, but still trying to be nice.. thinking there may be more mature men out there for me...<p>thanks, honey

Dearest Honey:<p>First things first...<p>You don't HAVE to PLAN A if it is too painful for you, or goes against your own personal moral code.<p>Even Harley acknowledges that for some BSs it IS TOO DIFFICULT TO PLAN A FOR EVEN ONE DAY...let alone continuously for months while the WS continues on with the OP.<p>As a starting point, I think it is very helpful to take a good honest look at your marriage relationship prior to your H's affair. For instance, were you a natural PLAN A'er thru out your marriage (a natural giver?)...did you always set your needs aside in order to ensure that your H/family would be happy? --OR, were you disappointed in your life in general...moody, unhappy, demanding (lovebusting towards H), etc? <p>DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU CREATED A LOVING, HAPPY ENVIRONMENT FOR YOUR H PRIOR TO HIS A? Or, WAS YOUR HOME A PLACE OF DISCORD AND FRUSTRATION FOR BOTH OF YOU?<p>In my situation, I KNEW that our home was a loving, happy environment! I knew that my H KNEW what I had to offer to him...what he had at home.<p>I DID NOT PLAN A. I did not see the benefit to it. Now, on the other hand, I can very CLEARLY see WHY a BS would WANT/NEED to Plan A if they were not offering a "safe haven" for their WS prior to the discovery of the A.<p>I guess you could say I went immediatly to PLAN B on d-day. I informed H that he could go and make a life with OW if that was what he wanted, or he could choose to remain in the house with me. BUT, under no circumstances would I HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO PURSUE OW AND STAY IN MY HOME... THAT GOES AGAINST EVERY THING I WAS BROUGHT UP TO BELIEVE IN-- IT GOES AGAINST MY OWN PERSONAL CODE OF ETHICS.<p>I guess I just wanted you to know that you DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING THAT YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE DOING.<p>BTW, my H and I are in a strong, loving recovery. We are 26 months post d-day and continue to blossom together [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Prayers to you and your family! Peace, ~Marie

ohmy_marie,<p>Thanks for this last post of yours. I feel exactly as you do but am very reluctant to suggest this approach to people here as I got hassled when I first came here for doing that. You stated it so clearly, thanks......

I'd like to discuss this a bit...<p>Of course anyone may CHOOSE to do WHATEVER they feel is right for THEIR SITUATION. If it feels ABUSIVE (or the BS is in an ABUSIVE situation) DON'T DO IT.<p>However, we're on Dr. Harley's site, and someone has asked what Plan A is about. If you look at what the Plan is about... it is... WHILE the WS is actively cheating, to woo them back to the marriage and to work on yourself as the BS, so that the marriage is a good, safe place for the WS to return. It FEELS unfair, it FEELS like you're manipulating, it FEELS like you're a doormat, and it FEELS wrong. <p>I've always been confused about Dr. Harley's stance, since he says he'd leave his spouse if she cheated. It sure seems to fly in the face of what he's touting here... but... Plan A has WORKED for many people... and THAT'S WHY THIS SITE IS HERE, right?<p>As a slight aside, someone else wrote this morning on why they think the Plan B letter is bogus. So, the plan for that person is Plan B without a letter. Plan B without a letter is just tough love ...and a wing and a prayer... <p>So, do we follow the "PLANS" to the letter (pun intended) or not?<p>So, honey... do what you feel is right for your situation... and of course stay here and talk to us...<p>If these Plans are not for you, there are so many wonderful sites out there, (like Divorce Busters)... you might look around the net and find a *Plan* that fits your situation better.<p>Best wishes...<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

And one little addition:<p>STAY HERE AND TALK TO US, Honey!! <p>I'm not saying you aren't welcome here, just that the "Plans" may not suit your needs.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

thanks to both of you... I think my plan a is going to have to be some giving understanding, etc. but with clear boundaries... because many of the things my H does due to his alcoholism, and now I find out serial cheating... this is unacceptable to me...<p>I clearly need alanon... for a lot of my issues ,and I am going as often as possible.. today included..<p>I am a big giver.. but with all the HELL i have lived in , and some issues from my childhood and prior relationships... I have exploded, and fought like a tiger when I was put in some situaations, and I know these were major lb's for my spouse.. perhaps if I was calm, and able to deal with all of the alcoholic criseses in a more calm accepting loving way there would not of been serail cheating or turning to another woman... I know I even started putting H down.. things like - you can't take care of yourself..you are irresponsible.. I deserve a better man.. these were all in response to inexcusable crziness that come s from teh alcoholic situation...<p>If he were to grow and recover I know that I can with him.. I would much rather it be me to go through this road with him.. and our kids... than another woman... and he would certainly just be reliving a lot of what has alredy been going on if he did not start to face recovery as well....<p>I am codependent.. a giver beyond all giving, as I know many of us women are... but it is worse when you give to someone who doesn't give back to you and you just fight for it to be right... instead of letting go.. I was going to change him,... make him grow up and be responsible... and I would be damned if he didn't do that for me afer all I lived through.. NOW I am learning more and again... that if I let go and let him be who he is without my pushing him, insisting and trying to teach him or guide him... he can and will be who he is.. and I can decide from there... for now.. I just want to sit back and see who he really is for a while...<p>I need to take care of me... and realize no matter what I cannot fix him, he has to want and need to for himself... and if I matter to him .. I will find out... he says I do... but time will tell.<p>THANKS again HONEY

Kevco, I just reread your post with a calmer mind.. thank you. YOur words are awesome in describing where I need to be. Thank you.<p>HONEY

Dearest Sheryl:<p>I believe I am agreeing with you as to WHAT PLAN A is all about.<p>You say:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> However, we're on Dr. Harley's site, and someone has asked what Plan A is about. If you look at what the Plan is about... it is... WHILE the WS is actively cheating, to woo them back to the marriage and to work on yourself as the BS, so that the marriage is a good, safe place for the WS to return. <hr></blockquote><p>While I said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Even Harley acknowledges that for some BSs it IS TOO DIFFICULT TO PLAN A FOR EVEN ONE DAY...let alone continuously for months while the WS continues on with the OP.<p>And...
Now, on the other hand, I can very CLEARLY see WHY a BS would WANT/NEED to Plan A if they were not offering a "safe haven" for their WS prior to the discovery of the A.
<hr></blockquote><p>The purpose of my post was not to put down Harley's methods: I AGREE WITH THEM. <p>Furthermore, I think a BS who was not accomodating in their marriage (ie:lovebusting, not meeting needs, etc.) should PLAN A. In fact, it's probably their BEST CHANCE at recovering their marriage. But, to say that ALL BS NEED to PLAN A in order to save their marriages is FALSE AND MISLEADING. I firmly believe that in my own personal case it would have done absolutely no good whatsoever.<p>Furthermore, I continually read posts on this website that say a BS HAS TO PLAN A...when even Dr. Harley will agree that for some BSs it is virtually "impossible" for them to do.<p>Even when you go back and look at only the responses on this thread, I think you will see the following:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>honey, you have to do Plan A first
<hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now, if any of you don't think you can follow these two steps, consider the alternative....DIVORCE. <hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>By the time you've reached Plan B, you should have done the best Plan A possible. You should have made yourself the best person possible. <hr></blockquote><p>What about us wives who have been natural givers thru out our marriages and who have homes that are already SAFE HAVENS??? We are OUT THERE-- even if we are in small numbers! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Plan A does not begin after there is no-contact, it begins IMMEDIATELY when the betrayed spouse decides they want their marriage to work. <hr></blockquote><p>I can see where a BS (such as myself) would read these quotes and come away with the feeling that their marriage is doomed if they choose NOT to follow PLAN A....REGARDLESS OF WHO THEY ARE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT TYPE OF MARRIAGE THEY HAD, AND REGARDLESS OF WHAT TYPE OF PERSON THEY ARE MARRIED TO.<p>Some of us BSs are/were married to pompous [censored] who believe they have a right to anything/everything in life (even if it is some other man's wife), as long as it makes them happy and no one knows about it. <p>I was married to such a man (NOTE: I say 'was' because my H has since grown and has seen the error of his selfish ways). My H's A had almost NOTHING to do with how he was being treated by me, his wife, or what he had waiting for him at home.<p>And, yes, maybe my situation is not the 'norm'...but if even just one wife out there HEARS me and relates to me, than I do believe it is important for her to know that she does not have to PLAN A (while her husband stays home AND sleeps with both her/OW) in order for her marriage to survive and flourish. MY MESSAGE IS FOR THIS WOMAN [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] !!!!<p>Moreover, this is why there is that wonderful thing called PLAN B. And, I believe, this is why Dr. Harley states that PLAN A is not possible for some of us, even for just one day [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>As always, wishing us all peace, ~Marie

Jeepers Marie, I agree with you!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know I sound like a "Harley-ite" and believe me, although I DO hold some of the concepts very dear to my heart (like the EN's) I DO NOT agree wholeheartidly (sp?) with all facets of the Plans.<p>Believe me... my Plan A was shoddy at best and my first marriage is OVER, so.... I'm sure not here to say "Follow Me"... however, it is the "black and white" side of me that wants to make sure people understand what Plan A entails, in it's purest sense.<p>So... peace to you too... and thanks for the mini-discussion this morning!