thanx all for your support. I talked to the kids last night, by far the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. Oldest D (the tough one) told me she hates her mom and doesn't want to live with only her, the second/third D's are total wrecks, could barely talk, said they don't think mom can take care of them like I do. S is still to young to understand, but I imagine that in a few days he will begin to figure out that I won't be coming home. So many promises and plans for the future are destroyed because of the selfish actions of one person.<p>This is just so unfair. One day I am at home being a father and the next, WHAM, I am tossed out on the street with nothing because W has managed to manipulate the system in her favor.<p>Today I begin the process of finding a good attorney. My first order of business is to get this bogus restraining order thrown out so I can move back home and then go from there. I do not need something like this on my permanent record, it can have serious consequences further down the road.<p>What is really sad about this is that I would have been willing to move out for a while if W had made some effort to restore the M. But, she refused, mainly I feel because she is still involved with OM. I still believe that this came about becasue I caught them together on New Years Day.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by loveherstill:
<strong>I still believe that this came about becasue I caught them together on New Years Day.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You bet.<p>How dare you disrupt Alice in Wonderland?<p>Unfortunately, it'll get curiouser and curiouser before it gets better.<p>Remember, you are not dealing with a rational person. Even your kids have recognized this. So don't try to reason with her. IMHO, the smartest way for you to interact with her in her state is to interact as little as possible, and when you must, handle her with kid gloves. No LBs, accusations, or disrespectful judgements. This will be hard, but it's vital.<p>Good luck,
WAT

Just wanted to add a little update.<p>W has called me quite a few times over the last few days. She completely broke down a couple of times, telling me what a mistake she made with the restraining order, that no one told her it would be this serious. I asked her who that was, she told me she had been in touch with a womens crises center and they pushed for the restraining order. So I asked her if these people are going to stand behind her and help her out now (like my friends at MB), she said that they wont.<p>Listening to W sobbing like that melted my heart, I do still love her so much, all I wanted to do was reach through the phone and hold her, tell her it is going to be alright. But, I know I can't, I need to distance myself from her, even though it hurts me to see her like that and I want to help her. I told her that for now I am taking a break from the M and trying to make it work, it is now time for me to be me and a father, not a husband. (thanx for that insight Who)<p>I also hired an attorney, says the restraining order shouldn't be a problem to overturn, W even told me she wont fight it. So here I am, doing something I had never in a million years thought I would be doing, but I know that in a way I have been preparing for this. It would not have been as easy to come to this point had I not Plan A'd and stuck with W as long as I had. If there was only some way I could have convinced W to try the MB principals, they work so well for me I know that they could have had a huge impact on W and the M as well. But, that is not for me to worry about.

lhs - your friends will continue to be here for you - and for her when she's ready. This brings me to my point:<p>Don't try to educate her by pointing her to this place yet. If she is really crashing as it has sounded all along, you need to let her continue this process at her own pace. Sure, be there for her when she reaches out, but don't try to hurry the process.<p>So, she got a lot of help from the Women's crisis center? Sure. Allow me to get on my soapbox for a second: where's the Men's crisis center, hmmmmm? Your attorney could probably have a field day with this stuff - not that I recommend it. For the record, I looked for a male version of a crisis center in the height of my depression to no avail.

loveherstill<p>I am speechless. I can see how this could be done. I bet the OM put her up to it and now she is sorry.(tisk, tisk) She needs now to figure out how to correct it. But the fog is very thick.<p>I do hope you are holding up well. Draw support from your family and your MB friends. You have been through he11 and it probally will get a little worse before it gets better. You can do it, you have changed for the better and learned so much.<p>We are here for you.<p>Many prayers for you and your children.<p>
SLH

LHS,<p>Hang in there my friend, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
You are going to come out of this a much better and stronger man, and if your wife does come around which I pray that she does, I believe your marriage will be better and stronger than befor. I know mine is. Its sure a shame we had to go through this first. <p>SH

lhs,<p>You need to pat yourself on the back. It seems you are handling this very well. Think back to how you would have reacted and how stable you would have been a few months ago if this situation happened then. That's how you measure progress and it's all your doing. <p>In my opinion your W was counting on you freaking out. She's trying to push your buttons but it just isn't working like she wants. Stay the course, someday she'll quit fighting and open her eyes. Even if she doesn't you'll be happy with the person you've become.<p>
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
who

All,<p>RE: So, she got a lot of help from the Women's crisis center? Sure. Allow me to get on my soapbox for a second: where's the Men's crisis center, hmmmmm? Your attorney could probably have a field day with this stuff - not that I recommend it. For the record, I looked for a male version of a crisis center in the height of my depression to no avail.<p>First off, any crisis center can only respond to what a person is telling them. If his wife went to them with wild stories, they have to assume the stories are real. They can only advise her on her rights. They cannot push her to do anything. It is a violation of their charter. Most any crisis center is aware that some people make false accusations. The final choice was his wife's. So she alone holds the responsibility for the restraining order. She is now trying to blame someone else because she realizes that she cannot back it up. This is the kind of thing that gives otherwise good organizations a very bad name.<p>As for a "men's crisis center". They do exist. Though as a rule men have not banded together to help each other. Perhaps it's because many men want to solve their problem's themselves. Women tend to seek out support systems. Plus, lets face it, something like 50% of all women are physcially abused by their husbands... the statistic is very high. Also, 50% of all women murdered in this country are murdered by their SO when they try to leave the already abusive relationship. There is no similar statistic for men being murdered by thier female SO's.<p>Most of the time no one outside of the marriage knows it is going on. No one, except my son ever saw my first or my second husband hitting me. My first husband tried to slit my throat with a streight razor... no one was there to see it. In those days there were not crisis centers. The police would ask an abused woman what she did to provoke her H. Then they would tell her to behave herself and leave. Today, a the police are trained to not have this aditude. They are more aware of the seriousness of abuse.<p>Abusers do these things behind closed doors. That is how they get away with it. So women have more of a need for a crisis center.. they need a place to go to save their lives. Let's get real, this is why there are women's crisis centers now. Abuse has to stop and as a society we are a very long way from stopping it.<p>NM used to have a law on their books that a man should beat his wife once a week to keep her humble and make her obay. Wife abuse was once a very accepted part of society.<p>Everytime I hear of one of these organizations being misused, as his wife did, for their own gain I get livid. It just helps those who don't want women to have a support system with their argument... 'see they all just lie about it. yada yada yada'<p>Men are physically abused by their wives at a much lower rate. So there are not as many resouces dedicated to this. I have found however that the Abuse and Crisis centers are becoming more and more aware that this is not a woman's only problem. My youngest brother has a nutcase for a wife.. she has gone as far to repeatedly pull a gun on him and their children. He is a 6ft tall, buffed out guy.But he would never hurt a fly. He is afraid to call the police on her because he is afraid it will be turned around to make him look like the abuser.<p>I called the woman's abuse/crisis center and talked to them about his problems. They were very supportive and gave me the same advise for him as they would for a woman. They were also very sensitive to the issues of how a man feels embarassed that his 5'10", size 6 wife is abusing him. AFter all, he's this big macho guy who could defend himself from Rambo and this little lady is beating on him emotionally and physically. And he cannot do a thing about it. I then put him through to them on a converence call so he could get the support he needed.. in the end, they sent social workers out to the house, they got them couples counseling and they had her to go anger management classes. If he had pushed to file charges, they would have backed him up there too. <p>At the some time, some neighbor of theirs called child protective services because they saw her being violent. So there is a record of her behavior.<p>My hope is that one day these crisis centers will be called 'Crisis and Abuse Center'. Any gender indication and gender bias would be dropped. I have heard that the incidence of women abusing their SO is on the rise.. no suprise when you look at how female infidelity is on the rise too. What a shame that so many women are using the rights so many fought for, for so long, to sink to the lowest common denominator. Goes to show you, neither gender is more moral then the other. Given the opportunity, we are all pretty much alike.<p>Another point about crisis centers for men. In Albuquerque we have a place called "Fathers and Family". It is a wonder resouce for men in crisis. I actually used them when I was getting my divorce because I did not want my ex-h to feel that I was trying to 'steal' our son from him. I asked them how to be a good co-parenter. They were wonderful. It was my ex-h who hated them because he did not like these other men telling him that his son was afraid of him. That the abuse had to stop.<p>There is also a group here of men who support men's and father's rights. I'm sure there is one in your area too. Another brother of mine got counseling from the father's rights group when his ex-wife tried to hide their daughter. <p>The groups exist for men too. A man in the types of situations we see here have as much in resouces available to them as women do. I used to do volunteer work through my church for the abuse and crisis center in the city where my ex-h did his residency. They had turned an old motel into small apartments for a safe house. One or two families were put up in these apartments for up to one year. They also helped the families get back on their feet. The ultimate goal was to reunite the family and iradiate the abuse. There were several men who were there with their children because their wife was the abuser.<p>When I left my second H, I went to an abuse and crisis center. They provided me and my son with free counseling adn free group sessions. The provided this for men and women alike. There was no gender bias. They also provided anger management classes for both men and women. Many of the people (again men and women) in the anger management classes were court ordered to attend. More and more the courts are holding both parties responsible if there is any ambiguilty at all as to who was doing what.<p>Let's not turn this into a male/female fight, OK? Abuse is real. It is a fact that women have always been abused physcally much more then men have. But abuse is abuse. It does not matter who is doing it, it is wrong. It distroys people and families. The resources are out there for both men and women. The organizations have to let people know that they are not gender biased and what services they have available. And people have to reach out and seek support when it is needed. If we do not look for the support, we will not find it. We just need to change the name and focus of these groups from women's to include both genders. These orgs are already doing the work for both. The names are misleading.

loveherstill ,<p>Now that I'm off my soap box (I have no opinions you know [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) ...<p>Just wanted to let you know that I've been praying for you and your family. I know this is hard. You have done what you can and now need to take care of yourself and your kids. It sounds like you realize that and have gained some strength in the last few days. Good for you. Hang in there and keep us posted.

Zorweb,<p>I really liked your post. I didn't know you were from Albuq. I go through there frequently. Used to live there, many years ago.<p>I thought I would had some confusion to the issue of abuse. Just to get people thinking.<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As for a "men's crisis center". They do exist. Though as a rule men have not banded together to help each other. Perhaps it's because many men want to solve their problem's themselves. Women tend to seek out support systems. Plus, lets face it, something like 50% of all women are physcially abused by their husbands... the statistic is very high. Also, 50% of all women murdered in this country are murdered by their SO when they try to leave the already abusive relationship. There is no similar statistic for men being murdered by thier female SO's. <hr></blockquote><p>As you might guess this issue has been discussed a few times here. I went and did some research and found some very interesting data. The apparent (I say apparent because I haven't looked since) most recent data shows that women physically abuse men at a rate equal to or higher than men abuse women. The reporting of this abuse is however, much lower for the reasons you stated.<p>What was also interesting in this report/study was that it was self-reported by women. Even more interesting was that the rates of physical abuse by one partner or another was just as high in the gay and lesbian relationships.<p>As for deaths, interestingly women kill far more men than men kill women with guns. Often done in their bed while H is sleeping. I guess us guys should be the ones for gun control, get it back to hand to hand, we have and advantage there. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously, what I am trying to say is that your statement that these crisis centers ought to be renamed makes a lot of sense. It turns out that the issue of abuse is far more wide spread than many people ever thought.<p>I realize none of this helps LHS. But thought I would offer this information.<p>
LHS:<p>I do hope that tomorrow that your lawyer can get this RSO removed and expunged from your records. You are right it is a very damaging thing and done without any recourse other than fighting it after the fact.<p>How are your children? I hope that they have settled down a bit, and that your conversations with them have helped.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning <p>Boy I would like to see the source for the data you gave. I'd love to see it. This type of thing needs to be publisized more. It does surprise me because I've known few men who have been abused by many women who have been. <p>But... it could be that in today's society the rate of women abusing men is going way up. Just like the crime rate among women, and the adultery rate among women. Like I said, some use of the rights we worked so hard for.<p>I always wonder how they collect the statistics for these things. In my first marriage my h became very abusive after his brain surgery for an interracial aneurisms. It seemed to have caused some brain damage. Then some ‘friends’ of his started giving him speed.. he said it made him feel more normal after the surgery. So he became really ‘off the wall’. There were a couple of times when he gave me black eyes so bad that even my eyeball was black. Then one day he started at me and I lost it. In the past my reaction to any physical stuff was to back off and defuse the situation. I would never fight back. Did not want to escalate it. Well, I lot it that time. I went after him and pounded on him till he was a ball on the floor. Don’t know where I got the strength from to subdue him but I did. Then entire time I as yelling, “So how do you like it? Don’t you ever hit me again?” Now please realize that this was after 3 years of being physically abused, I was finally protecting myself. Well that was the last time he tried to hit me… until a year later when he tried to kill me. That was when I left him for good….<p>So tell me, does the fact that I pounded on him that one time make me a spouse abuser? When is it abuse and when is it self defense? <p>This is why I always tell people that any hitting, pushing or shoving is totally unacceptable. I do not allow it in my home even between the kids. It can escalate too quickly and it is very hard to tell how is the bad/good guy or if both are ‘bad’ guys.

Z,<p>Well, the major article I am talking about was in a series of articles in Newsweek, Time, or U.S. News and Reports. When you have kids in school you get the pleasure of subscribing to many of these things around here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In any event the majority of the issue was addressed to domestic violence, facts, fiction, etc. It was published a few years ago (2-4).<p>As for the death and gun statistics you can get those on the web. I went to a federal agency and looked them up. Probably the justice dept.<p>As I said the one study the interviewed women ( a large sample) and asked about being abused or having abused their H's. The surprising answer was that many women had indeed struck their H's at rates comparable or exceeding the reported male abuse. When males were asked the answers I believe were consistent with the normal statistics.<p>As for your question, when confronted with physical violence, I respond in turn. So I am not a good person to ask. From my standpoint if he was coming at you, it is self-defense. I am not so sure about the "battered W. syndrom" issue.<p>I have a hard time thinking that killing someone in their sleep is very justifiable, but apparently today it is: as long as it is a male that dies. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess as I said that the real surprise was the statements that the level of physical abuse was the same in gay and lesbian relationships. The authors there theorized that violence has more do with who has the upper hand, and who feels they can get away with it.<p>To me the most eye opening thing was that it was not about "males" specifically. I have been in my share of fights, played football, and was in the military and I always assumed that it was just us guys. Although, I will say that the ONLY physical interaction between my W and I was when she hit me once in the arm. Interestingly, she was not really mad at me but someone else.<p>It apparently is a far more complex issue than had previously been thought. <p>Just a question, did your first H ever get help for his situation? It sounds as if it was a bit medically enduced. I truely hope so, although it sounds to me like you made the correct decisions.<p>I wish I could give you better references. I am not sure it matters. My point was that this is more prevasive than most of us ever think.<p>Must go, good night.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL,<p>RE:… "Battered W. syndrome" … I have a hard time thinking that killing someone in their sleep is very justifiable, but apparently today it is: as long as it is a male that dies.
I can understand some of the frustration a person goes through when they have no options and no protection. But today there is too much available for people. I believe that anyone can get out of an abusive situation.<p>When I was going to the abused spouse support group I was amazed at the women who came back week after week saying/doing the same thing. They just could not be moved to do anything. I remember one very pretty lady going on and on about how her H went to work and would not let her and her toddler go out until he got home. He also took her birth control pills away from her. There was a lot of other physical violence going on too. This case was verified by court records. So they center told her that they would give her a place in the battered woman’s shelter. But she could not leave him… WHAT? I cannot deal with that. Even knowing that the syndrome exists, I cannot deal with it. <p>My opinion is that if a person has options to get away from the abuser, and they kill the abuser in their sleep. It is murder. They could have just walked away.<p>I am not surprised that there is just as much abuse between same sex couples. It is about power and control. <p>Maybe one day I’ll search for the info you talk about. Too tired right now. This is a topic that I am very interested in. Well anything to do with family interests me. But I would love to have some current statistics and info at my disposal. <p>RE: Just a question, did your first H ever get help for his situation? It sounds as if it was a bit medically induced. I truly hope so, although it sounds to me like you made the correct decisions.<p>I took him to many places to get him help. He gave it lip service. The time he tried to kill he had walked out of a very tough drug treatment facility. Since he had signed himself in, he could leave. When he walked into our apartment I was packing to go live with his mom. Well it threw him for a loop and he went over the deep end. One of his cousins showed up in the kick of time… so I’m here today. I do think that he was not ‘himself’. He never did really get off the drugs or get any better. He killed himself a few years latter. I still think I did the right thing. He would not cooperate on getting help; he had become dangerous and off the wall. I left when I realized that my life was in danger. I was 24 when I left.. had no clue how to handle it. Could not do any better today.