Time and patience, that's my mantra! I think I have the patience, but I fear I don't have the time.<p>W parents are staying with us this weekend and her M cornered her this evening and basically told her she's going to Hell if she divorces me.... So, needless to say she was more than a little upset.<p>We talked. She's so angry that no one just wants for her to be happy. I know that several of us have told her that (myself included), but I guess what we've meant is that we want her to be happy, but only if it's the right way. I'm not even saying that the right way will be to remain married to me. I explained however that if she leaves our marriage FOR that relationship, that's the wrong way and nobody wants her to be happy that way (or doesn't believe she'll ultimately be happy that way).<p>I told her that if she ultimately needs to divorce me, then that's ok. If she ultimately ends up with OM, then that's ok too. But not if THAT'S the reason she divorces me. I told her that I thought she'd need some time to heal and decide WHAT she wants. Her problem with that is that she's ALREADY mourned us for the last year or more. I told her that that may be the case but that we ARE still married, and as such, have a connection that will cause a wound when severed.<p>She REALLY has a LOT of resentment towards me for MY EA four years ago, and the fact that I didn't tell her. I told her a couple of days ago the reasons that I didn't tell her (in my mind). I thought I was protecting her, I told her that I've seen dozens of men say the same thing and maybe that's how we're wired. She didn't accept that. Tonight I expanded on that. I WAS trying to protect her from the hurt. I figured that it was a mistake that I made and why should she have to suffer for it. I thought that I'd just suffer the guilt of it alone because I deserved it. I didn't realize the changes that that guilt was having in my life and marriage until it was too late. I admitted that I was also afraid to suffer the consequences, afraid of losing her, and afraid of her wrath... but I still maintaned that my main reason was to protect her. She thought that I was previously using the "I did it because I'm a man" thing, not that I really in truly believed that that might be how men handle some things. I take full responsibility for all of my mistakes.<p>I printed a couple of other posts from back in 99-00 that said basically the same thing. If anyone has any insight (maybe spoken to a therapist about this sort of thing), I'd be happy to hear what you've learned about it.<p>She says that she's not sexually attracted to me, and it's no wonder. With all the resentment, anger, disappointment that she holds towards me; plus the fact that I haven't been a decent lover for AT LEAST a year, plus the fact that the new sex has been INCREDIBLE (I'm sure), I wouldn't expect anything else....but I think the main reason is the resentment thing. The brain (as they say) is the largest sex organ. I have tried to reassure her that I don't believe that'll always be the case.<p>I promised her (GUARANTEED HER) that I'll never treat/disrespect/neglect her like I have. She said that I couldn't guarantee her that because I don't know. This hurts me deeply (and I'm a big crybaby). I understand that she can't trust me, but I told her that I love her too much to EVER hurt her like that again, to EVER mistreat her like that again...now that I understand, now that I'm no longer afraid to get the help for depression that I am. Not only that, but she's a stronger woman and wouldn't LET me mistreat her like that.<p>She's explained her "expectations" for ultimately deciding whether or not to "try" in the marriage.... whether or not to commit to trying anyway. It's more along the lines of seeing if we're compatible or not. By the definition she gave me, I think we pass that right now (except for her wanting to be around me, and be intimate with me). She said that she may not even like the changed me, or that I might not like the changed her. I agreed, but I think that that's part of the "rediscovery" in the recovery process. Am I wrong here? I know full well that if she walked into my bedroom tomorrow and made an announcement to "try" in our marriage, that it might not work. We might have just grown in two different directions too far to find each other again. But won't we really only know that if we give it a chance? If we TRY TO FIND EACH OTHER?<p>I know it's only been a week since she moved back in, and I'm a little in energizer mode, but I (and I told her this) feel like we're on a clock (both of us she noted- but I suggested that her clock is nearer to 0), and I'm afraid that she's not going to give this the time that it would need. She may never recover her feelings for me, but she's ABSOLUTELY NEVER going to recover them if OM is still in the picture, right? Isn't that what the whole NO CONTACT is about, the burning of the bridge?<p>I will be ok, and she will be ok, no matter what course we take. But I'm convinced that we'll be MORE ok (and sooner- even thought she'd disagree with that) if we were to at least TRY to put our marriage back together.<p>Sorry I'm rambling...I'm kinda strung out right now.<p>Thanks for "listening."<p>Kev

OK, Kev, listen....you're doing it again. you're RIGHT....you're in "energizer bunny" mode. stop. Take a deeeep breath. Good, hold it. Good. Now, slowleee, breath out, a little at a time....slowleee. Good. Now, do it again. Calm down, boy! You're gonna do fine, but CALM DOWN!!! <p>I want to point out some things to you, so I've quoted each point....this is gonna sound like "arm-chair psycho-babble" so I hope I do OK!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>I told her that if she ultimately needs to divorce me, then that's ok. If she ultimately ends up with OM, then that's ok too. But not if THAT'S the reason she divorces me. <hr></blockquote></strong>
This was very good....just "fog-talk" back at 'em, as Orchid says. Good! Agreeing w/fog ladled WS is very good. Makes 'em think hard. Something they THINK they are doing, but they're really not.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I told her that I thought she'd need some time to heal and decide WHAT she wants. </strong> <hr></blockquote>
Also, very good. BUT, take it easy here. Not too much of this. DON"T start telling her what she needs.... That is what WS hears....."YOU WANT TO THINK FOR ME. YOU WANT TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO."
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>She says that she's not sexually attracted to me, and it's no wonder. With all the resentment, anger, disappointment that she holds towards me; plus the fact that I haven't been a decent lover for AT LEAST a year, plus the fact that the new sex has been INCREDIBLE (I'm sure), I wouldn't expect anything else....but I think the main reason is the resentment thing. <hr></blockquote></strong>
I agree with you for thinking that her resentment about SF w/you has a lot to do with what she feels about your EA. HOWEVER, DO NOT project OM into this. DO NOT make it about HIM at all. Not to her, not in your mind. DO NOT project this here. STAY AWAY!!! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I told her that I love her too much to EVER hurt her like that again, to EVER mistreat her like that again...now that I understand, now that I'm no longer afraid to get the help for depression that I am. Not only that, but she's a stronger woman and wouldn't LET me mistreat her like that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No groveling. Once you've made your point, STOP SAYING IT. She knows you love her.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I know it's only been a week since she moved back in, and I'm a little in energizer mode, but I (and I told her this) feel like we're on a clock...she's ABSOLUTELY NEVER going to recover if OM is still in the picture, right? Isn't that what the whole NO CONTACT is about, the burning of the bridge?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're in no position to "negotiate" NO CONTACT w/OM. Just meet her EN's. You know what they are. IF YOU DON"T.....I would not ask at this point, if she won't offer the info. Just meet the ones you are fairly certain of. While I believe there are waaay more than 10 EN's, the Harley method of id'ing (possible) top 10 makes it easy to zero in somewhat. OK, SF is out. So you only have to work on/find her top 2-3 out of 9!! CAKE!!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I will be ok, and she will be ok, no matter what course we take. But I'm convinced that we'll be MORE ok (and sooner- even though she'd disagree with that) if we were to at least TRY to put our marriage back together.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. BUT - [b] she doesn't want to hear that, doesn't believe it, and quit saing it to her!!!<p>Give yourself a break. you're in a much better "place" than a lot of us, and you're doing fine. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Lighten up on both of you, please?<p>God Bless,<p>[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: lupolady ]</p>

I suppose it's time for a new update, it's been several days since the last. It's been a hard week. W parents stayed with us Friday through Sunday morning, and her mom cornered her and pretty much told her that she's going to Hell if she divorces me, and that she won't find happiness outside of me. I know for a fact that there was a miscommunication there because I've spoken to both of them about what was said and what was heard. W mother MEANT that if W divorces me FOR the other relationship, she'll risk going to Hell for adultery, and that because of her upbringing, her Christian background, her CHARACTER in general, the guilt of what she will have done will cause her to CONTINUE to be unhappy. However, what W heard was that without a doubt, M has passed judgement on her, and she's going to Hell, and there's NO POSSIBILITY that she can be happy without me.<p>This kind of communication problem isn't new to either of us. We've often had fights in the past relating on this shortcoming on both of our parts. I guess that's part of the reason that I have repeated virtually everything I've said to her over the last three months multiple times. But of course, that's a LB, and she often sees it as me saying that she's too stupid to "get it." That's not my intention at all.<p>Saturday, when her parents were gone for the day, W brought up a relationship conversation and eventually ended up SCREAMING at me for several minutes. She's INCREDIBLY angry with me for my affair, for not telling her about it, for not helping myself with my depression, for neglecting her and dying inside, and for the changes that I HAVE made as they might just be too late. I'm sad that anger is the only emotion that she has for me, but at least she does feel something. I have no explanation for my activities over the last four years that even comes CLOSE to being sufficient. I am SO TERRIBLE SORRY for all the hurt I've caused her. All I've asked for and all I hope for is a single chance to make things right. I would like so much to be able to show her that THAT man is not who I'm going to be (I wasn't that man prior to four years ago). I feel in my heart that I CAN be the man that she loves if given that chance, but I know I have to accept the fact that I may never be able to do that.<p>W had a counseling session yesterday and we talked about it last night. This is the third therapist that we've had between us. I only hope she is more competent than the last two. I agree with MOST of what she had to say to W. Not much of it is very encouraging to me, but I agree with it so far as it went. The IC pointed out to W that she probably has some boundary issues (or lack there of). I saw this somewhat before we were married, and had hoped to help with that. I NEVER saw myself taking advantage of those weaknesses, yet I did. I DESPISE myself for that! All I can say is that I DO NOT want to be that kind of man or husband.<p>W was asked for her reasons for moving back home. One of them was out of (for lack of a better word) pity for me. I told her that THAT was not part of the deal for her moving back home. SHE CANNOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MY HAPPINESS (that's actually something that I said that's NEW). Sure she can affect it, but she cannot bear that responsibility. I told her that I DO NOT want her to be here for ME. This decision has to be about HER and her wants/needs.<p>The IC hasn't heard of MB, but she DID suggest NO CONTACT until W can decide what she wants, as well as a period of 6 months or so if we get divorced. I'm glad for that much. She also asked W to rate herself on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being gonna move out and get a divorce, 10 being gonna stay and love me). W said she's probably a 4 and was advised to remain where she is until she's at a 1. Problem is, W is VERY determined that she'll come to SOME decision in relatively short order. I'd hope it was on the order of 6 months, but I would imagine that she has closer to 6 weeks in her mind.<p>I asked her about her winter break (3 weeks away), and told her that I'm going to Florida to just get away for a long weekend. I asked her if she'd like me to buy her a ticket. She was hesitant because she doesn't want to be stuck with a ticket if she's made a final decision to divorce me. I just don't think that's enough time, especially given the degree of hurt I've caused, and the withdrawl.<p>IC asked if W would try harder if OM was not available. She answered that YES, she might try a LITTLE harder. I can't quite understand why she wouldn't give that extra effort now so that she's ABSOLUTELY SURE when she reaches her final decision. But it's not for me to understand.<p>I'm just sad that there is NOTHING that I can do or say that will make ANY difference. I know it's HER decision, but it affects me and it's just not easy to swallow that I have no input.<p>Kev

Kev-
It sounds really more positive overall than it probably seems to you. I just wanted to make one comment about a conversation you were posting about regarding your EA of 4 years ago. The thing about "I didn't tell you primarily because I was PROTECTING you" is crap. I know because I lived that way for years.
My maritial issues didn't have to do with affairs, but I was great at hiding other stuff from my husband (mostly money related) and telling him only what I wanted him to hear. He hated to discuss the financial situation and I desperately wanted to smooth things over and present the best picture. I told myself that as long as I was the only one suffering, I could handle it. Why should he suffer too?
Well, treating him that way was the ultimate in disrespect. And it wasn't to protect him. It was to protect me! And the relationship I so wanted to maintain.
You asked if anyone had any specific input on this from therapy and I DO! This has been a very big issue in my individual therapy that has been ongoing for 19 months. Truly accepting responsibility for my choices means I must be willing to be open and honest about what those choices are. Even the ones I am ashamed of.
To me the first thing you should say when she talks about her anger is "your right to feel that way". Don't offer defenses or explanations - she doesn't want to hear it. Just smile and nod. <p>In general men think when women bring up an issue they are asking for a solution - 'please fix this for me'. Most of the time we just want to be heard. Just commiserate. Just say, yes, I understand. <p>Then SHOW HER how you have changed. The damage may be more than she is willing or able to overcome. It was in my case. But, all you can do is all you can do.<p>And I would buy one ticket to Florida. Remind her in a week or two that you are going and would love for her to join you - but don't push her. Gently tell her she can let you know by such and such date and then don't bring it up again.<p>Wish you the best.

Wiffle,<p>I can appreciate your perspective on the "protection" thing...it's much the same as my W's view of it. She asked her IC about it and she too, was perplexed. All I can say is that I've seen those very words spoken here time and again, and that's REALLY WHAT I FELT!<p>As for taking responsibility for things... ABSOLUTELY! I know that I was ALSO afraid of losing her, that I didn't want to 'fess up, and of the anger that she'd direct in my direction. I don't deny any of those things, but I ALSO felt that I was protecting her from this terrible thing that I had done.<p>She has EVERY RIGHT to be furious with me, to feel like the last four years have been a big lie. They haven't- I've truly loved her- but they ARE tainted in her mind and that's valid. I have no intention of running away from any of my responsibility in any of this, and I realize that it may have already cost me my marriage. <p>Everyone needs to realize that I basically disowned my mother after she left my father for another man nine years ago. I hadn't spoken more than about 5-10 sentences to her in that time. I despised her for her adultery. Now take that and the realization that I'd become the very thing that I hated most in this world, and you can begin to get a picture of my self-loathing. Now place on top of that the fact that their divorce sent my father on a suicidal spiral that would cost him his life last March and understand exactly WHY I became clinically depressed. <p>Now, maybe it's just that I've forgotten exactly what I was thinking back then, or have blocked it, but to the best of my knowledge, THOSE are the reasons I never came clean.<p>Thanks for your input!
Kev