Daisy and Rose Red, I think we're in similar head spaces. I am incredulous at the idea that my H could have loved me while following some sleazy tart up to her hotel room. He told me last night that he actually TOLD TWO OF THEM that he loved his wife BEFORE they had sex! I can only wonder what kind of a response he got. " That's cool", " Yeah, I love my husband, too ", " I speak no English, take off clothes ". What is up with THAT???<p>Yes, the concept of cheating on somewhile while you profess to still love them is just something that was never part of the equation to me. I suppose as a Sexual Addict? Maybe that's why I want so much to pin that label on my H. <p>Happiness as an emotion, has really changed, hasn't it? It's so elusive now, I don't feel like I'll ever see it again. I have had some great days over the holidays and since, each and every one of them had that dark shadow lurking overhead. "Your husband loved you and did this to you... he loves you now, he could do it again..." <p>RR, I guess plan A is a good way to try and recapture some of what was lost, to dissipate some of the resentment. I'm just not in a place where I could do it effectively. I have asked him to stop saying "I love you" because it only makes me angry. My instinctive response is never "I love you too", it's "then why did you do this?". As for being "in love" with my husband... I don't even know anymore. Haven't felt that since dday, May '00. <p>And, like it or not, my self esteem inched upward when I decided to go it alone. The real irony is in trying to understand how I could still love someone who could be this shallow, this ignorant, this intentionally hurtful. <p>BtDt is right -- it's good to not trust ANYONE, even yourself. But I think that the hole we've found in our souls is perhaps a little God shaped, maybe a little self shaped too. I think that's why so much of plan A is about the BS becoming a better person, separate from the WS. So that you can learn to trust yourself, not do anything foolish or regretful out of self pity, so that so much of your self-esteem isn't reliant on what other people think. <p>MHO.<p>Snow

Daisy37,
Your reasons why you may not be able to resist are exactly how I feel! How wonderful to find out that I am not alone in feeling these things.<p>I'm newly re-registered to the board. I couldn't remember all of my old info. I haven't been here in such a long time. I thought I would be gone forever, but here I am again. <p>My H had a EA about a year ago. He won't do MB with me at all. He said he was sorry and he wants me to forget it. I have been doing better in the last few months, but lately all of the junk is back. One of the things that is gone, I've realized, is the friend my H used to be. I used to be able to go to him with my feelings. Now I cannot do that.<p>Which leads me to the situation in which I find myself. There is a man who e-mails me often and wants to move into an A. I know this is wrong and don't want to get physical at all with him. I do confess that I enjoy the attention, though. My H doesn't give me the attention, affection, friendship, or compliments that I need. I understand all of this very logically. Every day I go home and think that I will e-mail this man the next day and tell him it has to stop. Then I get a note from him and I feel worthwhile again. I feel like someone finds me interesting and attractive. Although, I know that all he cares about is sex. I'm completely aware of the fact that he is not really interested in "me." So, I don't know why I can't make myself do the "right" thing. <p>I don't want my H to go through the pain I went through. I don't want to be divorced. I don't like the stress of this e-mail thing (always afraid that we'll be caught). So how do I make myself not want to talk to this guy?

Dear Snowwhite,<p>I guess us BS`s are supposed to be politically correct and say "Okay I totally forgive you, this is all in the past and I am going to love and trust you like before" I can fully understand why a WS needs to hear, needs to believe this but quite frankly I think the majority of BS`s whether they are willing to admit it to their partners or even admit it to ourselves will for the rest of their lives be prone to an A of their own. <p>If my H had never done this he NEVER would have to be worried about my fidelity. I put up with alot from him over the years and still stayed faithful. It never crossed my mind to go out and find a lover of my own. Now it does. <p>After my 1st H`s A I did take the morally superior high ground. "that`s him , not me, I am better than that" I can`t do that now. Maybe it was easy for me take the high ground because I divorced him. I started off marriage number two with a clean slate. <p>Yesterday H and I went scouting for a gym for him to work on his back injury. In one of the gyms there was a very good looking trainer. While my H was speaking with the receptionist the hunky trainer was giving me the eye. My H and I asked about joining as a couple, I figured that it would be my chance to work off my baby bearing paunch. We asked if they had day care their for our kids but they don`t. As soon as we left my H says to me "boy that trainer must think you`re hot" I asked him why he thought that. He said "While I was talking to the receptionist he was watching you, he couldn`t take his eyes off of you as you were checking out the gym" OOOOkay.<p>So then I ask my H what would we do with the kids if we trained together. He said that he would watch them for a couple of hours while I trained and then I could watch them for a couple of hours while he trained. So we would each be training alone. Bad idea. For all I know they guy could have kept looking at me cause I reminded him of his mother. Who knows. An alarm bell went off in my head though. I won`t be joining my H at the gym.<p>Because of my H`s cheating I will have to be forevermore on my guard. It`s actually very sad. H will have to keep an eye on me and I will have to keep an eye on myself. Forever.

SWJP -- I'm not Daisy, but I'm around and this IS a public forum, so can I step in? You are still married, and having gone through what you've already gone through... well, you know the drill. <p>Obviously, your M is in some sort of a "stalled" phase. Look back over some of the recent posts on this thread. You'll see a lot of injured, bewildered people (myself included) wondering how to feel valuable again. And A will not make you feel valuable again -- as the WS's who post here. I know that my H does not make me feel valuable, no matter what he says now. He inflicted too much damage in the past. There have been other men in the past 20 months who have been flirty, attentive, comlementary, a real boost to a womans ego. But you know, that boost is temporary, superficial and at the end of the day, I have to look myself in the mirror and like the woman who is looking back at me. <p>At this point in my life, I honestly feel like NOBODY would have blamed me had I been the one to have the A's (my H was all but invisible -- 5 years he came home to shower, sleep, and tell me to 'get a life'). I don't think anyone I know, myself included, really thinks of me as 'married' anymore. In fact, my friends and some people at work have been wondering why I'm not dating. But as negative as I feel, (with all due respect to other WS's on the forum) I refuse to sink myself THAT low, to become the attention-seeking WS just to a) make myself feel better or b) get back at him or c)because nobody would really care anyway. No matter what happens to your marriage, you will care if you stray. THEN what kind of turmoil will you be in over your current M? Like some of the others have said here, after all we have been through and learned here, even if we know our M will not survive, we owe it to ourselves to stand by our principles. <p>Off my soap box now. Thank you. <p>Snow

Dear SWJP,<p>It sounds to me like you are already in an A, an EA. <p>I cannot blame you one bit. But if you do not want to be divorced then you will have to end it. I know it doesn`t jibe with this particualr thread but the point of my thread was not to condone BS`s turning WS`s, just to explore the distinct possibility of it actually happening. <p>If you were to tell me that both you and your OP wanted to be together then I would not be able to find a reason for you to stay in your marriage considering what your own H did. But you WANT to stay married. I think it`s pretty clear what you must do.

There is one more thing about this whole situation that bothers me, I will never again be able to flirt. I am a people person and I love a little fun. A little bit of flirting always used to get my juices flowing and H would reap the benefits. I can`t do that anymore. Whenever a man flirts with me now I do a deep freeze. One of life`s little pleasures gone forever.

Sorry I stepped in, Daisy. And I KNOW the 10-years-younger feeling you get when you're being checked out. I was our with my boss (F) after work for a nightcap and we were joined at the bar by a really, really attractive man. Few years older, real hottie, nice suit... and he was staying at the hotel whose bar we were drinking at (only place open at that hour). He never took his eyes off me, kept saying things like, "you are INCREDIBLE", and my boss just egged him on... "Yes she is, why you know what great things Snowwhite is doing at work... with her kids... for her friends... she's an artist you know..." It was almost like a set up. This guy never stopped smiling at me, bought all the drinks and then sure enough, asked me to "Take some time for myself, you know, live a little, cut loose, come up to my room for a nightcap...I really want to get to know you better" <p>Big sigh. I would have too. My boss, standing near the doorway kept cocking her head in his direction, mouthing "say yes, say yes, go, go". It would have been a nice bandaid. But I'm so shattered on the inside, yet fortunately (?) aware of that fact. I knew that I would feel great that night, yet like s**t for the rest of my life because of it. And who knows, we might have made it up to his room and he could have told me how much he loves his wife... <p>I need to fix me long term. H can not make me happy. Sexy, persuasive OM cannot make me happy. I think we have to stop looking there and look a little deeper inside. Corny, I know, and oh-so-Oprah. But true, I think. And THEN we can start checking out our H's or if D'd, other guys.<p>And I hear you about the flirting thing, Daisy. I never took my own flirting as a red flag. I mean, I'd even flirt with gay guys (it's just innocent fun, isn't it?) and no I never got slapped. But I never took it seriously either. NOW it's a whole other thing.
Snow<p>[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</p>

Dear Snowwhite,<p>Yes I know an OM would not be a magic cure all that`s why I haven`t already gone out and had an A of my own. Besides as I said before I have lost all faith in humankind and my own judgement. Chances are that OM would end up cheating on me too and them I`d have THREE to deal with. Not a very inviting prospect. <p>I jusy keep hoping that I will never run into a man who knows all the right moves and says all the right words because if he does ever pop up I will be done for. I`ll get sucked in again. I guess deep down in my heart I still wish for a faithful man. I`ll never have him though.<p>You know my H keeps insisting that just because he had a ONS and an EA that that doesn`t make him an adulterer. When he says that I ask him "so how many people do you have to kill to be considered a murderer?"

Snow, I usually don't respond with this quoty-type stuff, but you said several things I wanted to address. Excuse the length here, and any quote errors (of which I'm expecting quite a few).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Snowwhite:
<strong> I can only wonder what kind of a response he got. " That's cool", " Yeah, I love my husband, too ", " I speak no English, take off clothes ". </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Snow, you are cracking me up here! That is so funny!<p><strong>Happiness as an emotion, has really changed, hasn't it? It's so elusive now, I don't feel like I'll ever see it again. I have had some great days over the holidays and since, each and every one of them had that dark shadow lurking overhead. "Your husband loved you and did this to you... he loves you now, he could do it again..." </strong><p>Yes, yes. That shadow follows me around everywhere I go. I guess one reason that affairs look attractive to BS is that for the brief moment that some man is giving me the eye, that shadow is mercifully gone. Otherwise, watching TV, doing housework, meeting new people, doing my Bible study, taking a shower, interacting with my husband and making love, taking care of my children--it's always with me.<p><strong>I have asked him to stop saying "I love you" because it only makes me angry. My instinctive response is never "I love you too", it's "then why did you do this?"</strong><p>There are some things I can't stand for my husband to say either. Lately he's taken to making jokes about being an old man (37 years old), how he's just happy to "get it up" at all any more. This makes me crazy--just a year ago he wasn't having any trouble getting it up for her! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I finally told him so last night, so at least that reminder is probably over.<p><strong>As for being "in love" with my husband... I don't even know anymore. Haven't felt that since dday, May '00. <p>And, like it or not, my self esteem inched upward when I decided to go it alone. The real irony is in trying to understand how I could still love someone who could be this shallow, this ignorant, this intentionally hurtful. </strong><p>What do you mean by this, Snow? How are you "going it alone?" Do you mean that you are in withdrawal, or that you have separated? I think I better re-read some of your old posts.<p>As far as loving someone this shallow, this ignorant, this intentionally hurtful, I completely concur. One thing which helps me a teeny-tiny bit is to realize that Mr. Obtuse is now working in my favor. Remember how I said he doesn't get LB'ed that easily? I think it's because he doesn't internalize anything much. Yes, that made him an idiot when it came to his affair (believed I would "never" find out, so it couldn't possibly hurt me, never stopped "loving" me, blah, blah, blah... :mad [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , but at this point it makes him largely immune to a lot of my angst and agony. I say "immune" because he doesn't get angry and refuse to listen--he listens ad infinitum, as much as I want--but just doesn't take it so personally, even when I ranted to him almost the entire contents of that first very angry post I made on this thread.<p><strong>BtDt is right -- it's good to not trust ANYONE, even yourself. </strong>She probably is right, but that is the dreariest thing I've ever heard. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p><strong>But I think that the hole we've found in our souls is perhaps a little God shaped, maybe a little self shaped too. I think that's why so much of plan A is about the BS becoming a better person, separate from the WS. So that you can learn to trust yourself, not do anything foolish or regretful out of self pity, so that so much of your self-esteem isn't reliant on what other people think. </strong>I guess that is what's behind my Plan A (it isn't a real great one, it's just what I can manage). I want to look back on this and think, "I didn't just lie there permanently, letting misery wash over me continuously. I got up and fought." Of course, I just laid there for a long time, but now I'm trying not to.
[/QUOTE]<p>Rose Red

Daisy, I know just what you mean about flirting. In the regular routine of my Mommy-world, I really don't see very many men. But when I do, I have to fight the urge to be all "shiny-eyed" and flirt. In college I used to be the girl who always had a date--I guess I found some validation in that. Well, it was tough for me when I married because suddenly that source of self-esteem was gone. I felt like nobody. Over time I've gotten used to it, of course, but now that emptiness is back, and far worse than before. The one person who I relied on for reassurance and support turned around and stabbed me in the back.<p>I sound like a mess of self-esteem issues here, don't I? I guess that's true.<p>I'm sorry about that husband not thinking he's an adulterer thing. He must still be in denial-mode. As we do, so we are. What does he think would make him an adulterer? An EA/PA where he leaves you forever?<p>Daisy, I need to thank you for starting this thread. It really made my blood boil, but it is also helping me express somethings and get some junk out of my soul.<p>Rose Red

Oh RR, don't look at those old threads... I've been a wreck since this all started and have barely gotten out of the woods [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yes, we've been separated for almost two years and he has come a long way. I on the other hand, have a lot of growing to do. I have gotten better, but as I've said, only when I am alone and convinced that I can and should and will take charge of my own life. So much of marriage to him seems to be about giving in to him... I don't know. I am NOT a good example of getting on with life, forgiveness, letting go, whatever else you want to call it. I hold grudges (always have) and I expect people to keep their word. <p>Growth? ME??? Not yet. That's why I read so much of this with interest and am so impressed that people like you can feel this same way that I do and STILL stay in Plan A, still stay und the same roof with WS. I want that kind of strength and I don't have it! I know it's painful, I know, I know, I know. I also know that I have 3 children and that my decision to separate based on MY feelings and what I can tolerate may be a bad decision for them. But I just CRUMBLE when he's under my roof. <p>Like I said, past history may have something to do with it. I know that in him, I thought I had at last found someone who might love me enough to not ever hurt me. Now, I no longer believe that such a person exists. I have to love ME enough to make sure that I don't do anything to hurt myself any more. <p>That not being able to trust anyone thing, paranoid and depressing as it is, sheesh -- I think it's true and that is REALLY depressing.
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Snow

Daisy, going back to the original post on this thread... is it kinda creeping you out that H noticed the other guy looking at you... you don't think he's going back to that 3some phase, do you? Or has he really given that idea up? And yes, I do agree that the whole idea in the first place was all about his control over the situation. <p>SNow

Dear Snowwhite,<p>No I don`t think he`s going back to the threesome thing. He hounded me about doing it to the point that I finally said to him "Do you have latent homosexual tendancies or what?" He hasn`t brought it up since. I don`t think he does but I didn`t know what else to say so he would drop it. <p>A large part of my H`s self esteem depends on other men`s opinions of me. He is proud when other men find me attractive. He does do slow burn though when he imagines other men checking me out when he`s not around. Yes it is a control thing.

Snow, OK, won't look at old threads. All mine are like my old diaries--completely embarrassing. I'm not too crazy about looking at them myself.<p>Snow, I don't think I'm doing anything very strong by staying here with my husband. I haven't worked in years, and never really had a career, anyway. I have no idea what I would do, and financial support is right near the top of my EN list. I always envision separating from my husband as requiring me to move out of our nice house and into some sort of apartment in the slums, where I'm afraid for the children to walk outside to get the mail. Bills would pile up and creditors would hound me by phone and come bang on my door in the middle of the night! Things would break and couldn't be fixed (heating, car, etc.,), I couldn't afford to take the children to the doctor if they were sick, I'd fall further into depression and not be able to afford counseling or anti-depressants, the children would cry and be miserable, and we would have to give away the dog (couldn't afford food). I'd be desperate to get a job, but due to poor resume (little work history), no business-like clothes to interview in, and 4-inch wide swath of dark roots running down the middle of my hair, nobody would hire me! Also, for same reason, nobody would ask me out! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] (Whew! I feel better getting all that out!)<p>If I had a job of my own, as I assume you do, I can't be sure I wouldn't have tried a separation, too. Frankly it is only in the last couple of weeks that I have given up considering moving out, even though I'm so worried about that. Yes, I know that my children's needs are my first consideration, but the fact that I feel helpless helps me keep my resolve to stay with husband. I am not trying to get a job now (perhaps a foolish move, or non-move), but have begun a nest egg to help tide me over should the need arise.<p>Also, Snow, our situations are different, even though our feelings are so much the same. My husband has been in full Plan A mode from D-day on out. He is remorseful, kind, loving and willing to listen to me emote for hours on end. If my husband weren't this way, I don't think I could've made myself stay, children or no children, financial support or no. I think you are brave--in fact, I think we're all brave. We didn't ask for this, we just had it forced upon us. As far as I'm concerned, just keeping on living is brave.<p>Rose Red

Daisy, you were dead on the money with that "latent homosexuality" crack! I have to laugh thinking of any husband being silenced with that remark!<p>Rose Red

Daisy and SnowWhite,
Thanks for the replies.<p>I know it's wrong. I have considered the fact that it is probably an EA at this point. I'm probably in denial about that, though. <p>My problem is most likely solved by itself, though. My OM got fired today. We only e-mail at work. I'm nervous about his e-mail system. Here is the kicker that I didn't mention. He is my H's friend. They work together. My H is on leave right now. I just hope he deleted all of his messages before he got fired. He knew he was about to be fired, so I feel like he did. <p>No, I don't even consider the OM a possibility for leaving my marriage. To me it started like a joke, but got a little more serious. I don't condone it. I think my H would leave me if he knew. If I look closely enough, this guy looks almost identical to my H. They act very similarly, also. So, the attention that he gives me fills my EN from my H, I suppose. <p>I'm sorry he lost his job, but he will find another very quickly. His profession is in high demand. I hope that it helps end this stupid flirtation. <p>Thanks!

So basically what I'm hearing is...it wouldn't be your fault if you all ran out and had affairs? That it would be all your WS's fault because you never would have thought of such a thing until they had one?<p>I don't know if that point of view is more laughable, or just plain sad. Laughable that you're still missing the point that an affair would ne a no-excuses, major F-up on anyone's part, especially after counseling and other things have taken place to supposedly strenghten the relationship.<p>Sad because...you obviously haven't forgiven your spouses...and I don't know if you ever will.

Dear Rose Red,<p>My H is also the one who did the sole plan Aing for a very long time. I have had a very hard time giving much thought to what my H needs but I am slowly coming around. <p>All of the changes that I made the physical appearance stuff and the job I did for me. But even that I did not do in the right spirit. It was more along the lines to prepare myself for the eventual divorce, getting my self back into the world and earning some money so that the moment that I DECIDE I want out I am out. Yes I have told my H this. I do want to stay married for now and be a happy with my H as it is possible to be considering all the past.<p>Maybe I didn`t make the changes for the right reasons but they have boosted my self esteem. 80% of the time I am feeling okay now. The knowledge that I can call some shots now in the marriage has given me some power back. <p>If someone is ever able to come up with an affair blocking memory pill, they will rule the world.

TTF, you obviously aren't reading these posts too carefully. Nobody has mentioned that any theoretical affairs would be the "fault" of the WSes. However, several have mentioned their rejection of the idea of an affair:<p>Daisy--"Whenever a man flirts with me now I do a deep freeze."<p>Snowwhite--"Sexy, persuasive OM cannot make me happy. I think we have to stop looking there and look a little deeper inside."<p>This thread is full of posts from a bunch of broken-hearted people who haven't yet regained their happiness while living an unfaithful spouse. To come in and start judging us is a bit much. WS and OP like to be very judgemental and critical about whether BS have been able to forgive. The whole point of forgiveness is that it isn't deserved. It is a gift of grace, a grace I certainly aspire to, but fall short of lately. A person can't demand a gift--that is just blackmail.<p>Rose Red

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Daisy37:
<strong>All of the changes that I made the physical appearance stuff and the job I did for me. But even that I did not do in the right spirit. It was more along the lines to prepare myself for the eventual divorce, getting my self back into the world and earning some money so that the moment that I DECIDE I want out I am out.<p>Maybe I didn`t make the changes for the right reasons but they have boosted my self esteem. 80% of the time I am feeling okay now. The knowledge that I can call some shots now in the marriage has given me some power back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you about this--I didn't set up that nest egg for fun. It's so I can get out if he ever has another sexual encounter with a woman, or even develops a friendship with a woman. Sounds harsh, right? Well, it was his choice to destroy my trust, and those are the conditions I can live with now, and he wants to live with them.<p>Also, my husband and I are planning on me having some plastic surgery this summer to correct a couple of post-twin pregnancy effects. I hope my husband likes the results, but this also makes me more confident about being divorced one day, should that come up. I don't plan on leaving him anymore, but if he can't keep his pants zipped, I'll be better prepared.<p>Rose Red