Dear TTF,<p>I KNOW the thought of an A would never have entered my mind if my second H hadn`t cheated. Twice this has happened to me. The WS`s want us to to believe that they love us /have always loved us. This is an alien concept to most BS`s. Now if we are to buy this which in fact we must do inorder to save our marriages and eventually forgive then that means we need to change our defintion of love, right? <p>I understand why a WS would make this argument but in fact they are playing with fire here. If my H can eventually convince me of this then I will feel like my love for him gives me absolutely no protection of having an A of my own.<p>I did not post this thread in order to drum up support of having an A nor to convince other BS`s to do so. If we really wanted to have an A most of us have the justification RIGHT NOW to do so. <p>I am not comfortable with the feeling that one day I may have an A. This was never a part of my upbringing or my ethics/moral code. I wish could banish these thoughts but I can`t. They have taken on a life of their own, others on this thread have expressed the same feelings. <p>I am sure that WS`s do not want to hear this. I haven`t shared my deepest thoughts with my own H about this. It would hinder recovery in our case I think. At the start of recovery when I did express these feelings to my H he`d throw up his hands and say "well then I guess this is all pointless" Maybe it is and maybe it isn`t, only time will tell. I may NEVER act on these feelings but they are still there. Just another nasty by product of an A. He wants me to remain the same person as before his A, someone who would never consider having an A but this whole experience has changed me.<p>As to whether this POV is more laughable or sad, I think it`s terribly sad but it is also healthy. I aknowledge my changes in feelings and defintion of love. I am going out of my way to avoid ANY situations where I might be tempted. I wish my H would have done the same.<p>[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</p>

Dear Rose Red,<p>The post pregnancy effect, you`re talking about the baby bearing paunch? I would love to get rid of that. You don`t see mine while I am dressed but it looks awful while naked. <p>Sounds like we have similar feelings concerning this whole mess and our H`s are both the ones who are doing the plan A`s. How long has it been for you since d-day?

Daisy, the babies-bearing paunch, for me, consists of saggy fat and stretch marks from "down there" to above my navel, and from side to side. When dressed I just look like I have an obvious tummy, but when naked I look dreadful! I had pre-eclampsia with my twins, so I was gaining up to 4 pounds a day of water at the end there. I was stretched beyond belief, and very, very swollen everywhere--legs, arms, hands, face, feet, etc. When I returned to the hospital to see my twins (still in Neonatal Intensive Care) a week later, my obstetric nurses didn't even recognize me!<p>Also, even though I was never able to breast-feed, my breasts obligingly grew larger and droopier. Now I wear a 36DD and look awful! I'll be going for a reduction and lift.<p>And I'm scared to death! My neighbor who has had these same surgeries told me that she didn't even notice the pain from her breasts because her stomach was causing her such agony! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Well, that's more than you ever wanted to know!<p>We are 7 months and 5 days past D-day. This has been absolutely the worst time of my life, but of course, we all live that. Just in the last couple of weeks have I begun to see the light, but I actually went through a good period at about 4-5 months, and then took a bad nosedive for another couple of months. I would love to think that the worst is over, but I'm not holding my breath. My husband travels for a living so we have a constant source of triggers and uncertainty. Fortunately though, we never lived in town with OW, so I've never seen her and probably won't have to.<p>What's your situation?<p>Rose Red

::Laughs::<p>I still can't believe anyone on this board is saying that anyone else is EVER justified in having an affair!<p>I give up...I'll come pester you guys with my questions, but that's the end of my input...it's just never listened to! So be it.

TTF,<p>Hey don't go away. I've been wanting to respond to some of your posts but between having to get a software delivery out to the customer today.. I worked to 9pm the last two days. And my mom being in the hospital time has been short for me.<p>I wanted to 'talk' to you and other here too. This thread is starting to really bother me. Please stick around.

Well all, I've always seen this board as a place for both BS and WS to come to vent, share ideas, vent, share hopes, vent, ask questions, vent, share progress and vent some more. God knows there's a lot to be vented. If I were to unleash every ounce of pain, anger, occasional despair on my WS... heck, I'd never get ANYTHING done. <p>It's why I jumped right in at Rose Reds first response here. I've felt that, I've been there, I understand it and I am certainly in no position to wag a finger and say " bad girl, bad Plan A, you should do better ". Doing better is what we all aspire to anyway, isn't that right? I just wanted her to know that today, I understand. That I've said things just like that, outloud and to myself (possibly frightened a few people on a city-bus once or twice, by saying it outloud, too) I also understand Daisy and where she's coming from. Read some of the other posts on the first few pages here. A lot of people understand where she's coming from, why she would wonder about an A of her own. Heck, he H even condoned it for while! A lot of people agree that that is simply wrong, not an option. <p>That's why we're all so confused, you see. I think I said somewhere here I feel I would have had more reason to have the A's in the first place. No EN's ever being met, no husband at home, no relationship to speak of, just a lot of taking on his part and THEN he decides that he needs to go out and cheat to boot. So why didn't I cheat back then? Because I can't. Because I won't. Because there was a spark still burning in there, in my heart, for him. Because, even though I had opportunities and offers, I just laughed them off, knowing that they were never an option. So why did HE think otherwise? Therein lies my own personal dimay. I thought I married someone who held that belief of marriage being sacred as dearly as I did. I was wrong. <p>No, TTF, I have not forgiven my spouse. But as Rose Red says, that is something to aspire to. The grace, not the expectation (or blackmail) of forgiveness. It makes me sadder still when I notice how much closer I come to forgiveness when I see myself living apart from him. I can forgive him, I know it's possible, but it doesn't mean that I will forgive him and stay married to him. Do I want to? Of course! I'm a Catholic Girl at heart, so I don't know if even with the church's blessing I COULD go on to marry someone else. I wouldn't feel right about it. We have three gorgeous children between us. That they would be better off - emotionally and financially - with both parents under the same roof is hardly a point to be disputed. Until you take into consideration that one parent becomes a jelly-fish when the other is around. <p>Daisy gave us food for thought is all, something to discuss and to stimulate more discussion. That's what happened here. We DO all want a happy marriage, to our spouses, no less! But please don't criticize people simply because they're taking a reality check and planning for a future that might find them alone with children to rear. <p>Snowwhite

TTF and all, <p>RE: “So basically what I'm hearing is...it wouldn't be your fault if you all ran out and had affairs? That it would be all your WS's fault because you never would have thought of such a thing until they had one?”<p>Yes it’s convoluted logic. People are venting here. No one has gone out and had an affair. One of the points of this thread, I believe, is to get the poison out. We need to realize that one of the natural side affects of an affair is that the BS to be hurt very deeply. Hurt to the point of needing to somehow build their self-esteem back up. And that sometimes (apparently most of the time in the population at large) one of the things people try is to have an affair of their own. If we are aware of these feelings, if we work on them through talking, then perhaps people will be able to work them out in a healthier manner. <p>The things people have been saying here about wanting to do something, anything to make themselves feel better, to self medicate, is no more convoluted then the excuses WS’s give for the affairs they have had. I guess it frustrates me that the BS is supposed to be understanding and forgiving of the hurt the lead the WS to choose an affair. But the BS would never, ever be forgiven for making the same choice. There is an element of unfairness in this, is there not? Yes, it would be a major F-up for anyone here on MB to have a secondary affair. But their spouse’s affair was also a major F-up. I would love to think that my H loved me enough to forgive me even if I F’d up that bad. But I don’t ever think it would happen.<p>About two months after d-day, I asked my H how he would react if I had an affair. He said that I’d shown him how to love and that he’d plan A me because he loves me. Recently I asked him the same question. His response was that our marriage would be over. The reason he gives is that our last year has been terrible… we have not only had his affairs to recover from. But we have had some major issues with his children. His 14 year old son is now in a Rehabilition Center for a terrible crime he committed. In addition this same son and his 12 year daughter have been victims of sexual abuse for the last 5 years.. all of this came to light a 2 months after d-day. <p>His ex-wife, the cause of the problems with his children (will not get into this here but it is documented in the investigations that she was instrumental in it all so this is not 2nd wife speak here) is not only trying to have an affair with my H, but is attacking me on all levels and trying to cause trouble with the kids. Two weeks ago my mother had some major strokes. We are over loaded emotionally. So his reasoning is that if one more thing happens he will crack. I agree with him… so would I. <p>But there is a little brat in me who wants to stomp her feet and say, hey what about me? You acted out. Now it’s my turn. I recognize the brat and have told her to behave herself.<p>RE: Sad because...you obviously haven't forgiven your spouses...and I don't know if you ever will.
There is a great difference forgiving someone and healing one’s self. I have forgiven my H. I even understand why he had is affairs. It makes me feel better because I now he did not do this TO ME. He was dealing with his own internal issues in a way that he knows was unhealthy. I love him.<p> He was in pain and I understand his pain. I have watched this man go through hell for the ending of his previous marriage, the horrible things that happened to (and by) his children, and the bad choices he made in having his affairs (and they were cognizant choices he made). He has and is paying dearly for these things. We are working together to heal each other.<p>Yet there is a part of me that wants to scream that this was so unfair. I’d already been through hell in my previous marriage. I was good to my new husband, I loved him. There was nothing more I could do but his chose to have affairs anyway. <p>So now I am seeking a way to heal myself that is non-distructive. I feel very lucky that I can say anything to my H. Though I would never take advantage of that and be cruel to him… he would stop listening to me. I feel very badly for those people here who cannot talk to their spouses. <p>Their marriages are obviously not in a true recovery.. perhaps that’s why there is such anger.<p>I think that it is important for us all to stop a lot of the ranting that has been going on here, step back and analyze it. Going down this path could lead to self-justification of having an affair. I still say that there is no excuse for having an affair. I do not ever want to have one. <p>I do not ever want to hurt STL in that manner. Revenge would only hurt me more and destroy much of what we have. And I know that despite all the ranting here, an affair would NOT help heal that ‘hole’ in my soul.<p>The thing in this entire thread that has hit me is that not one person has been able to give any solid advice on how we can heal ourselves. About the only thing that has been said is what would not work and that somehow having this pain means we have not forgiven. Again, the pain has nothing to do with forgiving. I know that the answer is from within. I know that this is something that I have to do for myself.<p>If I could change the focus of this ranting thread, it would be to change it to follow the path of looking for the solution. How does one finally heal the pain and feel whole again? Does time take care of it?<p>In 1986 I gave birth to still born twins. It was a horrible, painful experience. The pain was with me for a very long time. Over time I forgave fate and God for having done this. I moved on, but the pain as so deep and tangible. But I also know the very day that the pain stopped. It was January 21, 1989. That was the day that the woman at Catholic Social Services handed me a 10 day old baby boy. My adopted son is now 13 years old. <p>From that day forward I can hardly even remember the pain I felt over the loss of the twins. My son did not replace them. But he did heal my heart. That is what I’d like to find… something magic that made me whole again. And I know that doing anything that hurts another person will not make me whole.<p>So come on everyone... how do we do this without becoming the very thing we hate?????

Dear Zorweb,<p>I`ll tell how I will get through this without becoming something I hate, I understand that as a BS I am changed person forever. Thoughts of a A of my own are now in my mind. I stay out of any and all compromising situations.<p>Because I aknowledge my new feelings I have some control over them, what I mean is that I keep enough distance from myself and any potential OM so I will never be tempted. MB teachs that no one is immune from an A. I am not immune from an A, not anymore. Forewarned is forearmed. <p>The reason I posted this was because of my inner turmoil concerning my new thoughts surrounding having an A of my own. I wanted to know how other BS`s thought/ dealt with it. How do THEY feel about being a changed person?<p>I AM NOT contemplaing having an A. I just am not used to being someone who would IMAGINE having an A. Does this make sense?<p>[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</p>

Daisy,<p>Sure does make sense.

Yeah...it does make sense...<p>I guess my point was that, revenge or not, to help self-esteem or not, an affair would be inexcusable.<p>After all of the talking and therapy, especially! It would be a slap in the face if either party had one. An affair shows an unwillingness to face the real issues, you know?

TTF, <p>"It would be a slap in the face if either party had one. An affair shows an unwillingness to face the real issues..."<p>You are right. I think that this is one of the most important lessons for people to learn from the entire sorted mess.<p>I believe that radical honesty is the tool that helps people start facing the real issues.<p>I know that it is impossible for some people to be radically honest with their spouses because the spouses cannot handle honesty. In these cases, if it does not improve over time, perhaps the marriage cannot be maintained.<p>It is now the cornerstone of my marriage. I am blessed to be married to a man who is able to handle it. And I think, in all humbleness, that he is bless with a wife who is very careful to not use radical honesty as an excuse to be hurtful. Through all of this, he and I have worked out a method of communiations that gives us both permission to say anything that is on our minds. My XH was exactly the opposite. I have to tell you that I feel like a bird set free because of this aspect of you rebuilt relationship. Will always be thankful to MB for showing both of us how to do this.