lim,<p>Well the gloves came off last night. W asked me if I gave any thought to our discussion last week about "working out the details ourselves". Things got a little heated, but here's a short version of the blow-by-blow:<p>sd - "What details specifically do you want to discuss?"<p>w - "Selling the house and custody."<p>sd - "There's nothing to work out with custody. You want primary and so do I, and neither of us will back off, so we'll have to go to court." <p>w - "Why do you want custody?"<p>sd - "Because I love my daughter more than anything in the world and I think she can be very happy with me. I don't understand why it's OK for you to want custody, but you begrudge me for wanting it."<p>w - "Don&#8217;t you want to do what's in her best interest?"<p>sd - "Yes. What do you think is in her best interest?"<p>w - "Being with her mother."<p>sd - "Why do you think she's better off with you than me?"<p>w - "Because I'm her mother&#8230;"<p>sd - "Yes, and you're a terrific mother, and I'm a terrific father. I've been an equal part of her life in every way since the day she was born and I spend just as much time with her, if not more, than you do. I have just as much right to want her to be with my as you do. What's in her best interest is finding a way to keep her family together. Short of that, who can say what's best for her. Is she better off with you? Is she better off with me? I don't know. That's for a judge to decide. It's a lose-lose proposition for her either way. What kind if father would I be if I didn't fight for her?"<p>w - "Oh, so fathers who don't fight for custody are bad fathers?"<p>sd - "I'm not saying that. If a woman is a good mother, a stay-at-home-mom and the primary caregiver, the kids should be with the mother. Our situation is different. We both work and you are not the primary caregiver. We share all that responsibility equally. Why should you automatically have primary custody?"<p>w- "Because that's just the way it works."<p>sd - "So I should settle for being a weekend dad?"<p>w - "No. You can see her anytime you want."<p>sd - "Would that be good enough for you?"<p>w - "No."<p>sd - "Then why should it be good enough for me? This isn't what I want. I'd like to find a way to keep our family together, but you wanted this divorce, not me. I think you're pissed because this isn't going the way you planned. You want it to be friendly and amicable, but under the circumstances, I don't see how it can be."<p>Anyway, that was pretty much the gist of it. We got off track and got into to it about OM a little (of course nothing is going on there), blah, blah, blah&#8230; It got pretty heated (no yelling though) and I probably LB'd quite a bit, but it felt good to get some of that angst out. However, I made it clear that I don't want a D, I don't think it's in the best interest of any of us, but I will fight for my daughter. I also told her that she should have her lawyer contact mine regarding any other details.<p>I am really pissed that she thinks she has some divine right to our daughter because she's her mother and that's the way it's supposed to be, as if I'm some secondary figure in our daughter's life. I kind of get the feeling she's really scared she could lose and worried about a legal battle.<p>sad dad<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

I know how that goes - "think of the kids". "Let's at least be friends." But somehow, this only comes up when it coincides with WW's self interest.<p>Are you in plan B? The type of conversation you just described, is the type I'm happy to avoid. Except that I just had one stretched over Monday and Tuesday night this week, and it was no help at all. I think it's best to detach a little and leave this to the lawyers and courts.<p>- Tom

sad dad...<p>(sd - "There's nothing to work out with custody. You want primary and so do I, and neither of us will back off, so we'll have to go to court.") from your post!<p>This might have been the best place to have ended this discussion...but oh how clear hindsight is. From your posting, do NOT see anything wrong with your discussion. Both of you stated your beliefs and wants fairly clearly. Both of you have every right to want DD as the primary custodial parent. But since you can't "cut her into two pieces", it is best left to the court. No matter how the courts view this, your DD will know that both of you love her and were willing to fight for her. That's not the worst thing that could happen in the breakdown of the marriage. <p>I also think your stand on wanting to keep the marriage together was perfect. Yes, it is what you want, but you realize that sometimes you just can't have what you want and you are planning for that option if it happens. (Yes, with an EMA in the picture, the WW is very likely worried as to how the courts may view her.)<p>Are you doing either plan A or plan B? Either way, it's best to avoid discussions of OM, but I completely understand why sometimes you just can't. So if doing one plan or the other, get back on your feet, dust yourself off and began again. <p>Praying that you find your healing path.

I agree with TMMX's advice to leave anymore discussions about the D to the lawyers, that's what they are paid to do. Let them do the LB-ing, so to speak.<p>You are absolutely right to fight for your parenting rights, and yes, it is a lose-lose situation. Do one comes out unscathed in a D, no one. Personally, the only way a D can be amicable is if one of the parties buckles under and lets the other walk all over them. Stick to your guns on this issue. <p>Seems like W does sound scared, that things are not going as she (and OM?) planned. Hopefully this dose of reality will make her realize everything she is about to give up. IMO- take a step back, stop talking about the D and everything else related to the A, including OM. Distance yourself from W, make yourself unavailable to her, spend time with D and continue improving yourself. I think this will make W a little curious about what you are doing and maybe she will start paying attention to you.<p>Hang in there, just because W is talking D, doesn't mean the M is over.

Tom, wifey, loveherstill, <p>I agree. I kinda got sucked into it, but I don't regret it. I made it clear where I stand regarding my feelings on D and custody.
This was the first time I referred to OM/EA in six months. I didn't want to discuss D or the details and I made that clear. I'll leave further discussions to the lawyers. I've got my hands full dealing with what I'm going through emotionally.<p>I can't plan B as long as we're living together, so I'll just detach a little. <p>sad dad<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Sad Dad,<p>I think what you said to W was great. You told her how you feel and why you want your daughter. Your W for some reason just assumes that since she is the mother that she should receive custody. That's not true. Me personally, there is nothing wrong with letting off a little steam once in a while. What you talked to W about was really justified.<p>A few weeks ago I brought up with my W about my two children on how I want custody. W's reasoning was that that they came out of her womb that she should have them. I said that that does have nothing to do on who was the best parent to raise the children. <p>I do agree that your W did not think it would turn like this over the D. I think she is thinking over what her next move should be. I also agree that you should back off from W and spend time with your child and letting the lawyers decide since both of you have them.<p>Good Luck<p>Dino

HI SD- I am so proud of you for stating your position and letting a little steam off without getting into an all out free for all brawl! That is hard to do believe me I KNOW! When I was in your spot I did LB from time to time but luckily I dont have a bad temper so it was occassional not a steady thing. I am sure your W is starting to feel more uneasy and scared about how her A will affect her getting custody and she deals with this by turning into anger towards you which you would be wise not to add flames to. Keep us posted. lifeismessy

dino,<p>Funny how our W's both think that giving birth to a child gives them some special claim to that child. <p>lim,<p>I wish I hadn't let myself get sucked into that discussion, but it's tough to avoid when it comes to my child. That was the FIRST time I lost my composure since this whole thing started. I think you're right on the money about her turning her anger towards me. I've just got to let roll off my back. She created this situation, not me. Now she's seeing the possible consequences that she never foresaw.<p>sad dad

SD- I remember when my oldest daughter( age 13 at the time) found out we were having marriage trouble. I never told her the extent of it just that there was problems between us.She immediately flunked a test (she is an excellent student) and then worried so much that we would get a divorce even though I said we were just having 'trouble.' I had her call H and she was crying on the phone with him. He immediately turned on me! saying that we should 'leave the kids out of this -they shouldnt be put in the middle!"I calmly replied to him, "Where else would our 3 kids BE but in the middle????" I then promptly hung up and started to cry. Honestly I think alot of his saying stuff like that was the lines OW had used on HIM- she kept telling him how 'being in a loveless marriage was a bad example for the kids!" I told H that it was only loveless from HIS side! I think it took alot of time and reality smacking him squarely in the face before he began to be 'deprogrammed' from OW!!!! lifeismessy

lim,<p>It's funny that someone can say kids won't be affected by D. Regardless of the efforts by both parents to protect them, love them and be integral parts of their lives, the fact is life as they know it is not the same, and at 3-1/2 yrs old my daughter can't possibly comprehend why.<p>I will say, my W and I have done an excellent job of shielding her from all of this, and when she's with both of us, her life is pretty much normal. However, according to my BIL, when my W is at family functions with her (w/o me), my daughter seems out of sorts. Daddy's not there.<p>Unfortunately, her life is in for some drastic changes. She'll be split between two new homes, neither of them familiar to her, she'll likely have to go to a different day care, and most importantly, she won't see mommy and daddy everyday. I can't imagine what that's going to do to her all at one time. I pray each night for her.<p>sad dad

SD-<p>Sounds like you are the one with her best interests at heart. I think your W is in for a big surprise if she thinks the courts still favor the mother in a custody battle if both parents work full time and the caregiving is equal. My situation is similiar to yours except my daughters are older (16 & 10) and have already asked me to file for custody if my wife decides to file. Because of the oldest one's age, this almost certainly means that they would go with me. Like you, I don't want this. I don't think my W would file for a D right now because of this and because she doesn't know if I would inform her company of the A she is having with her supervisor. These WS want us to mutally agree on a "friendly" divorce.<p>I don't see anything wrong in the discussion you had with your wife, either. I haven't gotten to that point yet myself, but feel it coming soon. You weren't trying to staighten her out. You were just being honest and telling her what you wanted and believed in. I hope I can handle it in a similiar way if and when the time comes. <p> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

SD,<p>Fight for your family's rights. No mother is 100% guaranteed to have custody. The scales used to be tipped that way but not as much any more. Especially when you can prove what you said. Make sure you can. <p>1. The A.
2. Her working vs shared time with daughter before
the D.
3. Family testimony (in writing would be good).
4. If you child has shown stress or can be put
in counseling to show problems related to
W's actions.
5. Keep you journal.<p>Take Care,
L.

Sad Dad I am a divorced father of two daughters,ages 10 and 13,with full custody of both. <p>I too went thru a custody fight with my xW(WS) in which my lawyer presented proof of my xW's A to a woman judge that sided with me as the better fit parent. My xW pays CS on a timely basis and I have set up two college trust funds for our daughters with all the money from xW CS. XW is very satisfied because she knows I am not misusing her hard earned money because every dollar and cent is accounted (and accesible for her viewing) for and because our daughters constantly thank her.<p>I found my attorney thru an attorney reference list of a father's rights organization. The interesting thing is that my attorney was a married woman that had a passion for fighting for the BS, male or female, in winning full custody. <p>She told me that in her book, WS's not only betrayed their spouses but more importantly their children with their selfish behavior and are thus not fit to have sole custody of their children. I totally concur with her POV.<p>You are right in fighting for your daughter's best interest, which in this case means being her sole custodial parent.<p>Good luck.<p>Joe<p>[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]<p>[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

bump<p>[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

alwayshopeful, orchid, joe,<p>Thanks for your encouragement and advice. I really think my W is scared. The details of her EA shouldn't have any bearing on custody, I guess that depends on the judge, but they certainly don't cast a favorable light on her. If she has been forthcoming with her lawyer, I suspect he advised her to try to settle this ourselves to avoid any of the details getting on the record.<p>Also, I rec'd a letter from my lawyer a few weeks ago in which my W threatened to file criminal charges against me for taping her phone conversations several months ago if I continued to pursue custody. She tried to blackmail me. My lawyer didn't flinch and I'm sure a family court judge will frown upon that tactic. Funny that my W is more concerned with how I heard these conversations than what I heard. I will fight for my daughter because it's my right and because she deserves me to.<p>sad dad

bump

Hi SD=How are you? How was your wkend? Did you and W talk any or did you keep to your separate activities? My birthday was nice on Friday but last night H demanded to see our credit card balances then freaked and made me hand over our credit cards to him. I dont mind that since I know I"ve been over-spending except that he even says he is returning our new comforter and sheet set ( that was my bday present that we shopped for together on Saturday). lifeismessy

lim,<p>First of all, I want to wish you a belated happy birthday!!! I know how tough it is to control the credit card spending, I'm guilty of it too.<p>The weekend was OK. W and I didn't talk about anything. I kept busy and did a lot with my daughter (went to the mall, built a snowman, went sledding, ran some errands, etc). Just keeping busy and leaving W to herself, but being friendly. I went out for a few drinks on Saturday with a buddy. I got home and my W was drinking a beer alone. Not a big deal, but the second time in a couple of weeks she's done that. Hmmm?<p>sad dad

lim,<p>My W told me she spoke to her lawyer and he told her he hadn't rec'd anything from my lawyer regarding changing my request from sole custody to joint custody. I told her I haven't spoken to my lawyer in a few weeks (although last time I talked to her she advised me not to change anything at this time). I guess her logic is why concede anything yet.<p>I spoke to a friend about my discussion with my W last week. He wasn't surprised by the way she's trying to rationalize things (i.e. the "fog"). You know, my W didn't seem to be that "foggy" until things began not working out as she planned. Funny how that works. <p>Found another empty beer bottle in the trash. It's no big deal, just food for thought.<p>sad dad<p>[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Hi SD- thanks for the bday wishes and encouragement about my having over-spent. I have never gone on so much of a spending bender before- I think it was related to my anger toward H and having to keep all of what he did secret from our 3 kids for their benefit. I am slowly getting moving beyond my post-affair anger phase though now thank goodness.( the last 6 mo was especially full of it). H finished painting our den last night and went to the mens group at Bible church this morning before work- I think the sermon we heard last Sunday had some good effect on him. We are starting with a new therapist in 2 wks so hopefully we can get the money together to pay for that. I am nervous about Valentines day coming up as that was d-day a year ago that morning and I need to think thru how to get thru it this year. I think you are very intuitive to notice how your W is drinking alone and contemplating the consequences of her actions. I did notice my H was not having the fun I imagined sometimes when he was in the fog. He says now it was a very excruciating painful time for him as well as me. H lived in OW's condo for a month alone last March after she took a job transfer to another state ( she did this to try to force him to leave me for good to be with her). She would drive back on some of the wkends to spend time with H but still I am sure that some evenings he ended up sitting in her condo contemplating his future.Especially with children involved it cant be that easy for WS who do care about their kids. My H used to stop by most nights to see our kids on his way home from work during that time.He was still wearing his wedding ring and I would let him eat dinner with us and try to hug him before he left but other than that I tried not to pressure him or question him as it just led to pain for me and he was so confused. lifeismessy