I've had this discussion with my WW more than once, in the early days after D-day. Also had it with OM on Internet chat. Haven't gone near it with a 10 foot pole since. But bring it up here for discussion.<p>WW answer : God is a God of forgiveness and, just supposing I D you and end up marrying OM, God can forgive what we have done and can bless our marriage. If not, then you'd have to say our A was an unforgivable sin, which isn't Biblical.<p>OM answer: If you (me) think our relationship can't be blessed, what makes you think your abusive, controlling, loveless marriage was blessed? God can bless whatever He chooses to bless.<p>MY answer: God does not reward sin. Sin has consequences for the sinner. The Bible is very clear that God hates divorce, and shuns adulterers. A marriage bred out of adultery cannot be blessed.<p>Maybe ultimately, who cares?? But I'd like your insights.

Well I'm not going to get into the whole theological/biblical debate....<p>I would like to argue that forgiveness doesn't logically follow that an action forgiven is blessed. I mean, seriously, if a murderer is forgiven, does that mean his actions are now blessed? Forgiveness doesn't mean the rightness or the wrongness of any behavior is changed...<p>but I'd like to point out that arguing with your wife about the moral aspects of her affair or her betrayal of you will get you absolutely nowhere. It's seen as a disrespectful judgement on your part. <p>It's hard as hell to do, but you need to simply accept that your wife has a moral value system RIGHT NOW that is different from yours.

Thanks Bramble. I have accepted that. That is why I have not brought this up with her since first weeks after D-Day. And, I guess to really be doing sucessful Plan A, maybe I shouldn't even be thinking about it, huh?

I think the main problem with marriage from an affair, is probably that it was based on dishonesty. It will be the two people involved, not God, making such a marriage fail (if it does).<p>From the Christian perspective, assuming that's what applies to the parties involved, God can forgive anything if there is true repentence. Therefore, you often get nowhere talking about sins and vows, with people who are cheating. I've done other things, not specifically cheating, that I hope God would forgive me for. It's arrogant for a human being to think or suggest what God might do with another person.

Did I miss the footnote in the bible that says <p>Thou shall not commit adultry*
*But if you do I'll forgive you so keep on doing it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Boppo57:
<strong><p>WW answer : God is a God of forgiveness and, just supposing I D you and end up marrying OM, God can forgive what we have done and can bless our marriage. If not, then you'd have to say our A was an unforgivable sin, which isn't Biblical.<p>OM answer: If you (me) think our relationship can't be blessed, what makes you think your abusive, controlling, loveless marriage was blessed? God can bless whatever He chooses to bless.<p>MY answer: God does not reward sin. Sin has consequences for the sinner. The Bible is very clear that God hates divorce, and shuns adulterers. A marriage bred out of adultery cannot be blessed.<p>Maybe ultimately, who cares?? But I'd like your insights.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What your wife and OM seem to be missing is the part where you are granted forgiveness, then you are supposed to "Go forth and sin no more!!!!" That means in order to be forgiven you have to quit doing it! So an adulterer who asks for forgiveness and then runs back to the arms of the OP just negated being forgiven and has to start all over. Also from the passages I've read the bible is pretty clear about adultery being a definite no no, regardless of circumstances (no excuses allowed). But anything is forgivable if you are sorry, ask for forgiveness and then cease the behavior.

Mark 10:11<p>Jesus speaking.....<p>"Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."<p>Pretty clear, don't you think?

Boppo,
IMHO, WS & OP can marry, but, it is a legal/social arrangement, not blessed by God because it was based on sin. The BS could re-marry, because God allows divorce for those whose spouses commit adultery. But the WS remains an adulterer.<p>Even looking at our culture, 2nd marriage fail at a higher rate, I think 65%. Marriages where the relationship was begun as an extramarital affair have something like a 5% success rate after 5 years. And those are the WS who actually left their marriage for the OP, so one could assume that they were in the "soulmate" fantasy, but stats say even that isn't enough to beat the divorce rate.

mth..Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.<p>snl...Yes pretty clear, but<p>A. How do we know if we are truly married (spiritually....and vows are NOT the answer, humans don't make this determination,God does), or only married legally...contractual cohabitation in other words. In which case we are living in sin with our "spouse" allready...and no I do not believe God sanctions every marriage, just cause we say we are married....likewise I believe their are lots of legally unmarried people who are married in God's eyes. Consider this, 2 youngsters (say 17yo) run away together, and pledge their committment to each other, are they married? What if they have not had sex, can you be platonically married?<p>B. Suppose all this is true, and it is adultery, what then? We all sin, all the time. So what do we do? Remain celibate for rest of our lives, what if you are 20 yo, your H beats you and you leave him....your life is over, can never marry again, cause is adultery, for one small mistake, maling a vow you shouldn't have? I think we have far to simplistic and ridgid notion of what marriage is and when you are (or aren't) a spiritual spouse.<p>Boppo, what are the consequences for your marital sins (assuming you weren't the perfect H), could a consequence be losing your "wife"?

lor...IMHO, WS & OP can marry, but, it is a legal/social arrangement, not blessed by God because it was based on sin. <p>snl...Then everytthing is based on sin, that is nonsensical. We are imperfect, everything we do (including marrying in the first place) has a sinful component. IMO God "blesses" the marriage He chose for us, and that is the only one, and when we are in it, we don't leave it. The divorce rate could be a reflection of our awful sinful natures, or it could be a reflection of the fact most of us are not in the marriages God intended for us, and the resultant consequence is conflict and divorce. In any event, God moves in mysterious ways, and can (and does IMO) remove people from marriages, and may very well place them in others.....while 2nd marriages may have a higher failure rate, there are many which are very nurturing, and healthy.... IMO the higher divorce rate for 2nds is more a reflection of the self-filtering effect of people who are not marriage material. Making the pool of divorced people have a higher % of dysfunctional people.<p>lor...The BS could re-marry, because God allows divorce for those whose spouses commit adultery. But the WS remains an adulterer.<p>snl...Not according to doctrine (as some interpret it), the bs cannot remarry.

There is a story in the Bible about someone God loved very much - David. David had an affair with someone else's wife. God didn't bless the marriage - but when he had repented - God did forgive. There were consequences.<p>The Bible is pretty clear - the wages of sin are death, but we have the free gift of salvation, through His son Jesus.<p>Jesus is pretty clear about adultery, also.<p>Jesus is pretty clear about a man even "looking" at another woman has already committed adultery. Lust.<p>There is no person who has not fallen short of what God commands of us.<p>SNL - sorry, I know we differ here extremely, but in my opinion, you are married, legally, contractually, and spiritually. You are also an adulterer. Plain and simple. Although we sin, we are called to repentence. If you continue to justify your affair because you and your wife no longer fit or maybe never did fit to your liking, that to me is a 180 from what God says in the Bible - and you are unrepentent. God does allow divorce, although he prefers reconcilliation. If you will not repent (turn away from sin, acknowledge your sin, ask for forgiveness, quit justifying your affair) then you are still outside of where God wants you to be. This isn't about anybody except you and God. I'm sorry I sound harsh. This isn't about thinker, or OW. This is between you and God.<p>TNT

SnL - I am experiencing the consequences of my marital sin right now (the pain of my WW's affair). However, I have repented of those marital sins and have been forgiven by God. My faith, I believe, will be rewarded by restoration of my marriage. I do not accept Divorce as an option, or I would not be going thru what I am going thru. I actually spent an entire night in prayer, early on in this nightmare, and God revealed to me very clearly that my Wife is my one heart's desire and I should patiently wait on God to restore her.<p>If you believe in salvation, and the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit, which I do, then you have to believe that unrepentant sin will ultimately destroy the saved sinner, both physically and mentally ( see PS 32 and 51), but repentance leads to forgiveness and restoration. I believe my saved wife will ultimately be restored, and I have faith that I will be there for her when she is.<p>If that doesn't happen, I think I might have to question her salvation in the first place (though that is a major no-no).

Hello Snl.
I think the church does acknowledge there IS a time and place for divorce, hence the whole anullment. The bible was written a long time ago and admittedly some things written are for referance and not to be taken as current law.
However that said, I think the adultry part is pretty clear, I dont want to put words in your mouth but I think i remember you saying you acknowledge its wrong. <p>Marriage is an agreement, pledge, pact or trust made in God's eyes (whether or not made in church). If for whatever reason that marriage should not be, the church can allow an anullment. Unfortunately I think it has gotten much too easy for that to be an "out" for people not wanting to WORK on a marriage, at least thats my view do you agree? Well maybe you wont.. anyhoo.<p>Adultry is the severe breaking of several parts of that agreement made to each other. Admittedly like you said SnL many of us BS perhaps have broken parts of our vow's in some ways, through insensitivity or ignorance, but short of abuse cause by one, I think adultry injures the almost every part of the marriage commitment in a greater way. <p>Did that make any sense...? Oh well train of thought jumped the tracks again I guess.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
snl...Yes pretty clear, but<p>A. How do we know if we are truly married<hr></blockquote><p>
Good grief, SnL. Okay ... I'll bite, if you and Thinker are not married, then what are you? And in addition <glancing up above> ... then why are you on a MARRIAGE BUILDERS WEBSITE???<p>Jo<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

boppo...SnL - I am experiencing the consequences of my marital sin right now (the pain of my WW's affair). However, I have repented of those marital sins and have been forgiven by God. My faith, I believe, will be rewarded by restoration of my marriage. <p>snl...Ok, we all believe what we believe, and of course religious arguments never have a definitive outcome, cause no one knows the will fo God, and the more adamant someone is, the more sure I am they are being prideful and self-serving (not refering to you, just a general observation). So just to clarify, I only suggest alternative explantions as food for thought, I may not even agree with what I say, but I recognize a valid argument when I see it. I too once thought all the things you say, and God revealed to me also things, some of those things others would argue with....who is right? Who has more um.... "clear" revelations... I dunno, and I know no one else does either. <p>But what I do observe is people typically (as you have here) put God in a box, and determine what you want is what He will give you....that feels....um.....dangerous to me. God answers prayers, but rarely the way we want him to, and we often miss his answers cause we are focused on what we want. I have yet to see a bs say GOd answered their prayer, and directed them to leave the marriage, they always say God told em to be patient, and He will restore them, if you trust Him. This seems just a wee bit suspicious to me, especially when it rarely happens that way. If it was that simple, every praying bs would be rewarded thusly, so why aren't they? And why do you think you will be? And why do you think you are the answer to your wifes prayers? Isn't that self-serving? anyways, no need to respond, I too have struggled with all this, and God's will, and I am not trying to argue with you, you just asked philosophic questions and I am answering in that spirit. Religious arguments are exhausting, and have no definitive answer, in the end I think everyone chooses the interpretation that supports the outcome they want, and if that helps keep the dark away, and keep us sane, that is probably a good thing.<p>boppo...God revealed to me very clearly that my Wife is my one heart's desire and I should patiently wait on God to restore her.<p>snl....Ya see, this is the sort of thing I wonder about, it is said often, but it is about you boppo....what if you are not your wifes hearts desire...ya know? And what if her revelation is she needs to leave this marriage? Whose God is right? (same God, of course, just making a point). IMO people should be praying about themself, and that prayer should be for discernment, not for an outcome, but for truth, and protection from satans mischief....it gets really creepy when we start asking God to give us somebody IMHO.<p>boppo...If you believe in salvation, and the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit, which I do, then you have to believe that unrepentant sin will ultimately destroy the saved sinner, both physically and mentally ( see PS 32 and 51), but repentance leads to forgiveness and restoration.<p>snl...I agree.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

jo...Good grief, SnL. Okay ... I'll bite, if you and Thinker are not married, then what are you? And in addition <glancing up above> ... then why are you on a MARRIAGE BUILDERS WEBSITE???<p>snl....Trying to figure out what happened, what it means, and what to do about it.....a extremely difficult task as it turns out...<p>If we aren't married, then we need to marry (and do it right this time) or seperate, cause we should not live like this. Now I am talking spiritually here (cause is a religious thread)...secularly we indeed are legally married (essentially an economic contract).

hang...Hello Snl.I think the church does acknowledge there IS a time and place for divorce, hence the whole anullment. <p>snl...And I think that is implied in Scripture as well.<p>hang...I think the adultry part is pretty clear, I dont want to put words in your mouth but I think i remember you saying you acknowledge its wrong.<p>snl..Indeed it is. Clearly a sin, and secularly bad too.<p>hang...Marriage is an agreement, pledge, pact or trust made in God's eyes (whether or not made in church). <p>snl...That's my point, this is not a fact, it is a convienient rationalization. It implies we cannot marry wrong (which would then imply freewill does not exist). It is the first card, the whole house of cards collapses on, when you examine marriage as an absolute. We cannot make God honor our pledges, pacts, vows, etc, if they are not His will for us.<p>hang...If for whatever reason that marriage should not be, the church can allow an anullment.<p>snl...well, actually all the church can do is "help" the decision of the supplicants. It has no more power to annul then it does to marry, only God can marry us (or divorce us for that matter).<p>hang...Unfortunately I think it has gotten much too easy for that to be an "out" for people not wanting to WORK on a marriage, at least thats my view do you agree? Well maybe you wont.. anyhoo.<p>snl...I agree. Like any human usurpation of God's will, it will be abused....next thing ya know, the right size "offering" will facillitate annulment. But all of this is moot, the truth re God's will, and our marital issues, is in our heart, that is where God speaks to us. No wo/man can tell anyone what they should do, or whether they are married or not.<p>hang...Adultry is the severe breaking of several parts of that agreement made to each other. <p>snl..I have thought long and hard on what adultery is and does...I don't post it cause of the volatile nature of the subject, but like everything else it can be understood in detail, what it is, what it is not, and what it means, and why....I also am pretty sure I know (as much as anyone can be sure I guess) why adultery is specified specifically in the Bible, and it makes sense, and I agree with it.<p>hang...Admittedly like you said SnL many of us BS perhaps have broken parts of our vow's in some ways, through insensitivity or ignorance, but short of abuse cause by one, I think adultry injures the almost every part of the marriage commitment in a greater way. <p>snl...I disagree, in function, adultery is nothing but a physical act, simple biology...it is the implications, and consequences that make it significant. I don't see any real difference between adultery and any other neglect of the marriage, nor does God IMO. He does not admonish us not to commit adultery (as equalling love), He instead directs us in very specific ways how we are to love as spouises, and any deviation from that is serious.<p>btw, since it is a religious thread, and the issue is adultery, I will say again (something I rarely do, cause no one really cares anyeays) I am not guilty of Biblical adultery, not in thought or deed. But I am guilty of pornea, and deceit, and a few other things. I kept that boundary on purpose, and reason was religious beliefs.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SnL????<p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good Gravy.... not married... I just don't even want to imagine the outcome of this conversation... NOT MARRIED???? cripes...<p>What the heck do you call 23 years and 4 children??? Nevermind. I really DON'T WANT TO KNOW...<p>Cali

cali...you are an educated and intelligent woman, I know you can appreciate the need to question and verify all underlying assumptions when reaching conclusions. That is all I am doing. When you get to this place in your life, you must go back to the beginning, and verify/question everything you ever believed, thought true, etc. Otherwise the actions you take will be flawed. Much of "restoration" rhetoric is based on an assumption, you are married....when you start looking at that assumption, things get very intersting quickly. 24 years of cohabitation is just 24 years of cohabitation, what if we did not have a marriage license, would we be married? $ kids is simple biology, are you married to anyone you have kids with? What if you cohabitated for 24 years and had no kids, would you be married?<p>The problem is we mix up secular marriage (which is the exisitence of a document), with spiritual marriage, the two have nothing to do with each other....and one can be true and the other not, or both true, or neither true...I am interested in how that works, and what it means.....I appreciate others view such interest as a threat, I am just not put together that way, if something is wrong, then it is wrong, makes no difference how much it distresses me, or upsets my life....truth is truth, it is all there is.

Well, if nothing else the posts of Snl have given me a very good insight into what the fog of rationalization and lack of accountablity is doing to my WW!!!!!<p>snl- the truth re God's will, and our marital issues, is in our heart, that is where God speaks to us. <p>Boppo- There is only one ultimate source of truth. The Word of God. Not our hearts. Not our feelings. Not someone's self-serving interpretations. The bible speaks of the sin of adultery over 25 times.
It is clear what it is, and what it is not. It is the deliberate turning away from the spouse, and the giving of self to another. EP 5:28 "Husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."<p>Would an adulterer do to themself what they've done to their BS??? I think not. Thus, the bible is very clear about this particular sin. It must be acknowledged, it must be repented...any questions?