SNL you are exhausting!!!!!<p>Oopps hit the "add reply" but before I could finish!<p>
snl...How do you know that? But more importantly, how do we decide when it is occuring (so as to justify leaveing a marriage I guess).<p>I know this because God tells us to "love our neighbor as OURSELVES" God wants us to love and value ourselves. When we allow ourselves to be repeatedly abused to the point where it begins to destroy our mind, spirit or body we are not loving ourselves as God has instructed us to do.<p>How do we decide it is occuring? I think the answer to that is pretty obvious. If my H repeatedly hits me, he is physically abusing me. If my H repeatedly tells me I am good for nothing,humiliates me, and arrogantly has no concern or regard for my emotional state then he is abusing me. If my H has repeated emotional or physical affairs he is abusing me. If my H forces sexual acts on me and I am not willing, he is sexually abusing me.<p>snl...If you are saying leaveing a marriage for lustful reasons (of any kind) is wrong, I agree<p>WOW we actually agree on something!
[img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'll be back to finish up in a bit.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
<strong>snl..I am hellbent on ending the unhappiness and misery both thinker and I have lived with far too long.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, fer cryin' out TEARS, S_N_L, WHEN-oh-WHEN will you FIGURE IT OUT?!?!?!?!?<p>YOU are to "Love your W as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it...."<p>Until YOU ARE WILLING to do that....you cannot talk about whether God commands you to "just do it" without regard to your "feelings." Yes, you ARE M to your W for life - it is a committment we made before God. Asheygirl (I think that's the name - sorry) already posted the quote from Eccesiastes which states that God DOES indeed expect us to remain faithful to any vow we made BEFORE GOD, and M certainly fits that bill.<p>In response to Boppo, who first wanted a "simple" answer to a relatively simple question, I totally, completely agree with you, B. There is NO forgiveness for W and OM, if they continue in their sin.....and I think that accounts for the very high D rate for second M's, many as a result of A's. The SIN remains, and MUST be reckoned with eventually.<p>Remember, S_N_L, GOD DOESN'T PAY ALL HIS ACCOUNTS ON OUR TIME TABLE. The wages of sin IS death. Sure, and certain. Just WHEN is His to call.<p>BTW - Boppo, IF God "told" you to continue believing Him for restoration of your M, then NOTHING and NO ONE should be able (nor should you be asking them what they think about it) - to take that promise from you. Having said that, however, remember what I said above, " God doesn't settle all His accounts on our time table." I hope you are prepared for the long haul. I've been at this for over 8 months now....not long by SOME people's standards....but I also believe God "told me" to continue standing, so no matter HOW LONG it takes.....<p>HOW did He "tell me?" By His Word....by praying all night (as you said) until I recieved an answer FROM HIS WORD and had PEACE that it was from God....then I recieved confirmation also. God ALWAYS keeps His promises!! Satan always wants to decieve us and steal our Joy, our Peace, etc. Don't fall for it....<p>Also, let me say specifically for S_N_L, HOW would you prefer God "speak" to us, if you don't believe the Word of God is "inspired?" God has sent it to us, it is Infallible, and It is Living and True. Anything else is just MAN. There is NO higher authority we can turn to in this life besides the WOrd God left with us.<p>God Bless your stand, Boppo.

lupo...Also, let me say specifically for S_N_L, HOW would you prefer God "speak" to us, <p>snl...face to face, I think<p>lupo...if you don't believe the Word of God is "inspired?" God has sent it to us, it is Infallible, and It is Living and True. <p>snl...Hey, I agree with that, where in the world did you get the idea I don't.<p>lupo...Anything else is just MAN. There is NO higher authority we can turn to in this life besides the WOrd God left with us.<p>snl..No argument from me, my issue is with the men who interpret God's word to, and God specifically warns us not to let anyone get in between Him and us. <p>Heck in mth acknowledges marriage is not for life, if abuse/neglect are in the marriage...that's all I am saying too. Further if you are mated right, I don't think you would want to end it anyways.<p>and mth, abuse/neglect is the basis of my feeling the marriage was never right. But let me ask you something, why would 2 people who were oneflesh, and in-love want to seperate anyways? One could argue the desire to end a marriage is ipso facto proof the marriage was not oneflesh, and the interactions not nurturing hence abusive/neglectful.... I have felt for years the things you mentioned in your post, could I have left any time then? Would that be ok?

SNL
Just keep in mind one persons abuse (and can leave) might be another persons simple discomfort, which they need to live with (and not leave)...how do you tell? <p>MTH
I addressed that in my post above. I think the abuse issue is pretty cut and dried. Discomfort is not abuse.Marriage can be very uncomfortable at times and not be abusive.<p>SNL<p>"the fact is it is not working the way God says it should, there is abuse/neglect and I wonder if that is the outcome (consequence) of not following God's will (for each of us) in marrying<p>MTH<p>The fact is.... that you have not done it the way God has told you to do it. You have stated multiple times on this forum that you do not believe in sacrificial marriage. Well that's what God tells you to do. I don't think you'd have such a hard time with it if you really understood what it's all about. If what you have written here over the months regarding your marriage is completely truthful ( I don't think I've read more than a couple of Thinker's posts and then they were replies to others) I'd gather that your wife probably hasn't followed God's instruction to wives either. That abuse/neglect is the outcome of not following God's instruction on how to conduct yourself as husband and your wife's (assuming here)not following His instruction to wives. My H and I both experienced that abuse/neglect in our "old" marriage. I agree that it is extremely painful and saddening to the core. It will take the life out of any marriage. I also know that the reason it doesn't exist in our "new" marriage is because we BOTH have humbley(sp?) submitted to doing marriage God's way this time.<p>SNL<p>I have a real problem with freewill and marriage<p>MTH<p>Why?????? Do you think that God has our perfect partner picked out for us? If we have no freewill to choose a marriage partner, then why does He have the need to counsel us not to become unequally yoked with a non believer? It's because we do have freewill in picking a mate. It's one of those choices we get to make, like heaven and hell. Then, when we make a promise(to love, honor and cherish til death do us part) to that person we've chosen, it's our responsibility to honor it.<p>SNL
the notion that God will bless any union I just flat out don't believe, otherwise (as you pointed out) no, one could leave abusive marriages.<p>MTH<p>I don't see what one has to do with the other. Just because God blesses a marriage to begin with does not protect it from ever ending.If one or both partners choose not to follow God's instruction to H&W and ruin their marriage by becoming abusive to each other (or one to the other) then the marriage suffers the consequences of that. Just because God blesses a marriage, is no guarantee that one partner will not fall away from God and choose to sin in such a way that the other partner has a biblical reason to leave.<p>SNL
How do you live with someone and tell them everyday (as radical honesty requires) you do not want to do this, but will obey God, follow the script until one of you is released by death? I look at this, and it makes me sadder than I could ever express to you, I'd rather be dead. I cannot fake it mth, is that what I have to do? <p>MTH<p>Being a Christian isn't part of a cafeteria plan SNL. Sure we can do it that way, pick and choose what we will obey and what we won't obey, but then we are responsible for the unhappiness we cause ourselves. Doing it His way will bring us peace, joy and contentment. It doesn't pan out that way when we insist on doing it our way when His way doesn't jive with how we think things ought to work or be. <p>I honestly can feel your sadness. I honestly feel very saddened for you and for Thinker. I can understand how to continue out of duty would make you feel like you'd rather be dead. Things aren't getting better because the abuse and neglect still exist in your marriage and most likely because it goes both ways. However, it's God's promise to both you and Thinker that if you'd live out His instruction on being a Godly H and Thinker a Godly W you'd have a fulfilling, satisfying marriage. But you refuse His counsel on this. You do not pick that part of being a Christian man and husband. WHY???????? Why do you seek God's will for your life and your marriage but you won't follow his instruction on how to be a Godly H???? Why don't you and Thinker "can" secular counseling and seek out schooled biblical guidance on how to repair your marriage????? Why don't you both just try it God's way? He's never broken a promise yet. What makes you think He'll start with your marriage.<p>
SNL<p>If after 5 years, 10 years, 20 years of trying, of "doing" it, you do not want to live as man and wife...what do you do with that, you keep just doing it till you die? <p>MTH<p>If you gave God the benefit of the doubt and BOTH you and Thinker honestly did it His way for all those years, you have God's promise of a fulfilling marriage. If you alone, honestly did it God's way for all those years and Thinker refused to honor her God given role as a Godly wife then it would be pretty apparent that she has no regard for your emotional and spiritual well being and I'd tend to see that as emotionally abusive.However, I'd surely seek Godly, biblical counsel on my perception of things before I ended my marriage.<p>
SNL<p>How do you want to be loved mth, is duty enough? Will you accept your H honoring vows, if he told you that was his only motivation?<p>MTH<p>Nope, no duty bound H for me. If my H would have stayed out of duty, the abuse and neglect would have remained and the marriage would have ended. Instead we both chose a new marriage built on God's way of doing marriage and we have been endlessly blessed. If God can work it in a marriage as miserable as ours was, He can do it in yours too. He needs BOTH you and Thinker's cooperation though.<p>
SNL
Why would I be interested in fooling you? It is not like I am asking for money or something.<p>MTH<p>LOL! Geesh, what I was implying is that you are fooling yourself into believeing that your endless questioning is because you want to do what God has in His plan for you. I, on the other hand, am not "fooled" by the endless questioning you do. I see it as your way to continue to insist on doing it SNL's way.<p>SNL<p>I am hellbent on ending the unhappiness and misery both thinker and I have lived with far too long.<p>MTH<p>Then you have 2 choices. Divorce and be done with it or embrace your God's instruction, live it faithfully and whole heartedly and see what happens. It's pretty simple after all these months of searching.<p>SNL...I agree, but why do you assume you are not the one twisting?<p>MTH<p>I have no motivation to twist.I do not add to God's perfect Word nor do I take away from it. I seek out scholarly biblical guidance and teaching to live my life by. I have no agenda to do anything but live as He would have me live.My sincere desire, is to share with people here, what He's done in my own marriage so that they can have hope for their own. I only hope to give you hope.<p>Oh SNL, I am sorry you are still so troubled, saddened and feel that the answers still elude you. They are right there in front of you.All you have to do is embrace them. God will not fail you or your marriage.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</p>

Ok see you snuck some in on me while I was replying.<p>
SNL<p> But let me ask you something, why would 2 people who were oneflesh, and in-love want to seperate anyways? One could argue the desire to end a marriage is ipso facto proof the marriage was not oneflesh, and the interactions not nurturing hence abusive/neglectful.... I have felt for years the things you mentioned in your post, could I have left any time then? Would that be ok? <p>MTH<p>Oneflesh implies a blood relationship. My kids and I are oneflesh. When I willingly entered into my marriage my H and I became as oneflesh, in other words a relationship that is equal to that of a blood relative. Where and how do you get your interpretation of oneflesh? As far as "in-love" goes, that is a feeling that comes and goes.Happiness is based on happenings. I will not always be happy depending on what is happening, just like I will have varying degrees of feeling "in-love" based on how well my H meets my ENs.<p>Sorry SNL, I'm not going to tell you it would have been ok to leave your marriage because you have said yourself that you don't believe in God's way of doing it in the first place. You've got to do it His way and then see if the abuse and neglect remain before you can say you did everything humanly possible to honor your promise.

snl....<p>Yet again you have taken over a thread of someones.<p>Have you ever thought as to why you have to defend what it is you type!!<p>What's with the rest of you, feeding into this, he just keeps going....and going....and going....is he pink with a little drum and big floppy ears?<p>Just MHO.<p>Dawn [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

.<p>[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

Still going eh? Good grief...

Guess that kind of ended it!!