NW - You got me. You WIN!!!! My apologies....

Please understand that my post was to point out that if we all were doing it according to the Master's plan none of this would even be an issue. The other person would not be the other person at all and we wouldn't need this website to talk about the pain that we ALL are (both betrayer and betrayed alike) going through. God encompasses all!!! He can't be left out of the equation. That is the problem. We try to reason things out in our own way which will always be incomplete because we don't know all the variables that need to be considered. You can't beat the logic of the Creator. You only frustrate yourself when you try. <P>It is this we think we are more intelligent that the One who made us though process that gets us into trouble. It is the far more open minded approach. I don't have to agree with you to respect your view. Your personal attack is an indication that you don't respect me. I did not attack you. I merely stated what God has revealed to me. You asked for opinions. I gave you what everyone of us is saying but not in the words that you want to hear. You want solutions to justify things that go against God's will. It will never work in the long run because the actions are not God's will. He will use those actions to produce a wonderful thing in your life if you allow Him. That would be like the PC telling the man who programmed it that the man didn't know what the hell he or she was doing. The creation became smarter than the creator.<P>Please understand that I present what I feel God has revealed to me. It is presented in Christian love. Yet the truth hurts. It cuts both ways: receiver and deliverer.<BR>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 12, 1999).]

Lost Soul--<P>I believe you're asking questions that lead to polyamory relationships (not just about sex, caring involved, time and activities together defined and agreed upon by all). This would be a very difficult situation to control for the happiness of all. K's post including his comment about the more people you throw together is quite germaine. <P>My first H brought up a discussion, years ago, that I still recall. He said to him, a perfect life would be the blending of 6 people into a "family," 3 men and 3 women, who cared for each in the group. His thoughts were: there would always be someone available to comfort/talk with, to cook, to have sex, to plan, to take care of household projects. At the time, I thought, yeah, commune-style living, impossible, you're kinda weird. It isn't a perfect world, and though such an IDEA is great, would it work? COULD it work for any extended amount of time? I don't see how. MAYbe if an originating couple had NO problems ("perfect world") and just wanted to "share the wealth" with others...but who's got no problems? <P>If you're interested in learning more about polyamory relationships, try exploring the web. I did happen to fall into an AOL chatroom once about this very subject. It was interesting to talk with them, and obviously people ARE trying this lifestyle. I just don't know if there are any statistics concerning success rates.<P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

Lost Soul -<P>I brought up a thread by GM - See if this is the type of thing that you are talking about?<P>Sheba<P>PS - Please don't be rude to people!!<BR> Have a nice day!!!!

double!!<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 12, 1999).]

double!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 12, 1999).]

LostSoul:<P>Why monogamy?<P>Geez, it's hard enough trying to keep ONE woman happy!

Touchee, Doug.

interesting, lucks, what your H thought.<BR>On the same night i was having a horrible nightmare of me, H and OW living together, but him kicking me out, quickly, HE was having a dream we all lived together harmoniously, even his adult daughter, and H and OW worked, and i was like the great mother of the home. Ah, the happy polygamists dream....

Doug,<BR>My sentiments exactly !!!!<P>Where have you been?

Firstly I want to appologise to anyone who has been offended by my words...<P>Looking back now I can see that my original meaning did not come out in them and it did appear as if I was disrespecting people.<P>For that I am sorry.<P>When I said "God aside"... I was not under any intention asking you to do something against your faith or to take off your "God Hat"... what I was trying to articulate was this...<P>We all know that there will NEVER be an understanding between those who do and do not believe in God or follow him... and that it is frivilous for anyone to even attempt to have a rational discussion when one side has this belief and the other doesn't...<P>So my attempt to avoid the conflict of "God says so vs Science says so" etc I tried to phrase my reluctance to have it degenerate into this by saying "God Aside".<P>I have absolutely no disrespect whatsoever for people who have these beliefs or follow them in any way they wish, but at the same time what point is there in telling someone who does _not_ have this belief "Its Gods plan"... Honestly, if you are not going to understand my way of thinking and I am not going to understand your way of thinking then statements like this come from ignorance.<P>When I said things like the divorce rate and the number of things in the infidelity list... I prefaced them (hopefully well enough) by saying they were _my_ reasons for thinking the way I do... Perhaps you have all done so as well (ie "Its God's plan for _ME_" and not "us").<P>To answer some of the questions put to me :<P>I am the type of person who would never ask for something I was not willing to first give. If I was looking to include another woman then I would be happy to include another man, interaction between the women is up to them as is the interaction between the men, It could be on levels of sex only or something more such as companionship (in fact we already have this when we go out with friends... don't we ALL do that?), Would the other person be single or married? That would depend on the circumstances... if the purpose was to include 2 people then I guess married would be prefered... we wouldn't tread on toes, everyone would know, if they were married and their partner didn't know we wouldn't involve them. <P>It isn't something that is actively "searched" for, nor something you would "interview"... but in everyones lives there are times of attraction to people other than our partners... and the way things are at the moment we hide those attractions, treat them as "dirty" and perhaps even eventually resent our partners for having to do it...<P>I just think the world would be a better place if those attractions were NOT resented and could be openly expressed to our partners and instead of seclusion and exclusion we started inclusion and sharing.<P>Thats all.

LostSoul,<BR>I understand where you are coming from. I once thought as you think. But as it says in the Bible, I thought like a child (not I am not saying that you are a child, but now that I am saved those thoughts are a thing of the past in terms of actions. Those thoughts still exist, yet I know that they are false because I was confused as I guess you are from your question about what to do in this situation. Please understand that once I became saved the reasons became clear why people do what they do. However, I control only one person: me. I control who has control over my life. In my case this is God. He shows me everything. I see things that don't want to see also, such as my W having 8 affairs. Yet, He shows me how to deal with being the loving person that she desperately seeks. He led me to this forum to get ideas from saved and unsaved alike because He controls everything. He could made us all automotons. We experience the pain that is caused by our actions. His logic is flawless. You just have to taste and see the Lord's goodness (Psalm 34:8).<P>God be with you my friend.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Professor...<P>You seem like an intelligent and thoughtful person, one who isn't likely to dismiss something simply because it doesn't fit their idealogy so I think I am safe in asking you this.<P>One thing I have learned is never to have blind faith in something. Believing in something absolutely stagnates you, closes you off to learning or growing because your avenue of "possibility" is now severely limited.<P>While you say in being saved everything became clear to you... is it not also true that there is a possibility your being "saved" simply polarized you to that way of thinking? That what you have defined as clarity is in fact your brain accepting this... possibly because it "wants" to accept it?<P>Now I am not saying that it is so in all cases or even in your case... but in saying you thought as a child previously and now you know the way... there is another case that says instead of finding your way you have now become completely lost under the beliefs you have made for yourself.<P>Take a patient with a mental problem... suddenly things become clear to them that an invisible person does exist, to them its blatantly obvious... and they are baffled as to how nobody else can see it. I am not making any references to peoples beliefs in saying this but simply hoping that someone who is obviously as wise as you is not silly enough to believe blindly and absolutely in anything.<P>I am a little worried about you talking about automatons though... you said that God led you everywhere but that you had your own choice... if you believe in God then you believe where he leads you, in doing everything he tells you are you not an automaton by your own choice?<P>I believe even God himself said not to worship him foolishly... doing so without question is foolish and often leads to people feeling superior simply because they now "see" what others cannot.<P>That was my whole basis for saying leave God aside... I am NEVER going to change your belief and you are NEVER going to be able to change mine. When the basis for ALL of your opinions stem from "God says so" and you are unable to prove the existence of God for anyone but yourself and those who believe as you do... using "God says so" is next to useless and only alienates people more.<P>Can you see this? If you cannot then I would like to respectfully ask that we do not discuss anything further between us on any level... because if this basic premise doesn't even register with you then nothing good can come of it for either of us.<P>I am sorry but while I am willing to entertain the possible existance of a deity, if you are unwilling to entertain the possibility of it NOT existing one of us is too closed-minded to have a conversation.<P>[Appologies to anyone who thinks this comment harsh... it is simply honest, no malice intended]

I must vehemently disagree with the statement: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Believing in something absolutely stagnates you, closes you off to learning or growing because your avenue of "possibility" is now severely limited.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Some of the most intelligent and caring people I know are also devout Christians, with this same "absolute belief" that you claim will stagnate them. I have had the most incredible discussions with a woman who was my closest friend (she was killed last October in a freak collision with a motorcycle) - open, honest, not limited or stagnant. Her husband is a Methodist minister, extremely spiritual and so incredibly intelligent and learned - he would refer back to the early Greek versions of the Bible in explaining scripture. In personal discussions, he was open to anything - I even once pointed out that the First Commandment does NOT say "There are No Other Gods Except Me" but "Thou shalt Have No Other Gods BEFORE Me." We had a lively discussion about this - and he did not close his mind to that interpretation at all.<P>terri

dj:<BR>Oh... out... about. Sometimes lurking, sometimes posting. Pretty busy at a new job. Thanks for asking.<P>

Terri,<P>Did this person you talk of accept the possibility that he had faith in a God that doesn't exist?<P>Was that a thought he could possibly entertain?<P>I think not... while it sounds as if he was wonderfully open-minded, very intelligent and able to debate on levels that may not have been his own opinions, I am sure at no stage would he have even contemplated the possibilty that there is _no_ God.<P>Hence he is limited.<P>I can understand you objecting to the statement... as I have said before... most people who have such faith WOULD object to it... because it IS outside of what they know inside them.<P>People of all faiths are told not to even consider alternatives, in that they are stagent... would the Christian ever study the Hindu? Or the Mueslim study the Bhudist? Of course not... it goes against everything organised religion stands for.<P>Please, while I accept you have a different opinion than I, and you have every right to "believe" you are not closed off or stagnent, do not allow yourself to believe that your opinion is the only "true" opinion or the only right one... I certainly don't think mine are, but they are mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Couple are married, female feels a need to "cheat" as it were. Instead of doing this and the trouble it brings they talk to their partner about having the object of their desire join both of them. Now I am sure most times this is about sex, affection, feeling wanted or "something" that the partner is not providing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As a married partner, if your spouse has needs which you aren’t meeting, don’t you WANT to find out what those needs are and try to fulfill them? Isn’t that what marriage is all about? Caring for someone else?<P>What I read you as saying is, “If I don’t meet those needs, then it is okay for the other to get them somewhere else.” If that how YOU feel, then great. TO each his/her own. However, I don’t want my marriage to be like that, otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten married!<P>For the 91% of women who initiate divorce <A HREF="http://edward.family-therapist.webjump.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://edward.family-therapist.webjump.com/</A> <BR>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 13, 1999).]

Lost Soul,<P>Your theories regarding the mainstream "betrayed" and "betrayers" would do much better, would you relate your own situation to others I would imagine, or perhaps I've missed where you did relate your story.

Chris,<P>FACT: We all know we are not going to meet ALL the needs of our partner<P>So while I am NOT saying that if I do not meet a need my partner has she has a right to get it elsewhere... I AM saying that if she has a need I am not meeting then do I just ignore she has the need? Let her resent me because it isn't being met?<P>Now if our partners came to us and told us we were not meeting a specific need... how many of us would actually listen? The number of times I have read on here people saying they tried to tell their partner for YEARS to no avail... And that is the point... we dont see what we are not doing until too late.. I am sure most people will have to agree here.<P>Sometimes our partner cannot articulate what it is they want... they KNOW there is something missing but cannot put their finger on it.<P>All I am saying is that if given the choice between my partner cheating on me and wanting to include me I would rather be INcluded than EXcluded... I think much more can be learned from being PART of what is going on than being EXCLUDED from what is happening as so many betrayers do.<P>Madelyn:<P>I have put my story throughout this thread but it is getting very long and difficult to read through... sorry.<P>To put it in a Nutshell for you (Not an Austin Powers one ;-) :<P>We have BOTH cheated on previous relationships, we both know WHY we cheated and we both know what it is like to be cheated on. So we came to the agreement that instead of cheating on each other we would come to the other person and tell them how we were feeling, explain what was happening and if it couldn't be resolved between us we would "include" whomever the other person was in the experience. Now for us this might mean the only form of cheating is sexual and not emotional (because emotional needs can be met without cheating through friends etc)... and so instead of denying each others sexual needs we would turn it around, make it something positive, and experience not many others have and instead of keeping someone out in the rain (which harbours resentment, hurt and everything else) we would include them in the situation and make it something that we as a COUPLE did.<P>To my way of thinking... and I haven't heard any reason to contradict this yet (btw, I am *LOOKING* for something to contradict this because it is my way of testing my theories), this would get rid of ALL of the bad things that go with cheating and betrayal, allow people to be completely honest and open and each of us knows that the other is TOTALLY willing to give somethign that the other one needs...<P>And I dont think many other relationships are willing to go that far.

LostSoul,<P>Maybe it's just me, but these hypotheticals you are posing seem to be contradictory. Firstly, let me say that I agree if a spouse has needs and they must go without those needs being met by their spouse, resentment builds. Been there, done that, so I can confer. I also agree that if a spouse forces him or herself to fulfill needs they don't really want to fulfill, that also breeds resentment.<P>Now, my question to you is, is it your need to have sex with your W or is it your need to have threesomes that isn't being fulfilled?<P>The reason I ask is because all this talk about including your W in the sex and other activities with the OP is puzzling to me. I mean, if your W is participating, and it is sex with your W that you lack, why do you need the OP??????? When you first posted here, it seemed you wanted more sex with W, now it seems you want more sex with W and another person too. Which is it?<P>I'm confused, help me out here.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.