Yes it is true jo, and I don't mean anything by it, just a simple statement of fact.<p>Think about it, most every bs asks repeatedly for reconcilliation, puts up with a ton of crap, (usually).....and is very happen (often ecstatic) when the ws finally focus's on them and says all the things they want so desperately to hear. Not to mention meeting a few en's. I see very few bs actually analyzing their ws, and making a decision re whether they are marriage material...the rhetoric is usally about forgiving and moving on, giving em a chance to change blah blah blah, and this is so easy to fake...not in the sense of a con, but in a sense of denial, the ws has no other place to land, and usually are a manipulative bunch anyways, and if sociopathic at all are quite capable of projecting they really have "seen the light" (which is mostly not true near as I can tell).... misery in missouri is a poster child for this kind of "reconcilliation". I know what thinker wants, I could easily behave in such a fashion she would be posting similar posts in a matter of days....and occassionally I feel this urge to to just that, to become one of the "good" ws, to enjoy the support and the accolades, to be the recipient of her goodwill, etc. etc... heck, she has pretty much offered me anything I want emotionally/psychologically, any en I have, just let her know, and she will do it, pretty attractive ya know....it ain't much fun being a conflictual ws, pretty much gaurantees I am pondscum, so why not give it up, and return to the fold, and that is what many ws do I suspect....until the next time, or they will just never be fully there anyways, just won't wander, and the bs will still be lonely, neglected (after the honeymoon wears off). So why don't I? Cause I don't do anything halfway, when I was in the marriage I was in it...and when I left, I left...I live my life hard, and decisively...I can't, won't reconcille unless I can see that is how it should be, and that is what you have all been witness to, my efforts to ascertain that. <p>My w knows this, she should after 29 years, and it is why she pressures me so hard, she knows if I say it, it will be because I mean it, and I will never change again...but she is pushing too hard, way to hard. All I am saying re other bs and their ws, is be certain in your own mind you understand who they really are, their is a lot of phoney balonely that goes on...but if they come back, and if you take them back, do not put up with ANYTHING, if it is for real, they will do the work, and toe the line without so much as a peep...I would....and at the first misstep, let em go, you are just asking for a life of misery if you enable them...this shouldn't be that hard ya know, if they truly are in-love with you, and are your oneflesh, in fact should be easy really.<p>[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Thanks guys. I will try to thank you in order, k?<p>To J.R. - Liked your laughing! Prayers going out to you!<p>To Yesterday - definitely will keep lips zipped and PRAY, PRAY, PRAY for discernment!<p>To Cali - I had read this thread before, but reread it tonight as now I feel it is more something I can get some help from (when all hope is gone, what's the point, right!) <p>Conqueror - You are absolutely right! I can feel good about it, but don't need to go running after him either!! He's GOT to prove it "walk the walk."<p>
Resilient ((JO)), You've been so helpful to me. My H and I currently see the same Christian Counselor. He's covered under our insurance plan and my H seems very comfortable. One of the things we'd done before with our IC is let him share things that he felt were pertinent to either of us. Unfortunately, my H had changed his mind about sharing when he decided our M was over. I might suggest to him that we let the IC share important information with each of us again (that was eventually to lead to MC together).<p>
miserynmissouri - You are absolutely right, all contact with OW must stop forever. I've learned a lot about backing off and being patient.<p>Estes49 - Thank you for all the support. You've been a great source of strength to me with your kind words.

be_positive - THANK YOU!!!

Evensong - What can I say; I'm with you, I've had enough agony riding this roller coaster for a year. I do NOT want to be his choice because it's not working out with OW. I'm staying very low key about it...

MelodyLane - Thank you. You are so right. When I first went to Plan B (prematurely) in July, 2001, my H came home 2 days later. Well, I wrote him a letter on Thursday (2 days ago), now I get this call from him! Oh, he says he's been thinking this way for a long time, but I did say to him today "You know all of this is really great, and I'm happy you're sharing it with me, but in the past, when you've said you love me and want to be with me, that's how you felt "that day"." He was very understanding and said he KNOWS it's going to take time for him to prove to me that this is different. I've been really studying Carolk's thread tonight. <p>
BrambleRose - You always know just the right things to say. We don't have money to talk to Steve, but I do plan on purchasing His Needs/Her Needs for me and for my H. We had Surviving an Affair, but I threw it in the trash on moving day (I just NEVER thought I'd hear this stuff). Please don't get me wrong here, I am not jumping up and down....my heart is not beating fast....I just can't handle more disappointment from him...<p>jeffers - you are so right. For a year, I've been working on me and changing the behaviors in me that helped to lead to the affair. He's done nothing but have his cake and eat it too....his issues are still there, and he readily admitted that to me today (also a first for him). I'm still in modified Plan B (only communicating for the kids/house issues). Also something I forgot to tell everyone is that I have not seen him in 14 days!! That's the longest since all of this began.....<p>sad_n_lonely - I usually disagree with everything you say in your postings. I think you overanalyze stuff to death. I do NOT consider myself a consolation prize, and for you to assume that that is the case in the majority (or whatever word you used) is insulting. It may be the way you would feel if you and your W stay together....you don't know my H and you don't know me, and most importantly, you DON'T know OW. I ROCK compared to her. If my H and I get back together, it will be on MY TERMS this time...meaning, walk the walk, meet MY needs as long as I am willing to meet YOURS, or forget it....no consolation there, it's got to be for LOVE.....<p>cl - no judgments (I only bring that stuff to God, because he listens and understands).<p>hurtbyhubby - THANKS, I'll send you the airline ticket to kick that butt, k?!!! You've been one of my greatest cheerleaders. What's so great about it now, is that I am so much stronger emotionally and physically, I can handle whatever happens. I can sit back and see if anything changes. I'm not going to be the one at this point making changes. It's going to have to be him... you are also very correct, he CAN'T hurt me anymore, unless I let him!

s_n_l said "it is sooooooo easy to get a bs back, and every ws knows how to do it....remember that." Another full of shi* comment, JMHO! Are you friends with every ws on the planet? You can and should only speak for yourself in this area. <p>LOVE YOU GUYS!!!

MoM... you sound so STRONG and so GOOD... <p>I am GRINNING for you... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>s_n_l said "it is sooooooo easy to get a bs back, and every ws knows how to do it....remember that." <hr></blockquote><p>Actually...MOM...I thought what SNL said here was right on target. I find that SNL usually has some excellent stuff to say to everyone else. Its only when he talks about his own marriage that he gets foggy. <p>We have all seen and experienced the WS that will say anything to get the BS to go back to doing the things that create that comfortable environment for the affair.<p>MANY times...a WS just wants the BS to stop putting up those inconvenient boundaries.<p>While I *hope* your H means it this time...at least he meant it when he said it...it doesn't mean that he will continue to mean it, or will follow through.<p>Mine made EVERY PROMISE - mine even started counseling with Steve Harley. My H didn't mean it. Steve read the my H correctly - and told me at a time that my H was saying everything right that my H was full of BS. I wanted to believe my H, but I listened to Steve...and Steve was right.<p>When he finally did mean it - I negotiated with my H and insisted on HIS proof of action (ie nocontact letter, passwords, access to everything including the bank) that I allowed him to come home. <p>When I suggested talk to Steve - I wasn't suggesting that you get the book. This is a time where you can NOT afford NOT to spend the money on Steve...even if only for a session or 2.<p>The book can't tell you if your H is serious and help you form a real plan for recovery. Steve can.

Bramblerose,
Thank you for your last post. While I still disagree with snl's take on it, I will concede that I HAVE made it too easy for my H in the past. The difference now is that I am on my own. I rather like where I am right now, and so while I love him, I really love more what I know he could be if he wanted to be. I've come to the place where I will not ask him to change for me...it's something he's got to want for his own happiness. He knows these things, as I wrote them in my last letter to him. I do not expect him to be anyone he's not, but I also told him I have a right to be with someone who treats me the way I need to be treated, and if he's not that person, I'm o.k. with that too. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I've done a lot of work this last year. I've made the changes in me that I knew I needed to change; for ME. He's got a lot of work to do in himself and he said as much to me today....of COURSE I've heard a lot of it before, but not most of what he said today....these were first admissions on his part. He's NEVER spoken of the relationship with OW, except to say that there is one. I've been thinking all day about the fact that I REALLY have no clue how he's going to go about proving to me when/if it is finally over for good. He's written 3 no-contact letters....none of them did any good, because he's addicted to her... So basically I have no idea what it will take for me to believe, except maybe for her to move 1,000 miles away! Even then, there's still the phone and the internet. I guess I'd like to speak to her myself at some point, but then she's lied throughout all of this as well. I guess what I'm saying at this point is that I'm not getting excited because I really don't know if recovery is possible from my point of view after all that's gone on...my hope was gone...it's not exactly "back" yet. Sorry for rambling....I know that s_n_l's helped a lot of people on here, it's just I've not had the patience to read most of his lengthy posts. No offense to him, but I just don't think he's really followed MB principles, and have always wondered just why he's hanging out here....<p>Thanks again BRose, I really do appreciate your voice of wisdom...<p>MOM

Good for you, MoM!!!<p>You go, You are strong and you are doing this on your own terms, with no expectations!! There is so much to gain!! Make him do the walk before you let come back.<p>I also liked your comments and your strength to some of your replies!! Your are an Awesome women!!<p>Dawn [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: daybreak ]</p>

Dawn,
Thank you so much for your reply. It's amazing to me how many people are able to reach out when we need them, even in the midst of their own pain. I want you to know that I pray daily for everyone here at MB. I pray for them to have healing and for God's will to be done in their marriages...You are one of those that I pray for. Just wanted you to know that even though I don't know you well, GOD DOES!!!<p>PEACE,
MOM

mom, I am not raining on your parade, least that is not my intention, if all you need is um.... "support" then I shouldn't have posted...my intent is generally to be the other voice of reason in the face of bs euphoria (cause so often it blinds them to the reality of their circumstances). I really do wonder why any bs (in general) would even want a ws back who completely rejected them, made and moved on to another choice, and "suddenly" sees the light. While anything is possible, the odds are very very low such an individual does it because they are now going to be a great spouse...the more mundane explanation is usually they are doing it for themself cause they want what you have to offer, and will work exactly as hard as they must to get that....IMO that is not the proper basis for a marriage.....this scenario is repeated endlessly here on MB particularly in the reovery board...in the long run the bs just gets back a high maintainence spouse, one they can never really trust, one that does not "love" back, just gives back what they must, and ends up not particularly happy knowing full well what they have got back. <p>The ws may never wander again, but the marriage is not particularly fullfilling either, and that is what I meant about looking hard at such ws....I am very very leery about ws who come back ONLY after the op did not work out, or cause you have more to offer....I think the vast majority of such ws have personality disorders (meaning they will never really be able to give properly to anyone, they are essentially takers). I think it is through the mechanism of an affair (how it started and how it ends) that a bs has a chance to realize the fundamental nature of their spouse....and I don't think bs often enough really evaluate this, and so are going to be hurt again.... every bs with small children needs to keep in mind that that is certainly a draw for the ws too, especially if op fails...but what happens when the kids grow up? Anyways, lots of things to consider, and I have observed both bs, and ws are "drawn" by the honeymoon of reconcilliation, as well as the dynamics of pursuit....a ws who sees their bs "leaveing" is not going to want to lose them (anymore than the bs wants to lose the ws, so competes with the op for their spouse often for that reason alone, to win)...likewise a ws who "pursues" their bs is going to be very attractive to the ws, who "overlooks" the reality behind the pursuit. All this makes for more often than not, failed recoveries, and/or recoveries that lead to unsatisfying marriages...once the ws is fully integrated back into family they can stop pursuing and just let you do the work...as long as they don't wander. I don't make this stuff up mom, it is all over these boards, and in the stories people tell about their lives....this isn't even that hard to figure out, once you see enough of it. How do you tell? Not easy, but at least requiring your ws to work very very hard is one good means to get a handle on what is really going on inside them. It amazes me how many bs accept the ws back and do not require at the very least strict adherence to the rules of extraordinary protection, or who put up with anger/control from ws, or who do not require major success at meeting your ens, full honesty about anything and everything, as well as full committment to all the counselling needed to get to the bottom of the ws issues.<p>mom...sad_n_lonely - I usually disagree with everything you say in your postings. I think you overanalyze stuff to death. I do NOT consider myself a consolation prize, and for you to assume that that is the case in the majority (or whatever word you used) is insulting. <p>snl...Hmm, if I want to insult someone I will make it clear...lets not assume annoying=insulting..ok? (however, I reviewed what I said just in case, and there is nothing insulting in it, so I must disagree with your complaint). Also plz keep in mind I do post with the expectation many will read, so often my thoughts are generic, I didn't say specifically your H was anything at all, but was commenting on his patterns, and suggesting important things to keep in mind, which of course you can totally ignore, I know that.<p>If we don't analyze stuff we are doomed to keep repeating our poor choices, this couldn't be more true in marital issues, if all we want is reconcilliation, instead of wanting truth. The former insures we will ignore warning signs, cause they interfere with what we want. Too much? I do get accused of that, but I don't think you can do too much...unless you are not taking actions as well, and I do take actions, despite being critized for same. So yes, analyzing and doing nothing is not helpful. In your case, after analysis you obviously have to decide whether you will, and under what conditions, take H back. I know you cannot know the outcome, and have to take a risk either way. I was not suggesting you don't take him back, just suggesting I am not particularly impressed with his "seeing" the light, it was predictable given the op not working out....the issue is who is your H, and do you really know him? Obviously only you can know that....certainly not me.<p>mom...you don't know my H and you don't know me, and most importantly, you DON'T know OW. I ROCK compared to her. If my H and I get back together, it will be on MY TERMS this time...meaning, walk the walk, meet MY needs as long as I am willing to meet YOURS, or forget it....no consolation there, it's got to be for LOVE.....<p>snl..Ok, I think there was a misunderstanding. I was not referring to your being much better wife material vs ow. I meant YOU are percieved as the consolation prize, by your H. That meaning he wandered off cause it was good for him, so it didn't work out, and now he will wander back to you (essentially betraying the ow who I assume he made promises to...just like you, ya know?). So what happens next time something interesting crosses his bow? That is what I meant about ws who return under these kinds of circumstances...they are not really choosing you for you...they are choosing you for them...a big difference. This does not mean he didn't make some kind of error that is not a reflection of who he really is, and now will become a terrific H and so forth and so on, but the odds are very small that is the case...what is far more likely with this kind of ws is he will simply play the game better to get what he wants from you. People do not change very much, (don't yell at me, just basic psychology 101).... so the real issue, is who is he, and are you going to dig hard enough to find out.<p>mom...s_n_l said "it is sooooooo easy to get a bs back, and every ws knows how to do it....remember that." Another full of shi* comment, JMHO! Are you friends with every ws on the planet? You can and should only speak for yourself in this area. <p>snl...Is ok, maybe I am full of it...but I do not have to be friends with every human being to observe and understand human psychology. The fact is the odds of ws who completely reject their spouses in the manner your H has, rarely make good (as in nurturing you) mates... But I suppose in the long run, after due diligence, if one wants to, giving someone a second chance is probably the better choice....but if he falters, just remember the stories of misery in missouri, and so many others. You do sound like you have your own stuff together, and that is good, and I do wish you (and your H) the best, I am just a rationalist mom, that is my temperament, and I can't do anything but calls it as I sees it. I would be doing you (and everyone here) a disservice if I did not give honest feedback, and most (whether they agree or disagree) prefer all opinions, if you would prefer I don't post to you, I won't...interestingly (despite some vehement disagreements on some issues) only a couple 2 or 3 have ever asked me not to post to them. btw I am not upset or anything, I figured I might annoy ya some, and almost didn't post, but I don't want to self-censor like that, feels like I am decideing for you, and that is not right. I know you are feeling hopeful, and rightly so, I would be too, and that is when you become vulnerable again, and I guess I just want to help keep balance so people can make good decisions, and make good choices. Good luck.<p>[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SnL: I really do wonder why any bs (in general) would even want a ws back who completely rejected them, made and moved on to another choice, and "suddenly" sees the light.<p>J.R.: Well, if we keep in mind that for MOST WS, they are in an altered state of mind, the "rejection" per se isn't "real". I.e., if you look at the stories, for many WS when the fog clears, they wonder what the h@ll they were thinking, can't remember much of what they said, etc., etc. Even my WW admits she has an addiction, is acting stupid, and does love me dearly. She's tried to stop, too. She's just an alien. So I want the her back that's capable of giving again. Right now it's take, take, take - even in her A, I suspect.<p>SNL: in the long run the bs just gets back a high maintainence spouse, one they can never really trust, one that does not "love" back, just gives back what they must, and ends up not particularly happy knowing full well what they have got back.<p>J.R.: That's rather bleak. And I think it happens - happens when the parties haven't fully moved from conflict to intimacy. That's a huge leap that requires work from both sides. Let me just say this... if my WW and I can start recovery, I'll do everything I can to make her happy - that was my promise and my goal from day 1 (both succeeded and failed at times). If I watch her, and she doesn't grow to the state of real intimacy, then we have a major problem. Then I've got the power in the situation to reevaluate - then, yes, new choices can be made, related to "fit", etc. But to not explore that avenue - would leave me questioning, would leave her with regrets (trust me! I see what's going on with WW/OM - it WILL lead to disaster if not for the fact that the A will die a nasty death).<p>IC/MC had us in a joint session a couple of weeks ago. She had a very fitting question for WW: "What would you be doing to help your child if they were in this kind of situation?" It really took WW back a bit. She never considered that perspective. The idea that she could HELP, and that she really needed to start by helping herself - were implied, and not lost on her, I think. I personally take that one step further. If WW were my child - maybe one of our kids - how would I act (especially looking at it as a destructive addiction)? Well, I'd try to HELP. I.e. I wouldn't give up so easily.<p>SNL: I think the vast majority of such ws have personality disorders (meaning they will never really be able to give properly to anyone, they are essentially takers).<p>J.R.: Well, you may be right. But personality disorders can be treated. Again, if it was my child in WW's spot, I'd be doing my best to help, disorder or no disorder.<p>SNL: once the ws is fully integrated back into family they can stop pursuing and just let you do the work.<p>J.R.: yes, some BS make this mistake, of letting them get away with too much. That's a good lesson for BS to keep in mind: accountability. Make the WS earn it, prove that they're committed, and if they're not, either question the honesty of their "no contact", or take other, more drastic action. But in the end, the BS has much power of choice - and I agree, we need to look hard at WS. There's nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind those 4 benefits of Plan A, because they represent the real reason many of us BS are still "trying", despite the risks you describe: 1. accepting BS's role in A and learning to modify one's behavior, 2. the WS isn't certain themselves, 3. we BS need to know we tried (removal of some guilt), 4. we will either recover or lose our love for WS.

MOM,<p>I haven't been on in a couple of days, but I was glad to see your latest when I logged on! I guess that hoping and praying that I did for you when you had given up hope might just be beginning to work! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Seriously, though, you know what your terms have to be. I strongly believe in the Harley principles, and I think you do too. Make certain that when/if it does happen, it happens on YOUR conditions. You protect YOU and the CHILDREN!!!<p>I think your plan from your original post is probably the most prudent.....do nothing. Just live for YOU, and let your H find his own way. If he comes back, it won't be easy. Not for him, not for you, the kids, OW...nobody. But as "they" say, anything worth ANYTHING is not attained easily. <p>Take care and God bless.
Kev

Thank you MoM, for the kind words and the prayers, I do so appreciate them.<p>I remember when you came to the forum, I so liked your user name!!!<p>Dawn

Dear MOM, I pray that the little bit of light shining through that your H has let you see is just the beginning...but make it hard for him to get it all back. Make him earn it.<p>You sound amazing and so in control of your own life. I admire where you find yourself.<p>Congratulations....<p>May the baby steps continue. <p>Hugs

Thanks again everyone. Again, s_n_l, I often wonder why you are hanging out on a MARRIAGE BUILDING site. You are entirely too negative and skeptical. Also, the whole "euphoric" bs thing....did you READ my first post? I am a teenie tiny bit less than euphoric...I'm scared, I'm distrustful and I'm completely on guard. This man has done unspeakable things to me and my children over the last year. You are right in that I do believe my H has some sort of personality disorder. Part of what he talked to me about yesterday was all the crap he's got inside that's made him the person he's become. I explained to him that I can't help him with that. Also, after this year, and my closer relationship with God, I have MUCH higher standards for what I think my marriage should be. My H is fully aware of what I need in order do even THINK of trying to become friends with him again, and one day H and W again. I probably should have called my post "Frightening Development" instead of incredible. I've had a day and a half to mull things over and I'm even more skeptical than ever. I mean I have only recently gotten to the acceptance stage, and I told my H that I had no idea whether I could go backwards to the recovery stage again. I really don't think of that as euphoric. <p>s_n_l, I would truly prefer not to have you post to me again. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, it's just that I don't think that you truly have Marriage Building on your heart.<p>Thanks everyone, your replies really help.<p>MOM

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Myownme:
<strong> but I do plan on purchasing His Needs/Her Needs for me and for my H. <p> I can sit back and see if anything changes. I'm not going to be the one at this point making changes. It's going to have to be him... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>MOM,<p>I'm pointing this out because it's one of the things I'm noticing and currently working on in myself. I think sometimes we get so used to doing things a certain way, and it is hard to step back and see exactly what it is we are doing.<p>For instance, do you see how your two statements above are in conflict? If it's going to have to be him making changes and you're going to sit back and see if he makes any changes, then why would you buy HNHN for him? Shouldn't HE be the one locating and procuring books on how to fix what he did to his family? Wouldn't that be part of the walk and an indication of his sincerity?<p>Now, like I said above, I may be projecting here because of my situation, but I totally understand what SNL was saying because my H is like the WSs he describes. My H has NEVER read a book on M, much less applied anything. THIS IS HIS THIRD MARRIAGE, and it, too, is now a disaster, so shouldn't common sense indicate to him that he doesn't have the information necessary to have a successful R?<p>What I'm saying is that you may want to look at the entire M and who has been the caretaker (probably you) and whether you want to resume that role, or whether you think it is his turn to do the work to keep what he SAYS is important to him.<p>WSs manage to do all the work required to maintain TWO lives, so they are obviously very resourceful and creative. Isn't it realistic to expect them to apply those same skills to their M?<p>JR,<p>As I understand it, some, if not all, personality disorders are NOT treatable. That is why they are called disorders, because they are not mental illness, as depression is, for instance. Sometimes in VERY controlled environments (boot camp, prison), the destructiveness of the disorder can be controlled.<p>A very enlightening, but chilling, book is Without Conscience by Dr. Hare. The subtitle of the book is something about the psychopaths among us, and he stresses that they can be found among the general population in almost any capacity.<p>I think SNL is close to the target on this issue. As someone once said, no matter how much you shake a glass, the only thing that will spill out is what was in there in the first place.

I have to agree with Conqueror here. Sometimes SNL is off the wall and other times he is so astute and right on the money that it hurts. I think the latter applies in this case. He makes some excellent points about the possible motivations of a WS to come back and I think they should be taken into account and not glossed over. <p>It is very painful indeed to hear that you might be a consolation prize after a failed relationship with an OP, but I fear that is often the case. And while noone wants to hear that, I think it is the truth sometimes. <p>Hopefully, it is not the case here, but it has to be a consideration.<p>Nor do I think SNL is overly negative - I think he is brutually TRUTHFUL and, unfortunately, the TRUTH is very negative sometimes. For me, I would rather have the TRUTH screamed in my face than have nice, patronizing words parroted at me, but I know some people prefer the nice sounding words. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

yup...I agree. Let HIM go out and buy the book...let HIM suggest ways to you or the counselor that he can again establish trust. Let HIM prove to you that it is over for life with the OW regardless of whether the marriage can still be saved after all the work. You almost shouldn't even have to tell him what your requirements are at this point. He should KNOW and be trying to do everything in his power (besides just talking)to let you know that he is serious.<p>Don't you see it? Let him do more than breakdown and take responsibility for the affair. He needs to do much more than just start to treat you nicely.... After all, once he gets you back where he wants you, it could change. Only TIME can prove that it is lasting this time.<p>Let HIM prove to you that he is serious....and considering all he has put you through, in my opinion, it will take him quite some time to show you that he has changed for good.<p>I think S_N_L is a little on target here. I think it does happen that the WS wants to keep the BS as a safety net, just in case the relationship does not work out. It does not always mean that they are going to make the changes necessary to have a good marriage. Even though I don't always agree with S_N_L, I think some of his answers are helpful. I think he was only trying to help you consider all the angles. I don't think he intended to hurt you in any way, and I believe you were harsh toward him. Regardless of whether I agreed with them, I would appreciate any input I could receive or anyone taking the time to reply to me on this board. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Susan ]</p>

MOM,<p>Since I was mentioned in a few of these posts, I thought I would add a few thoughts.<p>First of all, I believe strongly in marriage and my marriage vows.<p>I loved my H with all my heart and my family was and is my Number 1 priority.<p>I was shocked and hurt after my H's first affair...before we married I was very independent and had my own life--even tho I knew I loved him.
I always told him I would never put up with someone who had an affair.<p>Well, he had one and I was devastated. We had two beautiful little girls and I was pregnant with our third. My life fell apart and we both went through agony. We he finally decided to recommit to our marriage--I was so relieved and happy. I didn't know about the principles here on MB...and we just went on with our lives. It was never forgotten and he treated me horribly through his withdrawal phase. It took everything in my power to forgive and move on.<p>We did ok for awhile...and then he had another one. The distancing, the emotional withdrawal--all of it started again. Our life revolved around him and his career. Emotionally, he controlled our relationship. He didn't demonstrate care or satisfy my EN's. He did a lot--but didn't care about me. THen we did ok for a little while and he had his third one. Each time--these hit like a sledge hammer. I couldn't believe he could do that to me or our family.....but he did. Then came his remorse, his pledge to love and honor me and 8 months after his retirement--he did it again.<p>I see now---that we needed to get serious help. I do believe that my H. has a personality disorder--and I don't know if it will go away. He has thrown away a women who loves him and has stood by him through thick and thin, he has thrown away the love and respect of 4 great children, he has lost the respect of most of the people he worked with. He has lost the respect of many of his brothers.<p>When I first read your post, I was so happy for you. But SNL is right---really analyze what you need and want from a marriage. Analyze who your H really is. Be wary of words--because from my experience---my H knew exactly what to say to me in order for me to take him back. I guess I was the eternal optimist---I wanted my marriage to work so badly---I wanted my family--that I ignored his behavior. Actions are what you need to believe---and definitely get counseling to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. <p>I hope and pray for the best for you. I wish I had know about this marriage building site---it still might not have made a difference---but it may have saved me from a lot of misery. You will be in my prayers.

mom... Again, s_n_l, I often wonder why you are hanging out on a MARRIAGE BUILDING site.You are entirely too negative and skeptical. <p>snl...Same reason as everyone else. I want to find out the truth re what was happening to me, and how should I proceed. The only difference is I don't do anything just to do it, I have to have good solid reasons that make sense. Marriage itself is of no particular value, neither is saving a marriage just to save it...what is important is the emotional/psychological health of the people in the marriage, and whether the marriage is what serves them (both) best...if a marriage is just a place to park yourself, get ens met, share exspenses...that is not sufficent reason (for me) to be married, yet that is all so many (including me) had....I needed to understand why, and how that works, I think I pretty much got it now. It is interesting how anyone who goes against the grain, challenges the status quo, is seen as negative...actually I am a very positive person, and I take action accordingly....but I am also cautious, and I do not countenance baloney, or wishful thinking, or denial...I see the truth and I speak it, regardless of whether it is popular or not...and if I am wrong, I will gladly change my position (and I have been, and I do), but one will get nowhere in life if one does not challenge things, and challenge them hard.<p>mom...Also, the whole "euphoric" bs thing....did you READ my first post? I am a teenie tiny bit less than euphoric...I'm scared, I'm distrustful and I'm completely on guard. <p>snl..Yes I did, and somehow my posts got taken a little too personally....I was commenting more about your H and the pattern of such ws, and what that means, more than about any naivety on your part...my concern was bs have so much emotion vested in reconcilliation they end up with their own fog....even when they should know better.<p>mom...This man has done unspeakable things to me and my children over the last year. You are right in that I do believe my H has some sort of personality disorder. Part of what he talked to me about yesterday was all the crap he's got inside that's made him the person he's become. I explained to him that I can't help him with that.<p>snl...It is good you won't help....All most of us have to go on is usually 2nd hand (since like most, your spouse has not posted), but from what you have posted (if accurate) your H has very disturbing manipulative patterns, the ones usually present in people who will not, cannot/whatever do anything but act in their own self-interest...normal people, trustworthy people, people with their heads screwed on right, are not all over the map, they make a mistake, their is some short term turmoil between bs/ws maybe a few harsh words (subsequently apologized for) and focus is on fair resolution (be it reconcilliation, or divorce) of the marriage. Sociopathic personalities (and I am not saying your H is or is not), are master manipulators, partly cause they believe their own crap....where you trip them up is on behaviour, watch em close and judge actions, and do not enable them, make them do all their own work (and do it right), and make it clear their will be absolutely no more chances, one mis-step and they are gone...be especially alert for anger, or coercion from them of any kind....if you find yourself eventually walking on eggshells, they gotcha.<p>mom...Also, after this year, and my closer relationship with God, I have MUCH higher standards for what I think my marriage should be. My H is fully aware of what I need in order do even THINK of trying to become friends with him again, and one day H and W again. I probably should have called my post "Frightening Development" instead of incredible. <p>snl...That sounds good, and I think I did react to the positive tone of your post....nothing positive about this at all....yet, all it means is you are about to enter the lions pit, and hope for the best....positive is down the road quite a piece, and you now have to turn back from the disconnecting you were starting with, and be vulnerable again.<p>mom...s_n_l, I would truly prefer not to have you post to me again. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, it's just that I don't think that you truly have Marriage Building on your heart.<p>snl...It is not harsh mom, it is honest of you to say so (what you need), and I will try not to forget. As for what is on my heart, hard to say, I don't think MB should be worshiped, it is just a tool, and to many seem to think it is a gaurantee of some kind, and don't do the work first of decideing whether the marriage is really worth saving, insuring a lot of furture misery, and I really hate seeing people be unhappy. Is a fine line I suppose, between using the tool, and worshiping (so to speak) the tool.... I have used it to my satisfaction, and I really object to being "judged" about it (not by you...but by the counsellors, or spouse)...the supposition is if it doesn't make you become in-love you just aren't trying hard enough, and that is coercive, I don't do well with coercion of any kind....I prefer truth, and let the chips fall where they will..... and the unfortuneate truth is many, maybe even most first marriages should fail, because we do a very poor job of mate selection, and judging prospective mates...<p>Again, best of luck, and keep a weather eye out.... wherever life takes you (or any of us) you will be ok as long as you give up the angst and fear to God....and don't dictate to God what the outcome will be, just be receptive to His will....leastwise that is how I see it.

Here's some "brutal honesty" for you. <p>SNL, JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, MAN!!! This is not a contest to be won as many of your conversations seem to be.<p>MoM has asked you to not reply back to her.<p>Can you not respect that? Or is it irrelevant because she's a woman? Or do you just not give a **** about anybody but number one?<p>I've been holding back over the last several days...but I'm tired of it.<p>You're a smart guy, but not all knowing. You've got a lot of stuff figured out, but not everything. You MIGHT find someone to fit into your current vision of your future marriage, but I doubt it.<p>I have no doubt that you're hurting inside. I only wish you'd spend half as much time looking WITHIN as you do justifying WITHOUT.<p>Try listening without saying a word or replying in any way (that includes eye rolls and big sighs). Try to really HEAR what's being said around you. Try to hear your INNER self, the one who in inherantly good and moral (it's called a conscience).<p>Just give us all a break!<p>And now, let the flames begin.<p>K<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

no flames kevco, just a simple reminder to mind your own business, I am not your punching bag guy.<p>btw, if you feel a need to chew on me, do it by email jbz999@hotmail.com this is not the place for such conversations.<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>