You know what I think, I think that everyone deserves love and happiness. You deserve it, he deserves it and yes even OW deserves it. I think the problem comes in how you go about getting it. From what I know of your story it sounds like x-H is chasing a dream. If he's always looking for that next someone or something to fulfill him he'll never find it. No woman (you or OW) can fill the God shaped hole he so obviously has. 2-EMA's 2-OC clearly he's a man who's searching.<p>I say pray for him. Pray that he finds everything that he needs. Pray for you and for OW too.<p>I think that any marriage can work out if both people want it to. Marriages to OP can do ok if the people are willing to be good true and honest partners one with another. Do you think that x-H has made those kinds of changes? Do you think that he is now able to be a good partner? Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't.<p>As hard as it is I hope to find a way to keep the focus on yourself. I hope you find a way to have the beautiful adundant life that you so richly deserve. xH and OW have lessons to learn in this just like you do. Bless them and leave their lessons to them and God.<p>Take good care of yourself Jo<p>KS

Jo,<p>If God & I were still on speaking terms I pray for him to give you peace but I can wish it for you.<p>My only idea write down everything thing you feel & either burn it or rip it in to tiny parts & throw into the sea.<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Jo i am so sorry for the pain you are suffering.
This must be a nightmare for you, but please dont think your H has found Love that is better than you and him shared and that he never loved you.
That is just so untrue, he may think he is in love, but i doubt it.
Dont know what this OW said to you when you were ill, but if she was that unkind then she will show her true colours in her relationship with your H sooner or later.
And thats when he will probably regret the path he has chosen.
I know none of this helps how you are feeling at this moment, but none of us can see into the future and you just never know what might happen.
hugs to you and take care.
Liz

Jo,
I was where you are almost exactly 12 years ago. Thought I would roll over and die when he told me of their engagement. Well, as you can plainly see, I lived through it, went on to find love again..and infidelity again, but this time [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] thank God, the recovery is good.<p>As completely devestating as his remarriage was to me, as I look back now...it was also empowering. If he hadn't remarried, I wonder how long it would've taken me to get on with my life.<p>I too, had this unbelievable urge to sit down with him and go over events and discussions and pinpoint which were true, and which were just said to satisfy me for the moment. I think it's common to go through this because we need to rebuild self confidence..we need to KNOW that we weren't complete fools. That at some point love was true and honest. But talking to them doesn't do that...we do that within ourselves. At some point you will realize that the love you had for him was honest...and that's enough. Trying to define the level of his feelings for you is a losing battle.<p>Jo, can you see that you have already started that rebuilding of your own self confidence? It comes through loud and clear in many of your postings. It's still pretty fragile, and news like you got today will shake you a bit. But, look at yourself again and all the ways you've grown and become stronger....you are building a life without him...and doing a good job.<p>You will get through this also.
T<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Twyla ]</p>

I feel so hurt because him marrying her is like saying she was right in all the mean things she said to me. That she had a right to do those things because I hurt her by being married to him. That it was my fault he got her pregnant and chose his wife over her son & her. That I was the one who hurt her first by virtue of being married to him, and I deserved to have her say ugly things to me. His marrying her says all those things.

Dear Resilient:
"I feel so hurt because him marrying her is like saying she was right in all the mean things she said to me. That she had a right to do those things because I hurt her by being married to him. That it was my fault he got her pregnant and chose his wife over her son & her. That I was the one who hurt her first by virtue of being married to him, and I deserved to have her say ugly things to me. His marrying her says all those things."<p>Yes, of course. Your logic is impeccable. He justifies and blesses her cruelty by making an "honest woman" out of her. I understand completely. And you are right.<p>And no doubt you are also right in your memories of conversations and events. The WS's develop some kind of split between the original events and the memories of them and the memories they hold while they are in their affairs.<p>It would do no good to remind him. Even if you had videotapes and audiotapes of your whole life together, he wouldn't believe it. He would find some rationalization for why what he believes now is true, and no matter how good your memory is, even with the help of a daily journal or the videotapes, the "truth" would be different now.<p>My H made outrageous statements in our counseling sessions, some of which were so bold that I couldn't control my reaction. My jaw would drop, I would gasp, my eyes bugged out of my head. <p>
You want justice. It isn't going to happen. That hurts. It's not fair. Dang, I know that. <p>Have the conversations in your head, or with trusted friends, or on paper. You could tell him that earth is the third planet from the sun, and if he thought otherwise, nothing you showed him would change his mind.<p>I wish I had morphine to kill your pain, that I could send it in a post. This whole thing is rotten.

Here is a link to the Simple Scoop on Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend: <p>http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Articles/simple_scoop.htm<p>If you feel the need to talk to him - that may be part of the healing process. Write him a letter, rewrite it, draft it, post it and get our input, sit on it for weeks and if necessary send it.<p>Here is part of the link I sent you that may apply to your unique individual situation. Only you know whats best for you.<p>
Limiting Evil<p>One of the other aspects of boundaries that is important is the limiting effect upon evil. Remember, because God does not control people, they are, in a certain way, free to be evil. He does not make them be good. He limits His sovereignty and control in some ways that we do not totally understand. But, even though He allows them to be evil, He limits the effects of their choices. He exercises limits on the effect that their choices will have on Him, His church, the world, etc.<p>He has also given us this duty, to limit the effect that evil choices that people make can have on life. One of the best examples of that is in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the role of us to take a stand and &#8220;bind&#8221; evil as it presents itself. Read Psalms 101 for a great description of how David thought about the things that must be bound so that the evil of others would not &#8220;cling&#8221; to him.<p>In addition, He wants us to limit the effect that the evil is having on their life as well. He wants us to restore those who get &#8220;caught up,&#8221; by evil. We are to put boundaries on the cancer that is destroying them and be redemptive in their lives. (Gal. 6:1)<p>God is about Life. He is about restoring good things. And to do that, evil things must be held in check and transformed. He has given us many tools to perform this function of the salt that seasons the earth:<p>Truth and Commands <p>Confrontation <p>Rebuke <p>Exhortation <p>Forgiveness <p>Group Intervention <p>Consequences <p>Discipline <p>Restoration <p>Limit Setting <p>Separation <p>These are some of the processes that God has told us to do that limit and restore evil. And, they work. The problem is that we do not exercise our control and responsibility to do these things in our significant relationships, the church, and the world at large. As has been the story since the garden of Eden, the mess is largely of our own making. If we would use our self-control to do these things, then we would not have the messes in various aspects of life in which we find ourselves. We have misused our freedom. But, the good news of boundaries is that you can take control back in your own areas of influence, and begin to limit evil and restore life.

Dear Resilient,
I am still at work but thought I would take a peak at the posts.<p>I am so sorry to hear of your situation with your H. I know it is opening up all the old wounds that were just starting to heal for you.<p>I think the other posts are right...you have to let him go. Of course, he loved you...and you loved him. He made a big mistake...and things change and it is awful.<p>The hurt and betrayal is almost unbearable....but I know you will get through this. You
are a great person. I have to run....my daughter just came into my classroom and informed me that her dad brought my two little kids to his apartment and his girlfriend was there. We have a court order against that....I can't believe that SOB....I am so angry....I have to run.

Jo.... u still around?

I feel so hurt because him marrying her is like saying she was right in all the mean things she said to me. That she had a right to do those things because I hurt her by being married to him. That it was my fault he got her pregnant and chose his wife over her son & her. That I was the one who hurt her first by virtue of being married to him, and I deserved to have her say ugly things to me. His marrying her says all those things.<p>Please don't feel this way, Of course he's willing to marry her. she except him just the way he is. He doesn't have to change for the better Jo, you know this he couldn't change for you why would he for her. Before long he going to be doing the same thing to her. If you carry your baggage to the op's house you have to unpack
Some one once said on the Infidelity bb "THE WAY YOU GET A MAN IS THE WAY YOU LOOSE HIM"

Yes ... I'm still here. I talked to SIL. She had no idea about the engagement. She talked to x-H yesterday, he said nothing of the engagement. SIL is shocked and kept sayin "no way, he can't marry her".<p>She told me that she is sorry for never telling me how she felt her brother never protected me or our marriage, that I was the victim in this whole sorted cheating mess, and he is unbelievably weak minded.<p>She told me when they all (SILs) saw them (x-H & OW) this Christmas that OW and x-H were in a big fight, OW was really P/O'd and was mean to him. Shooting him dirty looks and short curt answers, pulling away.<p>SIL said that OW looks very, very ill, pasty gray. Said maybe that's why he's marrying her, so he can gain custody of her OC if she gets worse and passes away. I highly doubt this as he is already deemed his legal father. Gawd, what a reason to marry someone ... <p>I broke down and cried and told her I didn't know what else I could have done better in the situation he placed me in. That all along I did what HE wanted throughout this whole mess and I was the one ending up to blame by the two of them.<p>SIL is very much in shock, she says her brother is once again making a HUGE mistake, one he won't be able to get out of. She said he has never had his own emotional strength. That he has always leaned on females for it after Mom )MIL) died. She said he is marrying OW for entirely the wrong reasons. She said he doesn't realize how manipultaive OW is. She said she worries that her brother isn't thinking of the legal and financial consequences. He's too caught up in the fantasy of the FEELING of a happy family without realizing it takes work. She said his pattern is to bail when the going gets tough and doesn't accept a marriage takes work.<p>I'm going home from work. I can't concentrate.<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

{{{{{{JO}}}}}},
I'm SO incredibly sorry that you are hurting. I am praying that God will wrap his loving arms around you. Remember, Jo, God will NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU. Your XH and OW will be judged....trust me on this one....if they do not repent and ask forgiveness, it will be painful for them down the road. I know that doesn't hurt your heart, but there will be consequences for them Jo.<p>Jo, you need to find someone that DESERVES YOU!!<p>Love you, kiddo!!<p>MOM

Jo,<p>I had a big long reply composed and then changed my mind.<p>Jo, you have been and continue to be a blessing to many of us here at MB. You've helped more people here than you will ever realize. We're all better for having known you, and we're all sorry to see you in such agony. I wish I could say something wise that would help you cope with this, but I can't - partly because I'm in a nearly identical situation myself, and partly because I'm not nearly as eloquent as you are. All I know is that this will pass, the pain will subside, and someday you'll feel better. Small comfort right now, I know.

I know I'm too emotional about this. I just can't imagine HER as the Mrs. Taking my place in every way. I felt it was an honor to be his wife, now I feel like it's was simply a position to be filled until I was replaced.<p>I didn't expect my x-H to stay single forever, but I did believe that he'd come to a place where he'd realize how manipulative she is.<p>I HATE being on this board of INFIDELITY (but I love you guys), I HATE having to be in these circumstances, I HATE what it has done to me. I HATE that I am still effected by this. I HATE that I still feel anything for him.

Hey Jo--<p>Gotta head off to work in a few, but I could not shut the PC down without saying something to you before I go.<p>You are such a strong woman, that is evident. You have a lot of character and a lot of talent. I know that there are better things out there for you in this life__keep that hope alive< think positively<p>i know this is all yada yada and it doesn"t help much< but i want you to understand how much people care about you, that you are a valuable person and you have inspired and befriended many, including me.<p>I remember when I first came onto the board, and it was at the time that you were going to court with Ms Nasty for her abuse towards you> You set an example of how a real lady, yes lady--in the old fashioned sense that is so lacking these days, behaves: Level-headedly, maturely, fairly with self-control and charity. I have thought of you and many times, the thought has stopped me from picking up the phone and screaming at Miss Kitty for what she shamelessly did to my family.<p>So anyways, I just wanted you to know all this and remember that you are very much loved. Hold your head high.<p>Hey, I know that I have stood you up before (like the trip to Arizona--being a single mom for nine months kind of destroyed my state of finances) but maybe this spring when I come back through Seattle (I am moving to Korea and I have to get all my stuff together) we can do lunch. It would be my honor to chat with you someday.<p>Take care--gotta go. Laptop's keyboard is shot and it's making me crazy

Jo, <p>I just logged on and am so sad that you have had a miserable day. Let's stop and look at this another way. I think that rather than xH's emgagement being a validation OW's behavior toward you and proof that she was right, I think that a M between the two of them proves that they are BOTH WRONG! I also see the possibility of xH thinking - Well, I have made such an awful mess of everything, I'd better make it look like I knew what I was doing by marrying OW. and we know what will happen. They will eventually make each other miserable, and the R will not last.<p>But personally, I don't think they will get as far as a wedding. I don't think for a minute xH has found happiness. I think that part of the horrible pain and rejection you are feeling is because the thought of xH being legally M to someone feels like a door to HOPE has been slammed in your face. I can only imagine how secret hopes for a salvaged relationship can linger for BS after D. I think what I would feel is panic if I were a D BS who still had feeling for the WH.<p>I am 100% sure xH was in love with you. I am 100% sure that his choices were not due to deficiencies in you and superior qualities in OW.
I am 100% sure that this mess is due to xH's weaknesses and issues inside himself, not incompatibility between you and him. I am so sorry his bad choices are causing you so much pain.<p>Don't call him. Don't give him the satisfaction of knowing that he can still get to you. You can't change his actions, and it will hurt you to get involved.<p>I wonder what is causing OW to look so bad? Maybe she is really sick, and he feels obligated. In any case, I'll take bets that a couple of years from now these two are history, marriage or not.<p>{{{{{JO}}}}}<p>I'm going to church for a little while. I'll be back later. Try really, really hard to tell yourself it's about HIM. It's not about you.<p>Take care,
Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>I think I wasted my life on someone who never loved me.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Jo - I started reading this post at about 7:00 pm EST US and stopped when you said this.<p>Can you believe me that I have also had this thought?<p>But, then I think - am I the only one harmed? I don't mean my son, or OM's wife and kids - who obviously are just as harmed as I am. What I mean is - is it fair that some lives were shattered at the expense of two selfish ones? Did I really waste my life?<p>No I didn't - and neither did you.<p>This does not mean that our pain is unjustified, that our hurt should just evaporate.<p>If anybody has wasted their lives, it is our WSs. They just don't realize it yet. Sorta like the Enron executives who gambled on long term deception - their time finally arrived.<p>On the other hand, you and I and others like us have learned tremendously from our ordeals. We are better people beause of what we have learned. Our WSs haven't even showed up to class yet.<p>So, no, you didn't waste your life. Sure, it could've been a lot less painful - to say the least. But, it's not wasted.<p>Please join me in starting the rest of our lives over. We have the knowledge to ensure no more time is squandered. Please, Jo, look forward and not to the past.<p>All my admiration,
Dave

One more thing.<p>I actually hope my WS and OM get married. In a weird sorta way, this would certainly prove they're totally wacky for everyone else to see. I already know it, but there's something about the formality of it that would give me comfort.<p>WAT

Estes,<p>15+ years ago OW had silicone implants installed, they leaked and effected her and her two pregnancies in utero (two sons - one of them my H's OC).<p>She now has several things wrong with her (Minier's syndrome, bowel control probs, arthritis, etc.), as does the two boys.<p>She does look like hell (somewhat like a heroin addict), she looks very much older than she is, she's 44 ... I'm sure visiting bars every night certainly must not help. But she claims she can't tolerate sunlight, hence her reason for hanging out in bars.

Jo, my heart breaks for you. You are right, we don't know how you are feeling. Unless someone has been there and done that, we can't know. Nothing I can say will make your hurt go away, but please know how much you are admired. You have helped so many people on this board (including me!). I just wish I could say something profound that would help you when you need it. Hopefully just knowing how many people love and respect you will help a little. You are in my thoughts and prayers Jo.
Hugs
BH