JO,<p>just thinking of you, <p>wishing this would not hurt you so much

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sing:
<strong>JO,<p>just thinking of you, <p>wishing this would not hurt you so much</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Awwwwwe Sing, you must know then ... it does hurt me. Been crying ... ughhhh! Why in the friggin world can't I hate him. <p>When I learned about this yesterday I got physically sick, ran to the bathroom. Guess I'm a bit high strung and somewhat of a whimp.<p>I was cleaning out one of our closets and keep running across more of his stuff. Goes right into the trash.<p>Thank you for thinking of me.<p>Sing, how can your H be engaged to OW while he is still married??? WHAT IS THAT? I mean, what does that say about his character, not to mention hers. Has he been engaged the entire separation? Personally, I think he's trying to make a statement by doing that, either that, or OW is so insecure she thinks this will keep you two from ever being close before the D is final. <p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong><p>Sing, how can your H be engaged to OW while he is still married??? WHAT IS THAT? I mean, what does that say about his character, not to mention hers. Has he been engaged the entire separation? Personally, I think he's trying to make a statement by doing that, either that, or OW is so insecure she thinks this will keep you two from ever being close before the D is final. <p>Jo</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I can explain the history but it take pages. But sort of briefly<p>I think he gave it to her in reaction to something I said. We had been in this mess at the time for over a yr. This was spring 2000. <p>He was back at home after 6 mth of him living in an apt, I can't say serperated because he was at the house all the time, we ate meals, went to church, did family thing, boys sports, vactions, etc together. But nothing was better, he had been home for 2 mths, only in the country 1, he was only seeing OW at work [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] but being the snoop I was I found that he had been her direction 1 wk after work. <p>There was a New BEginning Workshop in TN, close to our families the 1st of JUne, I asked him if he would go, he either said no (what I thought), he later said he just gave a nothing answer, but after thinking about it I told him that if we weren't going to work on rebuilding that when school was out we should tell the boys we were divorcing.(this was late April 2000) He was furious.<p> He thought he was beginning to try, if I had weigthed a day or so I would have seen the beginning efforts (gifts for Easter)but I was at my limit. So it was within a wk of this he bought the OW a ring, she wore it at 1st on her right hand but before we moved to Singapore she was wearing it on her left.<p>The rest is too long & I don't even understand it. But anyway they have been engaged since May of 2000, living togather since June of 2001 (don't think I ever thought they make 6 months) but they seem to be working their problems out. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My STBX has to work it out, he gave up to much to be with her. <p>The really funny thing my STBX was the straightest arrow there was. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We have very little to say to each other anymore, the boys and nothing else. <p>Unlike you I am close to hating him. I wish I was indifferent but I don't think I will ever get over how I feel about the OW. I HATE that she is in my son's lives. I am all ready worrying about OS HS graduation next yr. I don't want her there & OS won't want her there as he knows I don't. But it is stupid that I am stressing over an event more than a yr away.<p>Sorry so long but you did ask. <p>The YS wants me to fry okra, don't know why I almost burned the house down 2 wks ago. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

((((((((((((((((((Jo)))))))))))))))))))))<p>I am so sorry for this new pain. I will send you love and healing light today.<p>I kind of know how you feel, because my H and his OW just stepped up a notch. She is living with him now [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . BUT, I know that the reality of living with someone can only bring out the nasties in real life, and he and her will soon see each other's BAD qualities, and hopefully both LB all over the place.<p>The OC in your situation may end up becoming a barrier between your H and OW...because she is used to rearing the child by herself. Suddenly HE will be putting in HIS way of doing things, and that can be very hard to adjust to, when you are used to doing it all alone.<p>So let's hope that the stat's that Cali quoted on a post yesterday are correct.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

Hi Jo---<p>Just hoping again that a new day helps you to find some peace...<p>It is not fair...it is very hard...but you have been up to the task so far....keep your head high and don't allow this to break your spirit.<p>Many here care about you....<p>Peace <p>E

Hoping today is a better day!!!!

Thanks ELad and Sing, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Everyone has been so kind to me. I'm overwhelmed with how you guys reach out and show your compassion for others when you're in as much, if not more, pain. <p>I am at work today. Feel better being here as opposed to home where I seem to dwell and keep playing x-H tapes in my mind. <p>Sing,<p>I don't mean to pry, but "IF" your H was to show up at your door with his hat in hand and express remorse wanting to try again, would you consider it? I ask because in your post you said he was at one time making a symbolance of an effort to restore things. That's something my x-H never even considered, he was adamant in never wanting to work on our marriage and never changed his mind. <p>Jo

Resilient/Jo:<p>I hope this cheers you up:<p>Planning a wedding is a HUGE stressor on a relationship. Like remodelling a house, it can drive a couple apart. If your ex hasn't seen OW at her ugliest yet, making the plans for this church wedding should bring out the worst in her (her character and personality.)<p>Curious: Is this going to be an evening wedding? Remember, she looks best in barlight. Or are they bringing in neon bar signs and hanging them from the ceiling? (meow)<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</p>

Hi Jo I hope you feeling better today. This was posted on Infidelity.com. hope it helps you and others.<p>'OTHER WOMAN' WHO WON NOW WISHES SHE HADN'T
DEAR ABBY: I am the other woman you rarely hear from. I had an affair with a married man and married him after he divorced his wife.
Please warn your female readers that even when an affair leads to marriage, it isn't going to be what they expect.<p>My husband and I have been married nearly nine years. We have a beautiful daughter. She is the only good thing that has come out of this mess. My husband is selfish and cares only about his own needs. His ex-wife still won't speak to me (not that I want her to), and their son barely acknowledges my existence. All I feel is guilt over breaking up their marriage and remorse for the mess I made of my life.<p>So, Abby, if any of your readers are dating a married man -- give them this warning: Run for your life now! He may seem sweet and caring, but that is only because he likes the chase. Once he gets you hooked, you will be treated the same way he treats his present wife. If you complain, he will tell you that you "asked for it." After all, you knew he was married. -- SORRY FOR EVERYTHING IN TEXAS<p>DEAR SORRY: Oh, the lessons that people learn too late. I find it interesting that you describe only men as craving the thrill of the chase. Women, too, get caught up in the excitement and melodrama of seducing another woman's husband. As in your case, they usually wind up getting less than they hoped and more than they bargained for.<p>Read on for a letter that arrived the day after yours:<p>DEAR ABBY: This letter is for all the "other" women out there. I dated "Ray," who claimed his marriage was over. Ray did leave his wife, but he was dishonest with her. In fact, I have learned some pretty hard lessons lately.<p>A married man (or woman) who pursues a new relationship before putting closure on the previous one displays several character flaws: disloyalty, immaturity, dishonesty, and an inability to commit.<p>I was Ray's third wife. He left each of us under the same circumstances. When the going got tough, he bailed. Like most people, Ray had a pattern. He would meet a woman, start a relationship, then leave his wife. Yes, I won the grand prize, but what a mistake! I would have been better off if I hadn't. I have no doubt that Ray loved me very much. However, he lacks the skills to maintain a healthy relationship. No relationship can be healthy if it starts in a deceitful manner.<p>If people truly love each other, they should wait until closure is put on the first relationship. It will allow time for healing. One cannot commit fully to a new job until notice is given and the allotted time spent. The same holds true for a relationship. -- RAY'S THIRD WIFE<p>DEAR WIFE THREE: To quote a well-known advice columnist, "Oh, the lessons we learn too late." Yours was a painful one. But please don't place the blame entirely on Ray. After all, he had a co-conspirator -- you.<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pauline Phillips and her daughter Jeanne Phillips share the pseudonym Abigail Van Buren. Write Dear Abby at www.DearAbby.com or P.O. Box 69440, Los Angeles, CA 90069.

Wow!!! Thanks Swan's song!!! that's good stuff!!!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bellevue:
<strong>Resilient/Jo:<p>Curious: Is this going to be an evening wedding? Remember, she looks best in barlight. Or are they bringing in neon bar signs and hanging them from the ceiling? (meow)<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hee hee. Or the photographer's assistant will have to heft up the Budweiser sign to get the right lighting for the photos lol. I wish this wasn't happening to you Resilient, my sister went through something similar. Her exh called her up to announce that he was going to marry the OW unless my sister gave him another chance (he divorced HER). She didn't want him at all anymore by then, but just the fact that he was going to marry the OW was a blow to her (she's not sure if they actually did get married). She took solace in the fact that the OW was getting no prize (35 year old guy on his 3rd marriage, emotionally abusive), and I don't think your H's OW is either. I don't think your H has worked through his issues any more than my sister's ex did. Doomed to repeat...

Bellevue and FairyDust,<p>You will NOT believe this!<p>Yesterday I threw out my x-H's neon sign (his name in great big letters) for his single act. It was sitting in the garage. But before I threw it out, I took a bat to it. What a mess.<p>I'm cracking up you guys! Thank you!<p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>But before I threw it out, I took a bat to it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No wonder you sound stronger today! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Life really does get better. You'll get through this.

Ok Jo ~ I'm late to the party...but I didn't see anyone say what I'm gonna say to you now!<p>You are making a couple of assumptions about what his marriage to OW means!<p>1. His marriage means he never loved you.<p>Hmmph. No it does not. It simply means that he is getting married to someone else right now.<p>Did he ever love you? Absolutely I am sure he did, and probably still does. Anyone can fall in love. Love is not enough to make a marriage work, haven't you learned that one by now? Marriage takes skills that most of us didn't have and no one taught us. The problem is, how do you know when you marry that the other person is willing to take responsiblity and learn those skills when you hit a bump - or even a big crevice in the road?<p>Ok, so I can hear you saying to the screen right now...So he didn't love me enough to learn those skills!<p>No no no. Here's something I say alot: The pain of change has to be GREATER than the pain of staying-the-same.<p>Normal healthy people smaller pain tolerances [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your exH just isn't hurting enough yet. For him, its gonna take more than the pain of losing a marriage and a wife to wake him up. Not only that, but in a sick way, OW is enabling him to ignore that pain...never allowing him to truely experience the full impact in the way that you are.<p>None of this has to do with whether or not he loved you. <p>Ok so...2. His marriage means that he agrees with everything the OW said.<p>Bullhonkey Jonas! (don't ask me what that means, it just sounds cool)<p>His marriage isn't about you. You exH isn't you. He doesn't have your values, your emotions, your thoughts. So what you are falling into is the ugly trap of expectations.<p>Expectations say: If he loved you he wouldn't marry OW who said horrible things about you. If he disagreed with what OW said, he would take action by breaking it off with her. And of course he'd come back to you crying with full remorse...right? You are expecting that when he heard those horrible things that the wool would fall of his eyes, and that he'd see what a horrible woman she was. He certainly wouldnt MARRY a horrible woman like that!<p>Thats what YOU would probably do in those situations. It does not mean that anyone else would think, feel or do the same thing.<p>Your xH is who he is: someone who can do the things he is doing. That's all. And thats all you can expect. Maybe he wasn't this man in the past, but he is NOW. And all you can really do is accept current reality of your situation with expectations.<p>Remember...expectations are premeditated resentments.<p>The fact of the matter is that his marriage is probably more about how she makes him feel about himself rather than what she thinks about you.<p>Now...before you beat yourself up for not meeting his need for admiration...listen to me carefully.<p>I'm going to guess this is probably more about the fact that YOU Jo, are a wonderful woman. You are decent, good and loving. Your exH has more than a few personal issues (IE the porn you found recently) that probably makes him feel pretty badly about himself. Being around YOU probably made him feel bad - and I know that its common for people with problems like alcoholism to seek out "lesser" company to feel better about themselves. I am sure that is part of what is going on here. Its easier to hang out with someone that you can think: "At least I am better than she is!". Instead of feeling: "I am not good enough for Jo, she's a far better person, and I can't be that good because I am worthless."<p>Your H is probably afraid of being alone. So he is going to marry someone that enables him to keep from feeling pain over his loss of you, and enables him to keep from looking to hard at his own faults. He may also feel that he doesn't DESERVE anyone better, and that she is the only thing he has left.<p>And in amongst the guilt, he probably is trying to do right by his child - and I'll bet much of his behavior is an attempt to do something right in the mess he's made out of his life. Don't fall into that expecation trap again by assuming that if he is trying to straighten things out that he will dump the OW and come back to you. That's probably not how he views it, and it does NOT reflect on his love for you, or your value as a human being.<p>Now, I could totally be wrong on all the things I just said above. I don't know your H.<p>But I do know that you can't make these assumptions and expectations and not drive yourself crazy. I just tried to give you another POSSIBLE answer that doesn't involve Jo being worthless or wasting her life.<p>(((((((hugs)))))))<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</p>

Rosie,<p>I LOVE YOU!<p>My gosh ... I am stunned. It's like you have been watching our (x-H and mine) situation like a fly on the wall for the last 20 years. <p>I thought NO ONE, I mean NO ONE, could understand this emotionally messed-up convaluted situation. But you do, and you have explained my x-H in a way that I have always suspected but failed at understanding.<p>You may not know this, but you have just released me from a burden I've been carrying around with me for so long, I felt I failed him miserably. But you just validated me, that I couldn't have done any better than I tried. I needed that so bad. I thought and felt if I couldn't get my x-H to admit to his mistakes that it certainly must be my fault.<p>He told me before he left how his mother would have taken those OCs in, even tho he didn't want them at the time. So he was saying I was not a good woman like his mom. Then the last thing he said to me before he drove away for good was "You messed up, you had me lock, stock and barrell". So my feelings have been I failed at being a good woman and I failed at admiring him enough. And now he has a whole family admiring and respecting him, the same folks who hate me and felt all of this is my fault, because my x-H wouldn't come clean with the truth to OW that he decided not to see the OCs.<p>I'm so glad you said these things to me, Rosie. You're someone I have respected and admired for some time. I'm going to read this post every day, I'm printing it and placing it on my fridge, it will save me from constantly beating myself up. <p>God bless you for taking the time to help me help myself. I'm so grateful. <p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

*chuckle* All I did was explain to you the answers that my Al-Anon sponsor gave to me when I asked the very same questions.<p>These were the answers that worked for me. I'm glad they worked for you too!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He told me before he left how his mother would have taken those OCs in even tho he didn't want them at the time, so he was saying I was not a good woman like his mom. Then the last thing he said to me before he drove away for good was "You messed up, you had me lock, stock and barrell". So my feelings have been I failed at being a good woman and I failed at admiring him enough. And now he has a whole family admiring and respecting him, the same folks who hate me and felt all of this is my fault, because my x-H wouldn't come clean with the truth.<hr></blockquote><p>
As long as you were sitting around allowing him to make you the scapegoat (which you aren't anymore) you were enabling him. How? You were the person he could blame for all his problems. While you were available to blame, he didn't have to look at himself.<p>Seems your H is very good at deflecting pain - which again, says that the problem is HIM, not you. <p>Just remember that: Just because he says it, or anyone else thinks it, doesn't make it true.<p>Or even more concisely: His truths don't have to be your truths.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Rosie said:
You were the person he could blame for all his problems. While you were available to blame, he didn't have to look at himself.<p>Seems your H is very good at deflecting pain - which again, says that the problem is HIM, not you.<hr></blockquote><p>In x-H's pain deflectment (a new word lol), are you perhaps saying that the said "pain" was to take on the responsibility for what was his?<p>What I'm going to say may sound like my x-H is an evil person, yet he's really not ... but, the only time he would take responsibility for something he did that was not good, would be when it would benefit him in some way. And he only started behaving that way after his mother passed away. Before that he was more of a stand up kinda guy. <p>Jo

Jo and Bramble Rose,<p>The wonderful thing about the Boards is that so many wise people are reading and commenting on them. I love Bramble's take on all this, which was quite different from mine.<p>Where else could you get such thoughtful replies? Certainly not at your job, church or school, most of us aren't baring our souls over the water cooler or in Starbucks. <p>Finding MB was one of the unexpected blessings after D-day.<p>I certainly don't want my business being talked about "on the street," and so most people who know us have no idea what things are really like with us. We really are blessed here, really and truly. I've learned so much from the MB people.<p>Wonderful, Bramble! Enjoy your party.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> are you perhaps saying that the said "pain" was to take on the responsibility for what was his?<hr></blockquote><p>Yep. If it was YOUR fault that he did something bad, then he didn't have to examine himself very closely for his own character defects.<p>Victimhood can be a very comfortable place for many people.<p>You are probably pretty safe to assume anytime you hear someone say: "He/she MADE me do it!" you are listening to a self-made victim who is unable to cope with the pain of self examination and so deflects responsbility to others.<p>Which meant no matter what you did, as long as you were in his life, you were going to be the scapegoat. I'm sure you did your share of lovebusting, we all do, but it does sound to me like there's more going on here than just lack of emotional needs.

bramble...I'm going to guess this is probably more about the fact that YOU Jo, are a wonderful woman. You are decent, good and loving. Your exH has more than a few personal issues (IE the porn you found recently) that probably makes him feel pretty badly about himself. Being around YOU probably made him feel bad - and I know that its common for people with problems like alcoholism to seek out "lesser" company to feel better about themselves. I am sure that is part of what is going on here. Its easier to hang out with someone that you can think: "At least I am better than she is!". Instead of feeling: "I am not good enough for Jo, she's a far better person, and I can't be that good because I am worthless.<p>snl...I have been watching all the support jo, and glad you are getting it, I just can say ditto...if is ok, I wanted to briefly comment on something br said...<p>br, re the above, that is part of fit, even though it seems yucky, it reflects the fact that people are people, imperfect, and that saying we should all just fix ourselves is really not going to accomplish a whole lot (usually)...but whatever we fix or don't, we are what we are, and most want to have a partner, so one should choose accordingly...if your analysis of jo's H is correct, it is possible he "chose" for the very reason you say (and jo, br is absolutely correct, this is not about your inadequacy, it is about who your H is, and what he chooses), and in fact this ow is his "fit"....<p>You see this sort of thing quite often actually. I know of two people who did this (one my father)... the other was married to an abusive alcoholic, who beat her regularly for 15 years, and destroyed her self-esteem...to make a long story short she finally escaped him, he went on to remarry (still denying he was ever the problem and accusing her of deserting him)...he married another alcoholic who is a wild cat and regularly beats the sh** out of him, they get along fine in some crazy way....ya know?