Private Lies
by Frank Pittman<p>Infidelity - From Romance to Remarriage<p>All logic would dictate that second marriages should be more successful than first. The choices are being made by people that are sadder, but wiser, more mature, more experienced and more cautious. They know themselves better. They should be better able to handle disappointment and frustration. They should have sowed their wild oats, and come to see life as less distractingly mysterious. They should be readier to settle down.<p>It may be that second marriages in general do have advantages over first marriages. Those that have been widowed, those that have been divorced for years, often seem to have success with second marriages. It may be that the disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop in between. There is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wreaking affiars. It is possible for them to work, but it is unlikely they will do so. <p>In my practice, while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only a fourth marry the affairee. Even then, three-fourths of those romantic marriages end up divorced. There is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years than that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Triangles
by Lana Staheli<p>(typist note: Gawd I detest typing the name LANA)<p>Remarriage<p>Remarriages do not turn out to be happier than first marriages. In fact, there is very little difference in the degree of happiness or unhappiness from one marriage to the next. However, remarriages are much less stable than first marriages. Ex-wives and ex-husbands who know the affair occured prior to their divorce carry a lifetime of resentment and hostility toward the new spouse, making the new marriage even more difficult.<p>While affairees believe their love will conquer all of life's challenges, the duration of affairee-remarriages is short and long-term divorce rate is over 75%.<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

jo...Infidelity - From Romance to Remarriage<p>quoting Frank Pittman<p>frank...All logic would dictate that second marriages should be more successful than first. The choices are being made by people that are sadder, but wiser, more mature, more experienced and more cautious. They know themselves better. They should be better able to handle disappointment and frustration. They should have sowed their wild oats, and come to see life as less distractingly mysterious. They should be readier to settle down.<p>snl...This comes up from time to time, but it is based on false assumptions, that being everyone involved in a marital failure has learned something...if that were true we'd have no one drinking and driving a second time, no one abusing a spouse after being arrested once, no one doing drugs again (after whatever), no one riding without a seatbelt after an accident...and so forth and so on...the notion that an experience automatically increases ones life skills is false. If we could pass everyone (married, or even in any committed relationship) through a filter which winnows out those who haven't learned anything from the experience, and then track the rest in second marriages/relationships we would find a higher success rate than first marriages, we would have to, cause by definition they are now more skilled at making such a choice. <p>fp...It may be that second marriages in general do have advantages over first marriages. <p>snl..absolutely.<p>fp...Those that have been widowed, those that have been divorced for years, often seem to have success with second marriages. <p>snl..I would have to see actual studies, I doubt it (for widowed/er), long term divorced fall into the whether they learned anything group, but the fact that they allowed time to heal, and absorb their lessons suggest they are more likely to choose better. Should be roughly the same as first marriages (widowed/er), maybe greater as they age, but that is offset by the pool of available mates (more who will have been married earlier in life), many of who are chronically dysfunctional, which is why they are divorced and available. The widow/er has not gained much insight into how a to choose a mate, but they do have (maybe) a history of living something that worked and that helps.<p>fp...It may be that the disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop in between. <p>snl..That's for sure.<p>fp...There is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wreaking affiars. It is possible for them to work, but it is unlikely they will do so.<p>snl...It is a complex life experience for everyone involved (infidelity), can be a tremendous learning experience....human bonding is difficult and fraught with opportunity to err. Infidelity leads to many outcomes, the necessary triggering event to restore a marriage which otherwise would never have moved off dead center....an opportunity to wake up, realize you choose folks with particular kinds of personality disorders and work on yourself to break that cycle, used as a means to escape an abusive marriage (then you can start healing, hopefully), occassionally leads to a stable nurturing second marriage,....IMO the those who just try to categorize affairs as a "thing" and then lable it as bad, and react accordingly, do not understand affairs are an integral part of human behaviour for many complex and healthy (from a species standpoint) reasons. It true many "disasters" that befall human beings are blessings in disguise, if you view them as a life experience and something to be learned from, not rejected outright.<p>fp...In my practice, while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only a fourth marry the affairee. <p>snl...That makes sense, if marriages are often entered irresponsibly by people who have not done effective pre-marital assessments (which is probably true for most for several reasons), then it stands to reason affairs would fail just as often, for the same reasons, even moreso cause is even harder to apply proper effort to assessing, and are more likely then to be less stable.<p>fp...Even then, three-fourths of those romantic marriages end up divorced. There is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years than that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.<p>snl...Yes, for the reasons above, and if you have some history and kids (which are a pressure to make something work with a particular individual) with someone else, they may look like the best practical choice as the affair marriage fails (for the same reason 1st marriages fail)...I do think such outcomes have little to do with love though, and are essentially settleings, accomodations, a means of finding stability without searching anymore....hopefully the "experience" means the two will work at the remarriage, protect it (as one must in a settled marriage) and live out rest of lives at least reasonably secure, and content... oftentimes I suspect it is the best we can do in life.<p>jo, quoting Lan* something.....Remarriages do not turn out to be happier than first marriages. In fact, there is very little difference in the degree of happiness or unhappiness from one marriage to the next.<p>snl..Not sure of context, but if she is saying all marriages only vary slightly in happiness she is out of her mind. If she is saying little difference in range of happiness of 1st vs 2nd marriages I would agree, cause they are created by the same human beings for the same reasons, to bond and not be alone.<p>ls...However, remarriages are much less stable than first marriages. Ex-wives and ex-husbands who know the affair occured prior to their divorce carry a lifetime of resentment and hostility toward the new spouse, making the new marriage even more difficult.<p>snl..I disagree (for reasons allready stated above) about stability...if it were true, no second marriage would work, since many do, it is why some do vs why others don't, the reasons for failure are exactly the same whether 1st or 2nd marriage. The implication of this whole mindset is that one should not leave a first marriage, cause the 2nd will be no better, and you have all that pain and bad consequence as well, this is of course nonesense, and suggests no one should never divorce....we know divorce is an integral part of life and personal growth, because marriage often does not work for many reasons...so what does one do? Just become a nun or monk? Or does one just accept they are "property" of another and must live their entire life that way cause they can never expect life to work any better...that is nonsensical, and not borne out by what we all inherently know about being human.<p>ls...While affairees believe their love will conquer all of life's challenges, the duration of affairee-remarriages is short and long-term divorce rate is over 75%.<p>snl..Anyone, first marriage, 2nd marriage, affair, who thinks love will "fix" who they are, who their spouse is, is doomed for sure. That is the FIRST lesson one needs to learn. The second is that we use the word love way too loosely, and is often not love at all but various flavors of dependentcy or control.<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I just want to preface this w/ the fact that I am extremely HORMONAL.... <p>I just love, SnL, how you can argue w/ those who have done anecdotal, qualitative and quantitative research... not only argue... but state out and out that they are wrong...<p>WRONG!!!<p>of course, I shouldn't be surprised... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You can argue 'fit' till the cows come home (and I don't own any...so it will be a LOOONNNGGG time), but in the end the reason a marriage doesn't work is because one or both persons won't allow it to... they allow themselves NOT to fit... they allow themselves to close off and shut down. They don't live in the spirit of love... They make it all about themselves and continue to look inward instead of outward... They are more concerned w/ themselves and their happiness instead of living as God has instructed us to... SELFISH>>> SELFISH>>>> SELFISH>>>><p>I could go on... but I know it will only open me up to another one of your long-winded, close-minded replies....<p>Hugs,
Cali

Your Hormones ROCK, Cali!<p>Have Lora on the phone and read your SnL reply to her, she agrees..... YOU ROCK!<p>Lora says SnL could argue with a deadman, and Lora is hormone-free.<p>Ha Ha on you SnL!<p>Jo<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

No applause... just throw Midol... LOL...<p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cali

Actually Cali,<p>I would like to hear more, but don't want you and snl to get into it so e mail with it if you want. <p>I had a long discussion with WH tonight along about the same line as you just wrote.<p>But it does look like I will be in the stats that are divorced and WH marries OW....UGH that just bites!!!<p>Dawn [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Most of what I believe is Biblical... but also comes from don Miguel Ruiz... The Four Agreements and The Mastery of Love .<p>http://www.miguelruiz.com/articles/article-miguel-artofloving.htm<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
The Art of Loving<p>by don Miguel Ruiz<p>I ask you all, what does it mean to be a lover? Basically it means one who makes love. And a lover is the one who creates love. When you eat, you make love. When you walk, you make love. When you speak, you make love. Any activity is making love. Everything is about making love. Then I bet that most of you do not even know you can be lovers in this way. The times that you have made love it was without awareness. What I am calling a lover is not exactly a lover the way most of you understand me. You can be a lover without sex. It's about being in love in every moment, for no reason at all. On the other hand, you can call someone your lover when that person treats you poorly, gives you his or her anger, their jealousy, their drama. Is that really a lover? No, that person is not a lover. A lover is someone who gives you love, not his or her garbage. <p>Now the question is, are you a lover? What is it that you give to your partner? Do you own your partner? Do you want to enslave your partner, to control your partner? Is that really love? Are you really a lover? I don't think so. But it's not your fault, because you never really learned to be a lover. You learned to be the way you are from everyone else before you. It is important to understand this: you cannot give to another what you do not possess yourself. If you do not have love, how can you pretend to give love? What most people call love is need. Need for companionship, need for sex, need to be needed. We want someone who needs us. We do not want to be alone. If someone needs us, we can justify our existence. My children need me. My parents need me. My beloved needs me. My dog needs me. And that's what we call love. Well, this is not love. <p>Even worse, if someone is sending you love, your belief system can distort everything they are sending to you. As a result, what you reflect back to them is not love, but your emotional poison and fear. And that fear and emotional poison comes out because that is what the belief system eats. When you eat love, the false beliefs have to die. By loving, you are cleaning your belief system. Then as a mirror you become more and more clear. When that happens you can reflect love clearly and love makes everyone and everything beautiful. When you are making love, your soul is eating love. <p>We need to take the risk to be in love again. It's time to start a brand new romantic relationship with yourself. The challenge is for you to treat yourself better than you would treat any lover in your life. Fall in love with yourself and love yourself unconditionally. I want you to imagine how different your life would be if you loved yourself so much, that you never rejected yourself again. The problem is we reject ourselves for nothing. We create the whole drama of our lives for nothing. We do not enjoy our life because we believe that we don't deserve to be happy. That we don't deserve love. That love hurts. But this is not the truth. Love gives you the most pleasure ever. Because you, the real you, your Spirit, your soul, eats love. <p>Imagine that the love that you feel for yourself, is so strong and so powerful, that you never disrespect yourself again. You love yourself so much, you honor yourself in everything you do, and in everything that you think and say. And in everything you create! You love yourself so much that every activity of your life becomes a ritual of love. In every bite that you eat, you enjoy the smell, texture and flavor. Imagine that you love yourself so much that your entire life is about giving yourself all the pleasure in the universe. That you know that you are here to enjoy every moment, every second of your life. Imagine you love yourself so much, that you trust yourself completely. The love that you have for yourself is so big, that it is coming out of you, through your eyes, through the manifestation of everything that your do in your life. You see everything through the eyes of love. And you perceive things the way they are, not the way you want them to be. Without distorting anything. You love yourself so much, you know creating conflict with another person will hurt you as well. You love yourself so much, that you want to enjoy the ones that you love. You want to love every interaction with your parents or your brother or sister. You want to love every moment with each one of your children, with each one of your friends. Your love is so strong that when you have a romantic relationship, and you make love, you know that you are making love with yourself through the other person who is with you. You know they are a mirror for you the human, and you the divine. Whatever you send to your partner, will be reflected back to you, because they are a mirror. The more love you give, more of the real you (love) returns back to you. Imagine you no longer have to live your life with resentments. With guilt, shame, or blame. You don't even have the need to forgive, because you don't take anything personally any more. <p>I want you to imagine that you can say yes when you want to say yes and you say no when you want to say no. And it's nothing personal. I want you to imagine that when you love yourself so much, there is no way that you will ever accept anyone's disrespect, or dishonor. You would never allow anyone to touch your body without love. I want you to imagine how different the dream of your life could be if you loved yourself unconditionally. Imagine that you no longer need anyone to tell you how good or bad, or right or wrong you are. You can trust the voice of your spirit, and live your life with integrity. Is there any reason why you shouldn't start a brand new relationship with yourself? Will your belief system allow you to take the risk? I want you to open your heart and take the risk right now. I want you to feel all that love for yourself. Don't believe yourself when you say that love makes you vulnerable. It's not true. Love makes you strong. The voice of your integrity comes right out and lets people know that it's not okay to mistreat you. And you can communicate this without anger, even with a smile on your face. Take the risk. Love is food for your soul. Enjoy! <p>Now let's talk for a minute about relationships with others. Some of my apprentices have asked me "Miguel, how come I never can find a good man/woman? They always turn out to be losers." Well. I tell them, there are two kinds of humans. The ones who are like bees, and the ones who are like flies. The ones like flies, they're searching for garbage. They are searching for poo. They are poo-eaters. The bees, they look for nectar. They go into the most beautiful flowers, and they drink the nectar and create honey. Then nectar attracts bees and poo attracts flies. If we understand that, then we can have awareness in our relationships. If someone is trying to control you with jealousy obviously that person is a fly, a garbage eater. If someone respects you the way you are and treats you with honor, they are obviously a bee looking for nectar. Then when you go into a relationship, what are you looking for? Are you are looking for nectar, or you are looking for drama and emotional garbage? Are you needy for someone to send all your poison and anger to? Are you needy for someone to send your opinions to so you can make them miserable? If you are doing that, you are a fly. If you are a bee, then you are looking for joy, happiness, and love,. You want to have fun and to enjoy life. You are not looking to control others. If poo is what you are offering, only flies will come to you. Don't expect bees to come around! When you interact with people cursing, unhappy, with anger and envy, with all those addictions, you only will attract flies. Then you cannot blame the flies, because you are attracting them! But if what you have is nectar, everyone will want to be near you.flies and bees, but you don't have to accept the flies. You can see they are flies. Flies can go for nectar but really they are looking to turn nectar into poo! They don't appreciate the nectar. It's about having awareness and making choices. You need to see things the way they are, not the way you want or wish them to be. You make the choice to date a fly. You make the choice to act like poo! In order to go and have a successful relationship outside of yourself, first you need to clean up your beliefs and emotional garbage. You can only give to another what you have inside yourself. If you squeeze an orange, you get orange juice. If you squeeze a human made of emotional poison, guess what you get? Then, if you have poo inside you, guess what you will put out. It is time to be your true self. You don't have to pretend to be what you are not. What is important is that you present your integrity to the world. What you project is what they will perceive. <p>I am going to give you all some homework. What I would like you to do is to fill the bathtub and take a bath. Pretend the bathtub is filled not with water, but with love. Imagine you are just floating in a sea of love. Now get a little washcloth, and we will create a ritual with it. I want you to imagine that you can remove all your emotional poison with the washcloth in this ritual. Wet the cloth and rub it lovingly from your head to your toes, letting it absorb all the poo and everything you have done that has gone against yourself. It's about forgiveness. Now rinse the cloth in the bath filled with love and use the cloth to rub the love all over yourself. Cover yourself in love. This is the night of your honeymoon with yourself. You will make love with yourself tonight. To make love means to create. You will create love for yourself tonight. By doing that, it's a ritual that is purifying you. It's a cleansing. After this ritual you will feel clean and pure. After the ritual you will deserve to be loved by you. Can you do it? <p>Lastly, you need to rediscover yourself. There are so many possibilities that exist within the relationship you have with yourself. You just have to choose. Then this is the first step, the re-encounter with yourself. The beginning of the new romance. Start practicing and practicing all that love for yourself. As a result of your self-love, all of your outside relationships will transform automatically. Practice treating yourself like the best lover you have ever had. Give yourself the best, treat your body the best you can. Give yourself massages, whatever, to look and feel beautiful for yourself. Do it just because it makes you feel good. It's not about competing with anyone else in the world for a partner anymore. It's not about pleasing anyone else anymore. It's about treating yourself. Give your body the best food you can and the foods you enjoy. It's about giving yourself all the comfort you can. Even the luxury, why not? You deserve it. You work so hard, take care of yourself. Give your body what your body needs. And give your mind what your mind needs. But most of all give your soul what your soul needs. And what it needs is you, which is love. Live your life in total romance!
<hr></blockquote><p> Just want to reiterate that YOU is NOT the selfish YOU, but the giving YOU. CHANGE STARTS W/ YOU... When you start to walk in love and act in love, it is difficult for those around you NOT to respond... this is about setting LOVING boundaries not REJECTION and putting up WALLS and arguing about FIT or GOING outside of YOURSELF to another to make yourself feel good. It is about finding the love WITHIN yourself and NURTURING it and YOU... <p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

cali, hormonal? Ok, that is real and a factor in communication, thanks for the honesty [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] btw, the picture was nice, you guys look like a happy couple, is so interesting to put faces to the rhetoric.<p>cali.. I just love, SnL, how you can argue w/ those who have done anecdotal, qualitative and quantitative research... not only argue... but state out and out that they are wrong...<p>snl..Heck, we can all do that, nor do I think I am a babe in the woods, I have been studying human behaviour for um.... probably 40 years, started when I was very young, trying to figure out why people do what they do, and I have read/studied extensively....but maybe I don't no nuttin, could be.<p>cali...You can argue 'fit' till the cows come home (and I don't own any...so it will be a LOOONNNGGG time), but in the end the reason a marriage doesn't work is because one or both persons won't allow it to... they allow themselves NOT to fit...<p>snl...Chalk that up to an agree to disagree, I flat out don't think human beings are put together that way, and I conduct my life accordingly, and am willing to live with the consequences, likewise each of us has to do the same. I simply do not believe it makes no difference who you are married to, that is genetically wrong, and nonsensical to boot...if it was true, why do we date, why do we even want to date, why don't we just get in line and marry whoever is next in the other line....why do some people pull us and some push us away? <p>cali...they allow themselves to close off and shut down. They don't live in the spirit of love... They make it all about themselves and continue to look inward instead of outward... They are more concerned w/ themselves and their happiness instead of living as God has instructed us to... SELFISH>>> SELFISH>>>> SELFISH>>>><p>snl..Ok, just for the heck of it, lets say love is just a decision...so you decide not to love someone, and love someone else (and your spouse does the same of course, cause it is just a decision, no bg deal)...what's the problem? Why be upset over it?<p>cali...I could go on... but I know it will only open me up to another one of your long-winded, close-minded replies....<p>snl...Succinct enough?<p>cali...Hugs,<p>snl..Thanks

To get back to original question!<p>Just add my story (see the signature) to unsuccesful ones. <p>It seems that my xH's second marriage will be the happier and longer than our's was maybe even producing more kids.

Great post, Cali!

cali, re ruiz, have to be honest I do not find such things (and that kinda style) of much use, it reminds me of the new age kind of approach to everything...I prefer nuts and bolts stuff about real people and real behaviour, things like Dr phils Life Strategies (although I can't stand Dr Phil himself)...and MB stuff (although I think they are too submissive about the significance and meaning of affairs, and what love actually is, vs settling), there behavioural modification, and what "in-love" actually looks like is right on the money. Getting in a bathtub of love is well.... to put it bluntly ..stupid, and useless.<p>However, I do agree that one cannot love another unless they love themself, I wouldn't state/prove that how ruiz does, but I do think it is one of the fundamental truths. It is hard to seperate normal self-doubt and what level of self-esteem = loving oneself....but lack of care and protection for oneself (self-love) I suspect is at the root of many co-dependentcies...and I think that is why such marriages occur. There are lots of pyschologically dysfunctional people out there, as well as psychologically immature people...and the ones that need someone to dominate, or validate them, selectively seek out people vulnerable to co-dependentcy and try to get them to marry (usually by wearing several kinds of masks), it is this kind of marital pathology that is part of what I mean about fit too, a wrong kind of fit...yet one people will live in for a lifetime...<p>just read the boards and stories, you see this over and over and over...the enabling of spouses who will not go deep with you emotionally, making excuses for them, calling them typical men (often), or having foo issues, or lack of communication issues, etc. etc. excusing them symptomatically, when it really is a far deeper problem. People living lifetimes just deciding to "love" these people while themselves are emotionally starved...why is that? Why do people live like that? Well, yes, part of it is they don't love themself enough to say this is not right, and to end it with such individuals, they fear no one else will love them. If a marriage is not essentially equal, that means an even exchange of emotional/pyschological resources, nurturing, vulnerability etc... if one is making ANY excuses for the other to justify an inbalance, something is seriously wrong, and the marriage is not about love. I think Dr. Phil said this (in so many words) and MB implies it.<p>Anyways, I have a um.... experience base over many here cali, in that I have been in the homes of 10-15,000 people of all kinds, a true cross section of humanity (at least american humanity), not to conduct studies, and so is anecdotal, but I gotta tell you, approaches like ruiz might as well be gibberish, has nothing to do with reality, how people actually choose and live with each other, you (and most here) have no idea what the real world is like (in the sense of how people really live together under a variety of circumstances). I read all this stuff (self-help books), enter discussions here (and elsewhere) about how nurturing marrriage, is just a matter of educating someone to a few rules and doing it... and then I am in another home, have some conversation with folks (getting a feel for their lives, and who they are) and the contrast is almost shocking, people do not live, or are even capable of living, these ways, just plain flat out, ain't going to happen. That interests me, why is that, there must be more too it, and there is, and the answers lie in fit (genetics essentially, with about 10-20% enviroment) , and only sligtly in behaviour modification or "eddicating" folks to how it "should" be..... people do not act against their "best" interests on purpose (or violate the psychological profiles ruiz, MB, Dr Phil, and a host of others say are healthy)... they do so cause they are who they are, and only very little change is possible... change is good, and one should strive for it, but of much more importance is recognition, understanding what you have to work with, and what you can expect from that, and where you set the life bar...and that is all about fit. Don't you wonder why even something as specific as MB doesn't work that much? (it only works "well" after a filter is applied, it only works for couples that both want it to work, and have the capacity to do the work) It isn't cause people don't try, or aren't committed, and are therefore defective re marriage, it is cause there is a lot of diversity (some good some bad), and it makes a huge difference who you attempt to achieve marital intimacy with, and how you define success at doing it.<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

FWIW,<p>In thinking about the likelihood of reconciliation, it would seem obvious that much depends on the personalities involved. Factors that would definitely skew the probabilities include:<p>- Does the WS show / admit any guilt?
- Does the WS still really do love the BS on some level?
- Does the WS see that they do have a solvable problem?
- The amount of contact between WS and OP
- The amount and degree of LB'ing that occurs between OP and WS
- The amount and degree of LB'ing that occurs between BS and WS
- The degree to which changes are demonstrated in BS (Plan A)
- The amount of genuine care and attention that BS shows WS (Plan A)
- The efficiency of execution of Plan B
- The suddenness of Plan B
- The attitude projected by BS (strength, courage, caring, etc.)
- Is the WS the type of person to want to grow and learn?
- Does the WS have a good support group who're constructive?
- The level that EN are met by both BS and OP<p>As such, assigning a probability for all cases is only guessing at an average across the whole population. I think on an individual case, it can range from 0% to 90%, but overall distribution is not likely a bell curve - if everyone knew about MB, maybe more so.<p>So really, I think that the BS becoming a keen observer is important. To recognize positive signs probably should imply that the BS should be encouraged, and continue to try. If there are none, well - it's true - one might be wasting their time.<p>I was thinking about this specifically because I have an example of a friend who is now divorced. He had an unfaithful wife - she was a very mean WS - was very verbally abusive after d-day, basically saying that she was justified in her A because my friend was such a pr***. She left him immediately, and I believe eventually moved in with OM. My friend and his WW continued to talk 2-3 times a month, even talked about working on things occassionally. His WW showed all the classic symptoms of fogese, plus showed a fear of being alone. He filed for divorce along the way, hoping it'd snap her out of it. She didn't budge, and the divorce was final about 6 months or so after she left. Remember that she was living with OM now.<p>Suddenly one day, about a month or two after the divorce was final, he got a phone call from his WW. She was in tears, begging and pleading to come home. She was willing to do ANYTHING to make it work now. My friend says he suspected she was doing this to manipulate him, but I don't believe that necessarily. I think his WW had her moment of "revelation", and had come out of the fog. I think he COULD have had her back at that point, but he was DONE, so it didn't happen.<p>She eventually stayed with OM, recently had his child. I don't think they're actually married however. In the end, I suspect they stayed together because WW and OP are very needy people - fear of being alone, etc. Whether they're happy - that's a good question. I'd have to question it - there was a lot of potential between him and his W - I knew OM, and he's not as "good" a person.<p>So yes, this was a case of WS and OP living together, and it could have quite possibly resulted in reconciliation. It didn't because my friend had enough, and possibly if he knew about MB and the dynamics of A's, he might have stuck it out longer. I would never have suspected that his W would have come out of the fog.

Here's MAEZY's story. It appears her H is returning after 1 year living with OW.<p>**************************************************
MAEZY's Update - 02.25.2002<p>My H is moving in today after 12 long months living with his OW. I would be jumping for joy, except that he is being totally honest with me(which is good) but he tells me that he is going to wean her off of him (she's clinging to him desperately). He tells me that he will see her as a friend to help her through getting over him. He's promised me that it will be 100% over in 3 months time, maybe shorter. He is totally honest with me and that is why I have agreed to let him move home as it is a huge step for him to move out of her house. If things do not go my way, I can ask him to leave again.

I know this is far from an ideal situation but I feel like is is realistic.<p>Do you people think this situation could work? He says she is driving him crazy and that he has to get out of there. Please give advice.
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Haven,t been on boards for a while, but this caught my attention. I am M 30yrs this year H moved out 2yrs ago next aug. His OW has been living with him 1yr now. We have 3 kids 23,24,27.
H has no contact with them( altho adored them) they want nothing to do with him since his A. None of us had any idea of H a. til he told us.
Originally he wanted house sold etc, now I hear nothing, we both contacted solicitors, he did after me, but never has he mentioned D.
I am just beginning to pull myself together after 2 yrs almost of Hell. I have stopped ph, texting or letters. What will happen, I just don,t know, but like U I am not encouraged by stats. H I beleive had MLC big time, but if he doesn,t even try to contact his kids I really have little hope. I love him as much as ever and get so lonely still, but somehow the flame never dies. Sorry I am not a good stat. Had I known about his unhappiness before he started his A with a barmaid maybe we could have worked it thro.
Oh yes I got the I still love u but..... bit.
He has provided for me as before, apart from hollidays, etc but What He Wants Now!!! Well I wish I knew.
Be nice / or maybe not to see a final total of ones that made it.
Me 53 H 55. M 30yrs.Known each other since we were 5, Naej,