I had an interesting discussion today (IRL) about an issue which comes up periodically here as well....that being the nature of these boards, and what is acceptable content. Everyone pretty much understands MB is about resolving marital disharmony, and using MB principles to do so...that frames the content... the boards could be restricted to a strict content of only MB stuff, and it's application, but a perusal of the threads past and present suggests the board moderator(s) allow a fairly wide range of topical issues, pretty much anything related to marital resolution (as opposed to say infidelity boards that promote EMR etc.)...this includes a lot of discussion about the merits of marriage...for example the issues of verbal abuse, obsessive behaviours, serial affairs, how religious beleifs factor in, etc. and when does one say enough is enough...there is even a board for the discussion of divorce issues...<p>In the pursuit of this objective (marital resolution) thousands of posters (with thousands of mindsets, and temperaments) come here to find their answers...inevitably there will be clashes of hurt feelings, charges of insensitivity, differences of opinion (and how those differences are expressed), even charges of fraud, misrepresentation, and so forth...the resultant conflict is distracting and that itself feeds further annoyance, irritation. The boards purport to be egalitarian, and desire to service all who come in honest search... so how do we meet the needs of disparate individuals, some who seek comfort and support, some who prefer brutal honesty and all opinions, and everything in-between...and how to maintain a level of sensitivity reflective of the many injured hurting people who come here? An alsmost impossible task it would seem due to the sheer volumne of posters, and wide range of communication needs they have....<p>The conflict breaks down simplistically into whether this is a support board, or a debate board.... it is neither, and it is both, and therein lies the difficulty...no matter who you cater too, others are going to be left out.... a brutally honest kick in the pants to one poster (who wants it) may reduce another participant to suicidal feelings as they read it....conversely those who only profit from brutal, honest feedback are going to feel frustrated at a bunch of hugs, and all will be ok, and we feel your pain.....they want ANSWERS to one of lifes most difficult endaeavours...marriage.<p>Neither group really wants to be neglectful of the other, and all (I think for the most part) are aware and try not to interfere in the others needs.... but with the overlapping of posts, and the huge annonymity of the venue, it is impossible not to step on toes..... the most typical being those who speak frankly, and without sugar-coating usually getting chastised by those who cringe at this much debate, honest appraisal, truth-seeking etc... (mostly cause the other group is hardly going to complain about sympathetic, but little content posts). This is not all that goes on of course, there is a large body of posting that is pretty much on topic and explanatory (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) re MB principles and applications.<p>So what to do what to do? It was suggested that maybe it is time to add another board, one specifically for the purpose of more debate oriented content re marriage and MB principles. Where there is much less expectation of a need for sympathetic, posts.... where one can seperate such questions as why be married and when does MB not work...from newly injured (by infidelity) folks who come here just looking for hope, and don't really want or need to deal with these kinds of questions... Also it could provide a "boundary" between those who want to focus only on "making" it work, not anything suggestive of it won't, or shouldn't work. The other folks who need answers to why do this at all, and how far to go with it, are not left out that way either..... It is all well and good when a bs and ws are truly committed and on the same page and just need help/support... but there are a lot of ws who are not committed, not particularly remorseful, but are willing to dialog and be persuaded (as well as some bs, who want to know why do this too), and who are legitmate recipients of MB exposure and education as long as they can challenge it.<p>Perhaps it is time (due to the conflicts/complaints that arise about negativity et al) to suggest a board more oriented to those kinds of issues....perhaps that would reduce the times when a well meaning poster misreads the needs of another poster and gives them a little more honesty than they really want.... When a thread or post on one of the board exceeds the comfort level of the board, one can take it to the debate board for a thorough airing..Obviously (due to the volumne) these boards are a self-policing community, and seem to function pretty well that way...but if a post exceeds the comfort level of the board moderator, they could simply pick it up and move it to the debate board, where it can continue if desired.<p>One could argue that dilutes the effectiveness (cause who really knows what helps who) of boards like gqII, where seeing a wide variety of efforts, even ones that get a little heated, has a kind of educational affect, and helps each of us in our own personal journey, clarifying where we come down on all this stuff....but the benefit might be some seriously hurting people are nurtured a little better, and less likely to lose hope and motivation.... I dunno, there is no right answer with this many annoymous, diverse people, but it seems like a workable solution, if the goal is to reach as many people as possible, and not make MB just a special interest stop on the internet, only catering to a particular kind of individual.<p>I discussed this some with steve, (he came up with it in the course of another conversation), and I think he might like to hear from the people who populate the board, thoughts and ideas..<p>anyways, thems my 2 cents.

I understand the point(s) you are trying to get across, but IMO, you are talking about adding a LOT of new boards - and for a 'newbie', that could be so confusing.<p>I think what would make more sense, would be a page that we would get directed to as soon as we submit a post. One that claims the typical, "the opinions expressed in this post are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect all of the opinions on this board".<p>Although your suggestion makes sense, again IMO, it would be near impossible to make happen. ANYTHING in written form can be misconstrued by the reader to mean different things. I find, that it's all a matter of MY mood at the time I read something, that directs my interpretation of it.<p>Does that mean we should look into a "with meds" and "without meds" board too? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Oh just wind me up on this one. <p>Debate has NO PLACE in marriage. Debate is about who gets to be right. And I can either be right or in a relationship; most of the time, I don't get both, even if I joke with my husband that I'm always right [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Healthy relationships are not founded on debate. And sick relationships can't get healthy through debate.<p>Since this forum is to help us gain the necessary skills to behave better and make more love bank deposits in our spouse's account, it makes no sense for the Harleys to undermine the principles they teach by setting up a forum where we polish our debating skills.<p>Those focused on debating the right and wrong or philosophical POV on marriage are missing the mark. And they will not recover their marriages, no matter who is wrong, and who is right.<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</p>

you made me smile topie, factor in on meds or not...makes sense...another thing I though of is the ability to choose an icon for our names, one that indicates the level of response we seek....<p>The issue is support vs free debate.... many (including steve it seems) see value in spirited, no holds barred (although that does not mean no civility) in the pursuit of behavioural decisions.... and the argument in when a board is populated by thousands, and the board content is volatile, one has the responsibility to simply not read those posters you know trouble you.... that works pretty much, but the reality is this board is populated by people under extreme emotional duress, and they are going to read things, and may be upset, disheartened, angered, etc.... and right or wrong, that has to be considered....<p>I don't think the issue is many boards, just one where spirited debate is ok, thereby enabling the moderator to require a more support oriented discussion on the other boards..... there is a several subsets of the general population here, one of them is those who need to find their way through vigorous debate, hard hitting reality checks from peers, devils advocacy to frame parameters and issues.... I am one of those, there are others, I get email from time to time supporting my efforts, and when the debate over content flares on the boards, there is always a division of opinion on this.... I censor my delivery often, precisely to avoid traumatizing folks, but I need help too, and this how I get it, it is who I am... I think I have found a balance, but I do push the boundary, and folks regularly complain about me... with words like negative, insensitive, etc. none of it is true, it is simply how I (and those like me) need to conduct our lives.... you could say our top need is radical honest, brutal, uncensored, absolute honesty....as long as I think someone is sincere (not messing with me)...I want them to tell me exactly how they feel, and do it exactly how they want too...that way I can feel I "know" where they are coming from... I do not mind being hugged, and supported, it feels good...I also don't mind being drawn and quartered, that makes me feel safe...ya know? Like most of us I use to think anyone who did not "react" or seek knowledge the same way I do was defective, needed to be fixed.... I have come to understand people cope with life in different ways, and within reason there is a range of style that can work.... some need time and a quiet touch to work through something, when others are yelling at them "get a clue" and think they are being doormats etc... if we somehow could always know each others stle, and were willing to accomodate it, we would have no problem...but that is unrealistic so we need to have some kind of external order too.

This is about your OBBESSIVE need to debate it is not about marriage, recovering marriages, improving marriages. This forum is not here to serve you.<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</p>

kayla, hmmmm a debate about debate.... Debate is not necessarily a contest, or about winning or losing...it is how people find truth, call it argument, call it searching, call it whatever you want, you have to know where you are going, and simply saying lets restore marriage is inadequate, one has to answer first....why. That is the type of "debate" we are talking about, this is how many of us find our way, make our choices....it may not be how you do, but what about those of us who do... what do we do? There is also a need to debate the tools, the harleys are not God, they are just people with a tool, one they have experience with, and one they try to teach others to use.... that doesn't mean it always works, or that they are perfect in its application....hence a need to debate the efficacy of the tool.....why would I, why would you....anyone...just blindly do what someone else says? Trust me, just do it.... some will.... and some won't.... we need proof and debate, we have to be convinced.

kal, it was steve harleys thought, maybe you should email him and complain, is not about me (btw he values this kind of debate also).... ya know, the MB principles suggest (and harleys pretty much say so) that any two "normal" people should be able to be happily married.... assuming you are normal, (and I am)....do you think that is true...or is there a fitting factor?....btw so far no counsellor I have ever had (including the harleys) has diagnosed me as obsessive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>kayla, hmmmm a debate about debate.... Debate is not necessarily a contest, or about winning or losing...it is how people find truth, call it argument, call it searching, call it whatever you want, you have to know where you are going, and simply saying lets restore marriage is inadequate, one has to answer first....why. That is the type of "debate" we are talking about, this is how many of us find our way, make our choices....it may not be how you do, but what about those of us who do... what do we do? There is also a need to debate the tools, the harleys are not God, they are just people with a tool, one they have experience with, and one they try to teach others to use.... that doesn't mean it always works, or that they are perfect in its application....hence a need to debate the efficacy of the tool.....why would I, why would you....anyone...just blindly do what someone else says? Trust me, just do it.... some will.... and some won't.... we need proof and debate, we have to be convinced.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you've seen "A Beautiful Mind" you will understand what I mean when I describe John Nash as facing his mental illness as a mathematician, trying to find a logical, sequential, mathematical answer to heal his illness. You see "debate" as the way to find answers of the heart and spirit. And debate will get you no more answers than mathematics holds the answers to schizophrenia. It wasn't until John Nash let go of his need to be "top genius" that he was able to find a way to cope with his disease. <p>You have a brilliant mind, probably no less than John Nash. But you have an situation that is a matter of heart and spirit, not logic and debate. Until you seek from your heart instead of your mind, you will be lost.

Well snl, you may or may not have noticed, I'm hardly on the boards anymore (a bit here and there tho)... but let me tell you that you ALWAYS get my attention!<p>Did you really talk to Steve about all this? I thought you talked about marriage... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ... you mean you paid a hundred and something dollars to talk about this? Wow. You must have money to burn!!<p>That aside, these boards have the same merit they always did, it's just that the stroke me crowd can't handle the tough love crowd. I used to be in the stroke me crowd, because it's what I needed at the beginning. But let me tell ya, although I did get stroked plenty, I got blasted a fair share too! Oh, the stories I could tell you. I was in tears more than once. So my feelings got hurt -- I didn't pack up my toys and leave -- I stayed, and I stayed, and I stayed. <p>The only reason I'm backing off now is because I truly don't have much to offer anyone new anymore. I certainly don't want to hurt and hinder more than help, do I? (Rhetorical, of course).<p>So, this whole debate issue thingy. No, I don't think we need yet ANOTHER forum to wade through. I still think we shouldn't have added the divorce board. But that's just me. I'd rather we'd stuck with one general board to discuss all marriage building and left it at that. Me again. Hardly anyone agrees with me. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pretty soon though, we're gonna have the "Be nice" board, the "Be mean" board, the "Be in between" board" the "Affairs with men over 40" board, the "Affairs with plant life and hairless mammals" board... I mean, WHERE DOES IT STOP?<p>I personally think this board has kind of overtaken it's original purpose and no longer is the Harley's idea of Marriage BUILDING. Where are the NSR's explaining the PRINCIPLES around here. Yeah, there's a few... but I'll tell ya, the last time I did it, someone told me to shut up and quit regurgitating Harleyites crap.<p>Go figure. It's only the HARLEY'S site, for crying out loud.

sheryl, the issue just came up at the end of a session, we talk about our marriage and what to do about stuff, no I am not that rich, nor do I think steve would accept a session just to bulls***, he is a dedicated guy, and really wants to help, I am just a tough case.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>I am just a tough case.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Really? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

I agree to add a new forum to this board will probably send the new comers away. There is so much to view now, and so much negativism here, why would one want to be here to help their marriage? Also, if the Harleys allow this to happen, do you know how much will get done here at home with SNL, '0'. As it is, he spends so much time on the boards, and doesn't get things done, big complaint today talking with Steve. Look at emotional needs, counseled with Steve, told him today, the things that are not getting done, because SNL sits here and types, types, debates, debates. <p>I thought this board was to help repair marriages, if it becomes a debate, does the WS win, or does the BS win? Doesn't seem like this is a good plan, seems like it is competition of who is better at debating, what do you think? In our life, SNL wins by a landslide, so I wouldn't even bother coming on the boards, whats the use, I have nothing to offer to SNL that he is interested in. I think this board is going to lose its value, and I think it will be a big mistake. <p>Anyways, just my opinion, hope SNL accomplished soemthing tomorrow, besides sitting at his computer.

somewhere kayla I acknowledged that concern, I know there is no definitive answer, and I do take action, and I do consider my emotions, if I didn't I would not have been unfaithful, or questioning my marriage...the intellectual case for remaining married, and fixing the one you are in is almost irrefutable, my recalitrance is not intellectual, it is emotional. Thank you for the "favorable" (?) comparison to John Nash, and yes I did see the movie, thought it was pretty good.... I am no genius, but I am a good troubleshooter (it is what I have done all my adult life for money)... a troubleshooter is very good at identifying problems, defining parameters (even not so obvious ones) and solving system problems with solutions that work, I will (and am) solving this one....is the solution the right one? Only time will tell....if it is not, I can only ajust and go forward, that is the way it works sometimes.

Hiya SNL and thinker,<p>Debate or debabble? Hm...... Well I for one have benefitted and been frustrated by both. Over all it is good to see discussion. What we all need to realize is that we are here to share ideas. Hopefully with the intent to take what is good and discard the bad. Not all info here is good for each of us. Our situations while very similar (I mean there are only soo many ways to be unfaithful EA or PA or both), they do have some individualistic twists (due to our personalities and those involved). <p>To separate this on separate boards could deny this valuable interchange to the many that lurk, newbies and oldies alike. The point is that it is our individual choice to read and post. If we don't like it and want to tell a specific poster not to post to them anymore, that is our choice and should be respected. On the other hand that poster wants to share their topic further, they have the choice to continue that discussion on a separate thread. <p>See, all have choices. Yet isn't that what got some of us in trouble in the first place? Choices? Hm.....yes and no. Life is full of choices - some good and some bad. Can that be debated? Of course. But not here, create a separate thread for that. Why? Out of respect for the orginator of this thread. <p>Hm...........I think this is more about respecting each other. Does that mean we can't vent? Nope, just remember how one disagrees is just as important as the point being disagreed. <p>You know SNL, I love a good debate. But I also respect you and your family time. So I would gladly reduce my debate time with you so you can spend quality time with your family. The decision to do so is yours and how you are viewed is ours. Same goes for the rest of us. eh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>JMHO,
L.

Reasons I don’t think that another forum or two here will help… <p>This board is for marriage building. We do a fair amount of debate on issues as it is. These are usually helpful. But a forum specifically to debate would change the focus of the boards, perhaps even scare some people away. SNL, you love to debate. I do too, but only to the point that the same debate is not had over and over ad nausium. I have found that most people actually do not enjoy debating.<p>There are already quite a few forums on MB but only a few of them are really used. Some get almost no traffic at all. Most of the forums are not even used for the topics they are supposed to be dedicated to. “Just Found Out” is usually mostly new comers. But many of the new comers go to Emotional Need, GQII and Recovery. The Plan A/Plan B forum is almost not used. Most people who are doing plan A/B hang out in GQII or Recovery. Shoot most of the people in the Recovery forum are not in recovery in their marriage. One more forum would just mean one more place that does not get used as intended.<p>The way these forums are set up, a new person should start in ‘Just Found Out’, progress to ‘Plan A/Plan B’ then to either ‘Divorce/Divorcing’ or ‘Recovery’. ‘General Questions’ is for, well general questions. <p>SNL, if you want to debate, maybe you can start threads and mark them as such. Then even a new comer will know what it’s about. [e.g., “Debate, SNL’s theory on emotional fit.”].

I don't think we need a debate board. Wouldn't it be much simpler to take any debates to private email. I mean if two people want to go on and on about a particulr subject, why not email? <p> Barring private email, I like zorwebs suggestion. State right at the beginning that this thread is intended strictly for debate. This will lure only those whishing to participate in such things.<p> I personally see no use for debating. I know you, SNL, say that is how you learn. But quite frankly, and no disrespect intended, I have yet to see your way of thinking changed by any debate you have been a part of. <p> I don't think a debate board is warranted for this site. JMVHO.<p> jd

I pretty much agree with you z regard the practicalities, funny how people just won't go where they are suppose to isn't it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ..... the issue is only an issue cause some people are upset with debate type threads, and the less sensitive nature of such threads in terms of being supportive...they (or advocates for them) become distressed and complain to management...<p>of course managing a board dealing with volatile issues gaurantees you will recieve these kinds of complaints, that is another reality of people....if it was anything other than marital stuff I don't think this would be a problem...similar complaints come up regular as clockwork on religion boards, parenting boards, issues boards (abortion, homosexuality, welfare, feminism..etc.) and people really get hurt, lots of these things are deeply felt...they cry, and chastise those who don't shy away from the tough stuff...people join sides...the sensitive side vs the lets hash this all out side...but the difference is (I guess) they are not meant to be support boards (and support boards do exist, and one does not let discussion get intense there)...so folks are gently reminded not to read or participate in posts that they find upsetting...but as long as normal rules of civility are followed, and the stuff is not personal animus (flaming), there is no censorship/banning.<p>But because people are hurting so bad, and the repercussions of this hurt, anger, depression is very real re marital issues it makes sense that a board about marital restoration is in some sense a de facto support board as well...so where to draw the line...each poster is left to themself to decide, and there is a sort of community presence as well....the point of a board about "debate" (or more accurately said, "intense discussion") is that it provides a boundary, a clear seperation between those who need and value this input, and those who are adversely affected by that sort of input....<p>Ideally newly wounded would be restricted to the just found out board for a little while until they have gotten their balance, realized they are not alone, and learned the basics..... the other boards being utilized for the specific things they were designated for, and the GQII board being the open forum where debate can coexist, and not be viewed as a support board, the other boards having more of a support function....there is really no need to come to the GQ board at all strickly for support and such, the other boards are available for that depending on what stage one is in... and one could argue it is reasonable to expect a more um...cosmopolitan atmosphere there, and wear an extra layer of skin there.....also most people are pretty good about honoring requests not to post to them if they have issues with your viewpoints, or style, etc.... it seems different styles could coexist, but that is the harleys call, it is their board, and if they want the rhetoric toned down they just need to post the guidelines and it is done...but I think they see value in "debate" and a the need of those who do it, and do not want them turned away for just being who they are....marital issues affect all peoples and temperaments, and they do not want to be elitist in who can post and who can not... sort of a politicizing of the process, or a PC'ing it (politically correct).<p>If they do do something like this, would be interesting to see how the MB "public" reacts, I don't think the board would be used alot, the vast majority of posts on MB (even mine) really are not all that controversial, and can accomodate most anyone.... I suspect a debate board would be used pretty much just for the occasional hashing out of religious issues (vows etc.) psychological issues re the whys of marriage, and what is love vs dependentcy, possesion etc...possibly abuse type issues, and a general place for someone who wishes all responses, and tough love type of honesty to post a thread requesting a full range of input...one could even post an answer there to a thread on another board, and simply note they did so (sort of self-censoring if one feels they are pushing the line) and link or reference it... the main thing it does is diffuse the chronic complaint between the support oriented folks and the tough love, calls it as they sees it, questions everything folks...the moderator then has a tool to deal with such complaints by clarifying what should go there, and what can be posted generally.... anyways, just some more thoughts.

Newbie speaking up here..........<p>The board we (Redbook Riff Raff and me) just came from was split because some folks didn't want "tough love". Okay, I respect that. I also respect that if I post something that is considered "harsh" I know that I posted with the utmost concern for that person. That person may not see that....so....that person is entitled to take it or leave it. That is their choice and I respect that.<p>The split of the board completely destroyed the overall atmosphere and the sense of community that we had spent many cumulative years investing our time, energy, laughs, and tears. Us Riff Raff had all formed a bond over there. It obviously is strong enough for us to stick together regardless of the board split. We no longer are regular members of that board specifically because the board was split. We felt our support system had been trampled on and we ALL felt betrayed. <p>There is a time for "hugs" support and there is a time for "tough" support. They both have their effectiveness. Some need the hugs and some need a tougher approach. Isn't that up to the recipient to decide? <p>Isn't the idea here to share support, offer ideas and thoughts? I personally do better when I have several different viewpoint to consider.<p>Debate? Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the thread on love. It was pretty much a debate thread. I loved it. I saw both sides and I was able to discern for myself which I benefitted from the most.<p>Anyway, the board split is still so fresh to alot of us newbies so I guess it's giving me "flashbacks". We (the RRR) looked at several different sites and even created our own.....but....we didn't find one where we felt we could LEARN and we were also concerned about getting new people on the site with fresh ideas. THIS BOARD was a really good decision for me and it looks as if my comrades agree....we've stuck around for a few days!<p>Some days we all need hugs and empathy, and some days we all need an eye-opener. Just MHO.<p>selket

jd, this place, and the many questions, observations, stories, and yes discussions too, have helped me tremendously.... I knew nothing about marriage before coming here, just having the same old indoctrination many of us have re what love, marriage, bonding, is and the psychology thereof. I knew almost nothing about abusive behaviour, and the many forms it can take other than just beating someone up....I also needed a mirror to see myself in (how others view my thoughts), a reality check in other words...I have also benefited by observing how others live their lives, and assessing whether it is healthy or not, and why it works or not, and how that applies to me.... what people call love and when it is not so...when it is something else....there are very clear patterns in the stories here about how people conduct their lives, I didn't know about these things, also the many debates over what infidelity is, what it means, and how it should be dealt with was very helpful.... probably the single most illuminating thing re relationships, I learned here was the absolute need for radical honesty (I never would have told otherwise), in all respects, especially about emtional honesty....it truly sets you (and your partner)free from the games people play. My time here has educated me to the point I feel comfortable in my decision making re my own life, and I did not have that in the beginning, I thought I had no choices, was just doomed (or trapped) by my life, I didn't realize I really had choices, a whole range of choices, and it was ok to do what I needed to for me....something I never have done before.<p>I am not sure what you meant by not changing much, I came here pretty much a blank slate, I didn't know what I believed, all I had was my instincts, and my rationalist predilection that stuff has to work, and make sense....not just be rote or dogma.... now I have a whole bunch of beliefs re all this stuff, and the basis of it is the emotional/psychological well-being of individuals is far more important than preserving a legal contract just for the sake of preserving it..... and the collorary arising from my need to understand the Christian doctrine is that that applies there too, that marriage is not an absolute, was never meant to be practiced legalistically, dutifully, but is a living breathing process and is about God's will, not mans will, and man saying God categorically requires we do not question the marriage we are in is flat out wrong He says nothing of the kind..... anyways JD, the point is this had been a very helpful experience, including learning about the harley principles re lb'ing, poja, and protection....I don't happen to agree with them that one can be pretty much married to anyone, I think psychological fit is a lot more important than they will deal with, and I find their insistence they can fix any marriage (by altering the people in it) starts to resemble a little too much like brainwashing..... bottom line is we all know deep down if we want to be married to someone or not, and if after reasonable effort you don't feel right about it, I think it is very unfair to pressure someone with observations they just are not trying hard enough, or don't care about how others are affected ...that is circular logic, and coercive.... I just fundamentally disagree with the concept that a decision made in the ignorance of youth (and in a society that makes it so easy to get married no matter how ill-advised), is one you must live with for your entire life.... the fundamental characteristic about being human is the ability to grow, and correct mistakes, be it career, employment, religion, emmigration, politics...you name it, we are encouraged to grow and completely change out lives if need be...but somehow this doesn't apply to something as important to our mental health as who we attempt to have an intimate relationship with. That makes no sense at all, and reduces us all to property, something to be owned, and "fixed" if need be....There is nothing particularly terrible about divorce, people can still care about each other, share history and kids and so forth, be nurturing/helpful friends to each other...it is only terrible cause we make it terrible, we try to own someone, and we get angry if they do not want to continue the intimacy, and refuse to be friends with them...why?...why do we get angry, life goes on, and is fine, if people treat each other with caring...if love is just about applying MB, then one can find it with another if they so desire, so why the anger? Why do people try to possess each other, and what does that have to do with love? nothing methinks....

This is exactly what the debate issue will do to SNL. It is 5:00 am our time, and he still isn't in bed. Today is going to be I'm too tired, I have to take a nap, if a service call comes in he will swear and be grouchy. Is this good for the family? NO!!!! This is showing the grown children that we have you can stay up and do whatever you want, don't take responsibility for the next day, don't worry about being crabby and swearing when you have work to do, forget about the bills, forget about responsibilities. I will tell you, when the day starts today, it is going to be another pure day of not getting things done.<p>SNL and I played scrabble last night. I enjoy the game, and I almost won. Was fun, I lost only by a few points, was a good time, SNL initiated it. But why can't he be a good example and go to bed at a reasonable time.<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>