MM,
What you want from us is a "Go for it" and I don't think you are going to get it. <p>I am going to be very direct with you. You are giving excuse after excuse in an attempt to start an affair. Label it any way you want but a duck is a duck, an affair is an affair. Period.<p>What you are saying now is NOT what you said a few days ago. <p>Quit making excuses before you screw up your entire future. You are going to do what you want to do so I really don't know why you are here. You don't want to "Marriage Build". You want to "Marriage Bust".<p>Again, what SHE and HER HUSBAND do are NOT your business, they do NOT live with you, they are not in your marriage so why does it matter "what they know".<p>You have a commitment to your wife. Your excuses are baloney! I tell you these things in this way with the hopes of talking some sense into you.<p>What do you want from this board? I've asked you this but you haven't answered. Why would you come to Marriage Builders if you really want an affair? You are in for big trouble and I mean BIG.<p>No one wins in an affair. And everyone gets hurt sooner or later. <p>You are going to end up alone if you aren't careful. If you want this friendship with her, why aren't you discussing this with your wife? You won't listen to us anyway, so why not start with some honesty at home?

I am not looking for an affair. I came to this board because as I pulled away from this woman I felt my heart aching and wondered how people got over it.<p>I am at the point now where I dont feel that ache. I wonder if I maintain things as they are -- a frienship as it stands -- if that will work.<p>I know my wife has male friends in different parts of her world. I am not sure what they talk about.<p>At this point I am deceiving my wife, yes, by not fulling telling her what I tell this woman. But I do that with male friends too, talk with them about things I dont share with wife.<p>My point in these recent posts was to ask the question: If I was the one always telling this woman I loved her, and if I now back off from that, it seems we can maintain a friendship. That is because it was ME who led with the heart. If I back off, there is no emotional affair. That is how I see it.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FOG!!!!! YOU ARE SO IN IT!!

URGH!!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You debate and justify. It just doesn't work that way, and you are fooling yourself to think it can just be platonic and that you may and will never feel these feelings for her again. So, I state again, if you care for, love and protect your wife you would not for one milisecond take any sort of minute chance of subjecting her to the sort of pains you see expressed here! <p>So, do as you like, and I wish you well, but personally I feel if you continue on the road you are on you are going to crash, and crash hard. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

So far no one has answered my one question: If it was me who led with the heart and I now back off, why can't this remain a friendship?<p>If I led with my heart, and she led with her heart, then I could see the problem.<p>But this woman guarded her heart.<p>So .... if I back off and be friends, that is how it will be.<p>I would like to hear from a woman who guarded her heart and then finally gave in. To me it seems clear that this woman is not emotionally involved with me.<p>Or am I totally wrong? Women might be better at reading her actions than I am. I am better at being direct, hearing what is in someone's heart. At this point she has told me only a few things

Do you hold your male friends hand and kiss them and stroke their hair and touch their cheek?<p>You better think long and hard about the consequences to your actions. Many things come out of these situations: do you have kids? it will shatter their image of you. do you have people who respect you? you will lose your credibility, if your wife can't trust you why should your friends, your friends won't trust you with their wives. I don't know what kind of business you are in but when this gets out (and it always does) your business associates won't trust you. And if you want your marriage you will probably have to leave your job and a lot of times leave your city to save your marriage. Uproot your kids from school. Not to mention your wife's sanity, the other woman's sanity... ok since you are so selfish how about your very own sanity does that bother you? You posting here is just the tip of the iceberg. There is something in you questioning is it wrong. As time goes on there will be an inner struggle within you with so much confusion and questions and being torn between the 2 women you love. You are toying with peoples emotions, your own, your wife, your friend, my God, I hope you don't have kids because your toying with theirs too. Anyone can snap, there is a whole strew of temporary insanity cases for murder.<p>Boy, I hope it is worth it to you. count the cost.<p>My best advice to you would be tell your wife. She will be hurt yes but she will have more respect for your honesty than the coward you are now when she finds out.<p>And if I were you, I would start asking my wife about her male friends. Since you are tempted to dabble in this your marriage is not fulfilling to her and she too is dabbling in this.

How did you feel about President Clinton? He did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky either. So would you call that an affair?<p>Look at what a jack___ he looked like in front of our nation. Does ANYONE respect him? Have you seen how it aged him?

...If it was me who led with the heart and I now back off, why can't this remain a friendship?
Sure you can, as long as you tell your wife everything and she says its ok.<p>The fact that she allows you to kiss her, touch her hair, hold her hand is signs that he emotions are involved. The only way for someone to be totally in control of not being emotionally intimate with someone else is if they are not interested in that person at all. <p>What you want is to keep asking and wait for someone to tell you it is ok. Your looking for permission to continue in your emotional affair with this other woman and not tell your wife about it...It won't happen on this "marriagebuilders" board. The fact alone that you would ask that question on a "marriagebuilders" site kind of says something about where your head is. Please read everything you can on this board. <p>Its really hard when I have been on this site since about June to give constructive advise. I just get so numb to it all. I just want to stamp you with a big fat "A" on your clothes then a big fat "L" on your forhead. and say NEXT?! I am sorry, it just your story is here over and over and over and over again. Yet then a new person comes a long and says "no this is different, its not the same"

mm....,
Two years ago, while on phone with him, my wife got mad at the husband of a couple we used to live next door to. She hung up on him. He got emotional and drove out here to talk to her, stood out on our porch and told her he loves her and has for years. Said he never thought he would tell her to her face. He planted the seed of discord. Until then the problems we had as a couple didn't include him, or his wife and daughter. I wish you could know the pain all around from him being her FRIEND. He told his wife he loved my W. She left him, My wife drove to console him when he called to say he felt like killing himself. She came back saying she had feelings for him and needed to leave me. OM W moved out, mine moved in. Jump forward he moved twice, she moved back home, she still wanting him. He's living with a different Woman he was getting calls from while living with my wife. I can see how much he loved my W. The pity is if he had stepped back and worked on his marriage and fixed it I feel I would have had a better chance to work on mine. At least My wife wouldn't be going through what she is.
You think you LOVE her. You vowed to love your wife. The closeness she feels for you is pulling her further and further from her marriage. I am willing to bet everything her H does bothers her,(now with you in the wings) he can't win, no matter what he does..Marriages are not made for 3 people. She can grow tired of you in time too. Maybe with one of those "admired" by alls at work.
I am living the results of this kind of friendship. So will our kids, 3.5 days here, and 3.5 days there. Ask them how they like this.
I will take all I need to in order for them to not have to.
Sorry I get wordy. D.

It seems like you are looking for anything to continue this relationship. <p>Maybe I should tell you what we lost because of my husband's "friendship." First of all, he lost his good reputation and friends who had known him for years as a Godly man lost their respect for him. He had to change jobs as a result of this and he is now starting over in a job with no retirement. He hates this job, but can't go back. He could have retired in seven years with the other company. Now he'll be lucky to retire at 70. We also lost the community we had grown up in because we had to move over 2,000 miles away. He lost my trust and it will take years to rebuild. Probably the hardest thing for me is that we lost something very special in our lovemaking. As he makes love to me, I wonder so many times if he did that to her or if she did something better than I do. He is probably struggling with memories, too. His "friendship" tarnished something that was so special. What are you willing to give up or lose . . . maybe the respect of your children?<p>Are others noticing the relationship between you and this other woman?<p>Although you insist that you are not hurting your wife in any way, are you sharing more of your emotions and inner thoughts with this other woman?<p>Even the fact that you can not give up this friendship shows that you are not being faithful to your wife. You are playing with fire. Maybe you should give your wife this website. She will need it if continue this relationship.

I see what you are saying, and I am not trying to make out like my friendship is perfect, but I still don't see how it can be construed as an affair.<p>I talk with the woman on the phone. I meet her, for business, maybe once every couple weeks.<p>It is not like we see each other every day. And doesn't it take two people, both leading with their heart, to make it a love affair?<p>I could see I was playing with fire if we were sneaking away each day for three hour lunches and having drinks.

the bottom line is if you feel the need to hide any of it from your wife - it is inappropriate. If you are doing "nothing" wrong then why can't you tell your wife. <p>The fact that she allows you to kiss her, touch her hair, hold her hand is signs that her emotions are involved. <p>I do see some progress in your thinking in that you are no longer thinking sex = affair. You called it a "love affair" do you see how this fact means you are both involved: The fact that she allows you to kiss her, touch her hair, hold her hand is signs that her emotions are involved. <p>I would NOT allow this to happen with anyone if my emotions were not involved.

OK, I will call it a love affair. But I don't see her emotions involved. She never, or rather, rarely tells me what she is thinking about all this. She is quite even-keeled about it all. I am the one leading with me heart, and she is not. Much more in control

The fact that she allows you to kiss her, touch her hair, hold her hand is signs that her emotions are involved. I would NOT allow this to happen with anyone if my emotions were not involved.<p>Actions speak louder than words. Its like your words also say you love and protect your wife but your actions say otherwise.

... and just what do you think you would do if she 'lost' control? let her guard down? told you she loved you and wanted you to be more than a friend...<p>... does this strike fear in your heart? 'cause it sounds as if that is all that is separating you from declaring YOUR feelings to her...<p>then what? you will have crossed a line from where you can never return...<p>then what?<p>Cali

Cali, I can guarantee that this woman will never let her guard down in that way. Ever. She is kind, nice, compassionate and all those things. But she guards her heart so closely. She will never loose control. It is just not in her nature. I'd bet $1,000 on this. <p>I have kissed her. But she has never leaned over to kiss me. I have stroked her hair. But she has never leaned over and stroked mine. I have held her in my arms, had her lean hear face back on my shoulders, her face next to mine. She has never called me over and put her arms around my neck.<p>
See what I mean?<p>So if I dont do that, then it won't happen. Therefore, we can be friends and only friends

Last year... this time... I would have GUARANTEED YOU... bet $1,000,000.00 that my H WOULD NEVER, EVER HAVE AN AFFAIR.<p>He had told me so. He would have told you so. On my birthday 2000, he told me that he was 'trying to love me like no other.' by my birthday 2001, he was telling me he was moving out. Christmas of 2000, he told my sister that you work a marriage and work until it works out... by March he was sleeping w/ OW and in the heat of an affair... He had 'advised' other men on the subject. He booed other men at the movies who did it. He told me that "Why would he go out for hamburger when he had steak at home."<p>I would have staked my LIFE and the LIVES of my children that he would not let his guard down or lose control.<p>I would have lost the bet... <p>...sorry... I can't take your bet... because, in life, there are no guarantees and no sure bets...<p>Cali

MM,<p>You are asking why this friendship cannot be continued. I ask you, have you read ANY of Dr. Harley's material on the main MB site? The fact that you continue posting what you do practically shouts that you have not studied the Marriage Builders philosophy at all. We regulars here have studied this information and believe that applying these concepts can build stronger marriages.<p>Who can explain better than Dr. Harley already has why you cannot remain friends. Please go read his recommendations again. He clearly says that you cannot have a healthy marriage with any contact whatsoever with an OP. You seem much more concerned with keeping this woman in your life than safeguarding your relationship with your wife. You are being disgracefully disrespectful of her.<p>You say:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am not looking for an affair. I came to this board because as I pulled away from this woman I felt my heart aching and wondered how people got over it. <hr></blockquote><p>Dear MM, you don't need to look for an affair because you are ALREADY deeply in one!! Have you read Harley's material on emotional affairs? I suspect you have not. If you have read Harley's material and still must ask why what you want to do is wrong, you are truly fog-bound. As to how you get over it, have you read my response on your earlier thread? You go no contact cold turkey and tough out the withdrawal. There is no way to avoid the pain your choices have set you up for you. You grit your teeth, do what is right, and tough it out.<p>One more comment. You say OW guards her heart. You say she is smart. I think that she knows EXACTLY what she is doing. She is getting a kick out of having you fawn around after her like a love-sick teenager. She is toying with you. She knows you really like her. She knows you are a married man, yet she allows you to kiss her, hold her, and stroke her hair. She is leading you on and letting you continue to do this because she likes the feeling of being adored by you. You are fantasizing that she is fighting to keep from giving in to her feelings for you when in fact she doesn't have any except for the enjoyment she gets from having you adore her. <p>I'm sorry if this sounds unfeeling towards you. It is not meant to be hurtful. Your behavior is inexcusable. A responsible man does not carry on this way about a woman who is not his wife. Keep this up, and your wife will figure things out. Then you will find out what real pain is like as you lose your family - all for the woman with a guarded heart.<p>Best wishes,
Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>I told her how I felt about her, she guarded her heart, eventually told me that she likes me, too. Never any sexual touching at all. I have held her hand, kissed her twice, stroked her hair, touched her cheek. I wear my heart on my sleeve -- more of an artist.So is it wrong to just keep things where they are?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Cool. If it's so innocent, show the above paragraph to your W and her H and ask them if it's ok. If it's not "wrong" then it can't be wrong to be honest with your W and her H about your feelings and about what has transpired.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>Excellent posts to my question, and they do make me think. I will try and answer a couple of the questions asked.<p>During the time I have known this woman, she has not embraced my advances, if that's what you want to call them, but she has never told me to stop. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Are you seriously so deluded that you think it is OK for a married man to pursue another MARRIED woman on the grounds that she has "not embraced my advances?" Surely you jest. It is NOT OK for a married to pursue any woman other than his wife. I find it horrifying that I have to even say that to a married man!<p>Quit with the justification games and stop trying to justify the unjustifiable. Good grief...