things a little better now. Saw lawyer yesterday and have legal details of what would need to happen, what would happen, what could happen, more straight in my mind should we get to that point. Yesterday afternoon tried to talk to H, making sure I made ground rules first - no getting angry - if we get angry, we stop. He got angry and started shouting, wouldn't stop, even though my 6 yr old son sitting in my lap crying. Lots of WS babble - He needs to keep secrets because I'm the kind of person I am (my favourite), when he gets angry, its because he's only human and my behaviour would make any man angry, his anger is justified because of all the things I am 'imagining' about him, the fact that our child is crying is my fault, because I tried to talk to him when our child was there. And so on. He left and I spent a lot of time talking to our son, who blames himself, because of something that happened a few weeks ago, when he told me he saw Daddy kissing her in the kitchen and my H and I had a row after that - on that occasion, my H brought my son back into the room and questioned him about what he saw until he backed down - for me this is HORRENDOUS. My parents D when I was 12 over OW and never put me through that kind of hell. My H is out of control and not thinking about what his behaviour is doing to the children anymore - he's only thinking about proving himself right (because the A isn't a PA). So my son has already been damaged by this, which breaks my heart. But I had a long talk with him, and reassured him of how much Daddy and I love him - I can't write a lot now b/c I'm at work - will try to say as much as I can - my S says he is afraid of Daddy and wants his old Daddy back - doesn't understand why Daddy has changed and why he doesn't love me anymore - well, long talk, I think he is reassured, but inside, v insecure.
H came home - more conciliatory - I think his angry outbursts are showing him that HE has a real problem with anger. Finally we were able to talk more rationally later on - I said he needed to know how much he frightened us when he was angry - I said I wanted him to know that it wasn't his OW which had brought us to this point -it was the problems in our marriage that go back to the beginning - his bullying - I listed some of the incidents going WAY back - he retaliated that I was keeping a list of grievances - that He was the bully and the male, and that I was the victim and the female and there was nothing he could do about it - I said no, HE was the victim - HE was the bully, but the bully is always a victim, because a person becomes a bully by being bullied - he has been bullied VERY badly all his life by his parents - I told him I loved him and it hurt be beyond measure to see this happening to him, but I would not accept being bullied myself and it was damaging the children and he had to have the courage to stand and face the pain of his past - i was willing to work through things with him together, but I would not accept living being bullied anymore and I would rather separate if things did not change. My lawyer gave me the name of a good clinic - he is interested - I didn't say who gave me the info.
He seems to have been relieved of a great deal of tension - I saw an AHA! in his head yesterday and this AM he even seems happy and hugged me, saying he never meant to frighten me and that I should know it wasn't directed at me and that he would never hurt me. I said I thought we could work things out and we hugged alot.
Any comments?
Hanging in there.
Odile

[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Wish yesterday I hadn't sat there with my son on my lap - wish I had just taken him upstairs and out of it - why can't I think straight when these things happen?

^^BUMP^^

Dear odile:<p>I've been lurking on your thread, lured by the "Friendship or Affair" lead. Haven't chimed in because I saw plenty of support and wisdom from Orchid, Estes49, formerly hopeless, and probably others.<p>I'm hurting for your 6 year old. It's not your fault that he was sitting on your lap when your H lost control and acted like a bully and an idiot and emotionally brutalized the little guy. Hubby is a creep. Of course your 6 year old retracted his story. He was terrified. But you know he told the truth about seeing his father kissing "her" in the kitchen. (I'm confused about who "her" is. The same woman he e-mails?)<p>If you're lucky, your S will someday forget this. Does he know that you believe him? Did you tell him that in the presence of your H after the "adult" worked him over mentally?<p>I learned somewhere about the cycle of abuse. It goes something like this: Tension builds up inside the abuser. Abuser is triggered by some incident or comment, and releases the built up tension with violence, either verbal or physical. This can include punching inanimate object or throwing them. Abuser blames victim ("any man would react the way I am reacting - it's your fault") After a while, Abuser makes conciliatory gesture toward victim. Apologizes. Honeymoon phase ensues. Peace for awhile. Tension builds up again. Finally, triggers happen again, Abuser builds up to another episode. Cycle complete. Ad infinitum.<p>This can't be allowed to become normal in your home. You see the effect on your 6 year old. Think of your child as the canary in the coal mine.<p>What's your plan to protect yourself and your kids? Do you have Restraining Orders in the UK? <p> Of course you're afraid. That your H slams inanimate objects is a threat. It says "This is what I'm capable of. Remember, it could be your body that gets hit next time. Or it could be one of the kids. And it will be your fault. Sit down, shut up, and don't provoke me."<p>It's horrible to be watching your H eat his heart out, and spend all his time pursuing an EA. That's been my life since before D-day, almost 4 years ago (July 3) That's what drew me to your post. My H has only inflicted emotional violence on me, not threatened physical violence.<p>"Only." <p>Abused women always think they can handle the abuser. That he won't go that next step. If it's to the point that your neighbors can hear him going crazy, and if he is a bully (which sounds like the case) the only thing he will respect is a higher authority (police or the law.) <p>Keep posting here for the comfort, but remember our sympathy won't protect you or the kids, and it won't keep your H from behaving like a thug.<p>(((((((((((((((((odile)))))))))))))))))))

odile,<p>I just got home from an out-of-town trip. I had a message stating that the email I sent you on Monday did not have a valid address. Did you get that email I sent you on Monday? I sent it as a reply to your message. <p>I have to unpack but will be back to the forum later this evening.<p>If you need my email address again, let me know. I want to write you. <p>I'm so sorry about the incident with your little boy.<p>Estes

Odile,<p>I'm so sorry for what you are going through. Yes, this is the roller-coaster. It's good that you are continuing to do things that make you feel good. It's also good that you are defining your boundaries -- what you will tolerate in your M and what you will not. Your H needs to understand that violence is not an option. <p>I'm glad you consulted an attorney. That is something I did also. You need to make sure you have plans so you can feel somewhat secure and in control of your destiny. Not that you will necessarily put those plans in place -- you want to work on you M and make it better.<p>You are strong to be persevering. It is not easy to try to meet someone's ENs when they are not meeting yours. But it is worth making the effort to save your M. At least if things do not work, you will be able to look yourself in the eye and say you did everything possible. <p>I don't have any startling words of wisdom. My H and I are working on things -- he had an EA. I don't know what finally got through to him, I'll ask him tonight to see if that will give you any insight. But finally, after all the deception and denial and the "I don't love you anymore"s, he emerged from the fog. <p>Anyway, just hang in there. Come in here and read and vent. It helps. Some of the posts that helped me during this time were by Seahorse and Forgiver -- they are on the JFO board. Forgiver is truly inspirational -- she really knows how to Plan A.<p>Remember, you are not alone. People here care.<p>FHO

Dear Belle, FHO and Estes-have a few minutes - H out of house - I'm LISTENING to everything you're saying - yes, I think my H has been abusive since day 1 (psychologically) - OW is just symptomatic - am now trying to get us some serious, skilled help at top London clinic which my lawyer recommended - H is interested - am in 'honeymoon' window - H very affectionate - went out last night - science experiment on EN's (this time Admiration and RC) v successful - H wants to go out again, this time to a film I expressed an interest in - yes, we do have restraining orders in UK - am prepared to call police - neighbor ready to call police - lawyer says this may be the shock he needs to realize his behaviour is out of line. Hope it doesn't happen again. Hoping for an even keel the next few days - have let up on OW problem for time being - will have to handle his need for that in therapy. Hug myself. (((me))). Cry sometimes for my little boy. Cry sometimes cause I need safe loving arms which love me and don't want to hurt me.
I'm a strong person. Been through a lot of s*** in my life already - sometimes I say to myself - you're steel tempered in the flames girl, you're OK. Not going to roll over and give up.
Thanks to all of you - I think about you, too and pray for you all.
Odile

(((((((((((((((odile))))))))))))))))))))))))<p>What can I say? Just keep your safety nets in place, check the guy lines, and pray. Does your 6 year old know that if things get scarey, he can run next door to the neighbors? <p>Love,

Dear Belle,
Good point - also, friend told me to make sure I tell him that I will let him know what is happening - let him know that I will tell him if I need to make decisions - make sure he knows I will let him know of any important decisions - my friend says kids worry about stuff they don't know about, that stuff is going to happen behind their backs - hadn't thought of that. things right now seem good - my H's brother rang me tonight and sounds very 'together' - very supportive, will be supportive about encouraging my H into counselling - my H's brother has had counselling himself - and so has his son, our nephew. I didn't tell him about OW problem - just told him the problem was bullying. So I have hope. But aware that I have to be alert, too, and not lulled into false sense of security. Thank you so much for the hugs.
Odile

Dear FHO - So glad that you said your H had emerged from the fog - so it is possible. I hope things are going well for you - does he know you post on MB? How do WS react when/if they find out the BS posts here? I have said things here I haven't told my H - like seeing a lawyer and getting print-outs of his e-mails. I would deal with that when/if I had to - not afraid to stand up to what I have to. Just wondering about others' experience once they get into recovery and things become more honest and open between them.
God bless,
Odile

H seems a lot happier lately - since our discussion on Wed (about bullying) - I checked his e-mail a/c yesterday and no new e-mails from OW since Wed - maybe she's backed off after last wk when it seems he got a little too heavy w/ her - don't think she wants a PA, she just happy to indulge in EA w/ someone else's husband. Well - H seems to have drawn back a lot closer to me, emotionally and physically. Is this the window of opportunity to get us into counselling? I have a place in mind and with my BIL's help, am hoping we can get in for an appt in the near future - trouble w/ UK is this kind of thing doesn't happen WHEN you need it - there are always waiting lists for any treatment, even if you pay for it privately.
Is this renewed affection part of her backing off? Proof I need that these EA's have damaging effect on us - when his attention goes to OW, it fades from his M - when OW is out of picture, he comes back to M.
Since this has happened twice, I don't want to sit around waiting for the next time - need to get into a place where I can tell him I can't live with that yo-yo behaviour anymore.
For now, just trying to keep family on an even keel. ^^BUMP^^
Odile

Odile,<p>Glad to see things are going a little better for you. It takes a while for them to emerge from the fog and sometimes they slide backwards. <p>My H does not know I post here. He has been to this site and read the principles here, but does not know I post. I view this as my private area to vent. In your situation, I don't know if I would let me H know about the posting -- since there are things that you do not want him to know about yet.<p>The good news for you is that you are still meeting some of his ENs. The EA is a fantasy world into which he can escape. <p>It is great that you are establishing some boundaries. Have your plans in place and work on things that make you a better person. You are strong and will get through this. Keep in mind that the fog doesn't clear instantly -- like any fog it takes a while and sometimes it seems to creep back in.<p>Hang in there!<p>FHO

Dear FHO,
Thanks for the words of encouragement - although I would like my H to get into the info on this site, I don't think if I told him about it, he would read it anyway, and yes, I am afraid of him finding out some of the stuff I have posted here - its not that I want to keep secrets from him, but I've been trying to get a grip on what's happening to me and trying to sort out whether or not I'm doing the right thing.<p>I've found MB very helpful - I knew some of the things I was doing in my M weren't constructive, but I felt trapped into behaviour patterns that I didn't know how to change - Harley's clearly stated principles have helped me change certain ways I approach my H and also to cease the LBing angry outbursts that used to happen out of sheer frustration.<p>Today, I found some stuff on the computer - he's been looking at stuff on passive/aggressive traits - I know he thinks this is MY problem, because I've read it in the e-mails he has sent to some of our friends - to be fair, I have to ask myself if there ARE any ways that I may have acted in that way, and if I have, I need to change that. But also, strangely enough, I'm pretty sure these ideas (that I'm that way) have come from his oldest (female) friend - someone who has been really supportive of our marriage. To be fair to her, she has also said to me that she thinks he really needs personal counselling.<p>But she has also persistently refused to recognize his bullying of me - she tells me I have to stop being negative - I keep telling her I'm just standing up for myself - she's known him a long time, but hasn't spent more than a couple of days with him at any given time for many years, and when she does see him, he's being sociable and friendly. I think she finds it very hard to accept that this person she thinks so highly of could really treat me as badly as I tell her he has, and she has put the idea in his head that I have a lot of repressed anger and am passive/aggressive because I have been dependent on him while I was a SAHM.<p>Well, I know my own attitude is the best testimony as to whether I am passive/aggressive - and you know, I have a life to live - I enjoy myself a lot with my other friends. I have close emotional relationships with my family - mother, father and sister, and many wonderful friends - I get on well with my boss in a close working relationship - I have consistently got on well with people all of my working life - and I have positive plans for my own future, regardless of what he does.
I don't think frustration is evidence of PA traits.<p>But I guess these are the next accusations that will be levelled at me once we get into counselling. Hmmm. Well, I'll just be myself.
How's that?
Thanks for listening. Being able to talk here is one of the most helpful things of all.
God bless you, FHO
Take care,
Odile

H away for 3 days working - has called me every day - affectionate and warm - what gives? Taking this opp to chill out by myself and enjoy my son - sleep well at night, read in bed - don't rush to cook a big dinner - RELAX - could I live w/out him? Hmmm.
^^BUMP^^
Odile

H away for 3 days working - has called me every day - affectionate and warm - what gives? Taking this opp to chill out by myself and enjoy my son - sleep well at night, read in bed - don't rush to cook a big dinner - RELAX - could I live w/out him? Hmmm.
^^BUMP^^
Odile

I'm starting to slide a little and don't know if I'm doing the right thing. When my H was away, I was v happy - happy not to have to deal with him I guess - when he came back it all finally started getting to me - could really feel myself starting to slide down - found his cellphone - he's been hiding it lately - found that he has locked it with a code. I could still look at his e-mail a/c if I wanted to, but I haven't - have really felt myself rejecting that option. <p>It's like - I've changed from wanting to know WHAT he's doing - the desperately wanting to know what he's hiding - to - right now all I want is for him to be able to be honest with me and open up the computer and his phone to me himself. That's what I want now more than needing to know what's happening in the PRIVATE life. ARRGH! How that word hurts!<p>So he has locked me out, and it just makes me feel so sad. I'm tired of waiting, basically, and the thing is, the longer this goes on, the less willing I feel to work on our M. Yesterday, I felt, I just no longer have any feelings left for this man at all - he has lost my respect, admiration, and yes, love - I really don't love him anymore at all. I asked him Friday if he had managed to call the counselling center which he SAID he wanted to go to on Monday last week. He said no, he had "misplaced the number". I didn't press him.<p>Yesterday, he got controlling over the shopping list - I was headed in the direction of the store anyway to leave some stuff at the dump, and knowing he would get upset with me if I didn't go shopping while I was down there (waste of gas to make 2 trips in the same direction), I set about working on the shopping list he had started. He got all bent out of shape about it - said HE'D been planning on going shopping - well, I ended up getting mad at him - WHY was he mad at me b/c I was doing something normal and sensible which if I didn't do under normal circumstances, he would get mad at me for?<p>Afterwards, I realized, maybe I got in the way of some secret PLAN. I don't know. <p>Anyway, I went shopping - later we went out with the kids for a walk. We ended up arguing in the car about something stupid. He was looking at houses - he has some idea he wants to live out in the country, not in the town. I don't agree with this plan. He stopped to look at houses in a realtors window. He tried to talk to me about it and asked an obscure question. I said I didn't quite understand what he meant. He rolled his eyes like I'm so stupid. I flipped. I'm sick of being treated like this. Of course, if I get mad, I just prove to him what a cow I am, don't I. It's a vicious circle and I feel so trapped.<p>When we got home I asked him if he had any intention of calling the marriage counselors, because I am finding it very difficult to have any good will left. He said yes, he did intend to call them. I asked when, and he said he didn't know. I told him I wasn't going to wait forever. He said he wasn't asking me to wait forever. I said "I need to know from you whether you feel our marriage is something you want to save." He said it was. So I let up.<p>We were all invited to a party last night, and he had the choice whether or not he wanted to come. He decided he did want to come, even though it wasn't exactly his scene. I give him credit for trying to come along to something more "my style" - we were OK, and this morning he is very cheerful and has gone off to work with a smile.<p>I'm so confused. It's like - nothing happens - who was it who posted here and said all the things she did and nothing happened. But when she lost interest in doing anything to save the M, H started to come around. That's what I feel like. I'm ready to jack in the whole idea of MC and just ask him to leave.<p>I have lost all feelings towards this stranger who used to be my H, and I'm sick of living like this.<p>Any advice?<p>Odile

Am I just whingeing or what? Don't be afraid to take me to task if you think I need it. Maybe I'm the one afraid of confrontation.<p>^^BUMP^^
Odile

Hi odile,<p>Have you read about Plan B on the main site and in SAA? If you are not ready to start D proceedings, but have lost love for your H as you say, Plan B lets you separate from the hurt. You did say that while H was gone, you were much better. Maybe H needs to move out until he is ready to get counseling and work WITH you on your M. Will you and the boys be OK on your own?<p>Take care,
Estes

Dear Estes,
Yes I have read about Plan B, and also the thread about clarifying what Harleys mean about plan A. Feel like I am a little lost in the fog myself - H is back and forth like a yo-yo, and if I don't check his e-mail ac how do I know the causes of this? But I have to ask myself if this is what I want to live with and for how long? <p>I know this is not what I am willing to tolerate in my M long term. My H shows signs of moving towards counselling, and have not wanted to jeopardize any chance we might have.<p>The kids and I would struggle financially without him. The house is paid for - I don't have a mortgage. The court would probably award me custody and the right to live in the house until the youngest is 18. There is no law requiring a 50/50 split of the assets. He is not in much of a financial position to pay child support if he has to maintain another home.<p>I know that if he did leave, I would not want to see him or speak to him AT ALL. I'm tired of being dragged in and out of his sphere of influence and all that comes with it.<p>Its just taking that step and telling him. We're supposed to spend Easter overnight where he works (at the monastery!) then visit with his brother on Mon after Easter. If I can just cool it this week, maybe after Easter, after we've had family time and time with his B, maybe then will be time to approach things more sturdily.<p>That's what I'm trying to tell myself today.<p>Thank you for checking up on me. I appreciate it. I'm still struggling - starting to snap at the kids which isn't a good sign.<p>Odile