Ok, <p>Alostwife,<p>I was already replying to mm when you posted directed towards me, so I wasn't ignoring you or answering you, I merely did not know that you had asked something of me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Don't you think his M would have a better shot if he was sincere and figured this out with the help of his wife? I mean marriage is team work, one cannot make it work on ones own.<hr></blockquote><p>I think he is sincere, and I think the marriage problems need to be figured out together, but I wonder if maybe it can be done without putting undue stress on his wife.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Also what about the guilt? <hr></blockquote><p>He is going to have guilt. And I am not letting anyone off the hook when it comes to that. He did something wrong, and he needs to realize it and make amends. I said he would suffer in silence, and that is what he will do, suffer. But, he is human, and being human we all err. The main question I think is presented here is if this "telling" is something that would be used to aleviate guilt and therefore allow him to get something off his chest and onto hers without him being able to feel the full effect of his wrongdoing.<p>As far as the ow loving him as much as he loved her, I doubt that mm loved her in the true sense of the word love. <p>Maggierose,<p>I do think that the lap sitting and carressing and kissing is physical, but I was trying to ensure that there was no contact of a sexual nature where the wife of mm could possibly be exposed to a STD. If there was such contact, then there is every reason for him to tell. <p>I must have missed the first affair story somewhere in the other posts, I have not read everything related to mm carefully, and with all the stuff I read round these parts sometimes things get missed.<p>I think it would depend on what the first affair was and when and the details regarding the affair for me to decide if this is a pattern or something that could shed much light on this present issue.<p>Answering/getting answers to posts here can be somewhat of a crapshoot. MM has not been around here for very long, and I don't know him personally. There are some people here who's posts I can answer having tons of background information and from knowing them and their story since I joined MB back in '00. I answer some posts here just straight from the gut. I say what I feel, and what my impressions of the situation are. That may not always be the best idea, and I may judge some situations completely off the green. I think my part on this board is giving the answers I see. I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again, I promise. The thing is, my impression here is that this person messed up, and is doing what he can to fix the situation. I cannot be in his head and know if he is bsing us, but then, why would he bother spending time here if he just wanted to bs? I am going to take this fella at his word, and my answer only comes from what he has said. If there are other parts of the story that I don't know then my answer doesn't mean beans and I think he can realize that. I may change my mind tomorow, but for now, knowing what I know, I am going to stick with him not telling.<p>I will reserve my final answer though. Let me sleep on it, and carefully read the preceeding posts. <p>MM, toss me an email, and let me see if I can get into your head a bit. My email is at the bottom of all my posts.<p>I dunno though, something tells me that he may have learned a little lesson somewhere recently.<p>But then again, only mm can tell for sure what is in his heart.<p>I have got to get this little one to bed though, so can we table this till tomorow? I really enjoy being able to have civil conversation with people and have an honest exchange of ideas. This is one thing you won't find over at gloryb!<p>Goodnight all!<p>Elizabeth

justthewife;<p>Oh sorry the last post asking if he was ignoring stuff wasn't directed towards you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] and don't worry i didn't think you were ignoring me. I myself find it difficult sometimes to keep up with all the multiple posts. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am just wondering if mm has even ever pondered, for real, about telling his wife, or if he is just looking for validation because he feels the guilt weight over his shoulders.<p>I am sure that a marriage is pretty doomed once one of the two persons involved goes around carrying guilt and silent pain. It will eventually turn into something ugly and then MM won't be happy! Would his wife be happy is he isn't? My answer is that, if she loves him, no she won't.<p>But that just comes from my own personal experience and everybody is entitled to eat their own slice of life as they wish.
As I said before, he is a grown up, he can screw-enjoy his life as much as he pleases.

HI,
I just thought that I would respond.
My H had a brief affair with best friend 13 yrs ago, decided it was wrong, never told me. Carried secret for the next 6 years. Still changed the course of our life.<p>Years later we were living in another city and I encouraged him to visit her on a trip through her city. This restarted affair which then continued for the next 6 years. Once again didn't tell me, thoght he didn't want to hurt me. In the meantime he picked me and our relationship to pieces to justify to himself his addiction to her. Emotionally, verbally abused me. I kept crying out what is wrong, went to counselling with him, tried to leave him twice, but he convinced me to stay. I thought it was all my thought, never doubted him, began to think I was crazy, that I was imagining things worse than they really were.
Meanwhile husband was treating even his family terribly and becoming a very angry man.
When I discovered A and finally found out the true extent of it what do you think. He lost immediately all the anger, abusive ways, felt relief, thanked me for releasing him from the pressure of maintaining a double life. I was shattered of course but also relieved that I finally had truth, that I hadn't imagined problems and now saw a chance to work it out.
I was however angry that I was now 41 and initial affair started when I was 28 and again when I was 35 that so many years I didn't have the facts to decide for myself what I wanted. The OW is devestated and bitter that she wasted so many years of her life too as he had promised to leave me, which he didn't.
My message to you
tell your wife you are only harming yourself, your wife, your OW, your relationship and robbing yourselves of an opportunity to fix whatecer was wrong that led to your attraction, or each choose what is best for yourselves.
Good luck
C&S

I can't sleep. So I decided to hit the computer and see what the story is here.<p>MM came here on Feb. 16, today is March 12. He has been here less than one month.<p>I started to go through his posts one by one, reading all responses carefully, starting with "I need advice". In that first post he briefly explains his first affair.<p>I had one brief affair years ago with an old girlfriend. That lasted a couple months and it ended and that was the end of that. <p>But I digress from my original train of thought.<p>MM, I have learned, has gone in less than one short month from being in the midst of an EA, some would classify it a PA; to coming out of the fog, going through withdrawl, and lately (the past week or so) bouncing back and forth over the question of no contact/remaining friends, and now the latest dilema, should he tell his W?<p>In this short time he has recieved over 350 responses (admittidly some his own response to questions asked of his post), and in return has responded to one post. If I err, I apologize. 2 people have started threads directed at MM, and one recieved 30 replies, the other 3.<p>During this same time period there have been 42 threads started with no replies to any of them. <p>At this point I am feeling like an idiot. Not only could I not sleep because this was on my mind, but I have gone thru pages and pages of posts to come up with these numbers.<p>I have been humbled and put in my place. I have no business spending valuable time on a married man who needs counseling and has some sort of attention problem, when many of my betrayed friends are hurting and in need of counsel. <p>I am not suggesting that MM's questions and needs have no place here, he can recieve valuable information and insight at MB. <p>I am suggesting that I need to rethink my priorities, as something has gone terribly wrong.<p>MM,
I hope that you find the answers that you need. I do think though that this process, and it is a process, has been rushed along. You may have wanted to please and adjusted your feelings accordingly, or you may think that your feelings have done a 360 in this short period of time. Nevertheless, I think that it would be wise for you to gain more insight through formal counseling. We can offer things here, but I have a feeling that there is a need for more than we can offer.<p>I still think that telling your wife the events of the past few months would be rushed if you did it without seeking the advice of a trained professional. There may be deeper problems within you that we cannot see or understand. If you told your wife now, I have a feeling that you would expect her to recover from this event as quickly as you have, and that is something I can guarentee will not happen.<p>I wish you the best of luck in your marriage.<p>Elizabeth<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

Cold hard facts of life. No sugarcoating. Until you get OW off her pedestal, STOP saying she did nothing wrong, STOP describing her as a friend past, present or future, AND END CONTACT, there is ZERO chance of significant recovery. So far you have expressed NO GUILT, only embarassment at having made a fool out of yourself, and OW ALLOWED you to do that. She bears exactly 50% responsibility for this simply by the fact that she allowed this behavior to continue. You were both PLAYING AROUND, MESSING AROUND, you even said, "as long as it is enjoyable, what is wrong with it?" Now think carefully about your definition of the word FRIEND, I am sure it is quite different at this point from what most people would say. So here goes, I am actually LOL thinking about this in my mind, I don't mean to make fun of you or anyone else, but this is just too funny. Your company assigns you to work with another company, you will be working alone on a project with a person from that company. The person is a man. You really like the guy. You are now friends. Here is how you guage whether a relationship is a friendship or something else. You begin to obsess about him sometimes 15 hours a day, you do not hide this from him, you tell him many times that you love him, he even says it back a few times, you touch his face, you stroke his hair, you kiss him 3 times, you hold his hand, you kiss his hand, you have him sit on your lap in a private room at a club while you massage his neck, you sit on the floor and hold him in your arms with his face neck to your face. He is never the agressor, never initiates, but never says stop, gives you a valentines card allows himself to be pursued. The same rules of conduct apply whether a friend is male or female. There is a very clear line that is drawn between being friends and lovers. Another thing, my H tried this kind of stuff with 2 of my best freinds, they both came to me and told me about it, that is what FRIENDS do for each other, they have each others BESTS INTERESTS AT HEART. Do you see how rediculous it is to call what you had with OW a friendship? The use of the word FRIEND in your situation is an insult to my intelligence. I finally came up with a word that decribes what you have told us. It doesnt sound like you were lovers or friends, it sounds like you were PLAYMATES, and because of no sign of guilt from either you or OW, only a desire to keep this quiet, it makes this especially YYUUUUCCKKKKYYYY.

JustTheWife, I agree with your last post, something HAS gone terribly wrong. I am allowing my self to be TRIGGERED by the mm threads, and I dont think it is helping mm, or myself, or anyone else. I am actually making myself sick trying to get mm to "see the light". I will stop.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by justthewife:
<strong>I can't sleep. So I decided to hit the computer and see what the story is here.<p>MM came here on Feb. 16, today is March 12. He has been here less than one month.<p>I started to go through his posts one by one, reading all responses carefully, starting with "I need advice". In that first post he briefly explains his first affair.
I had one brief affair years ago with an old girlfriend. That lasted a couple months and it ended and that was the end of that. <p>But I digress from my original train of thought.<p>MM, I have learned, has gone in less than one short month from being in the midst of an EA, some would classify it a PA; to coming out of the fog, going through withdrawl, and lately (the past week or so) bouncing back and forth over the question of no contact/remaining friends, and now the latest dilema, should he tell his W?<p>In this short time he has recieved over 350 responses (admittidly some his own response to questions asked of his post), and in return has responded to one post. If I err, I apologize. 2 people have started threads directed at MM, and one recieved 30 replies, the other 3.<p>During this same time period there have been 42 threads started with no replies to any of them. <p>At this point I am feeling like an idiot. Not only could I not sleep because this was on my mind, but I have gone thru pages and pages of posts to come up with these numbers.<p>I have been humbled and put in my place. I have no business spending valuable time on a married man who needs counseling and has some sort of attention problem, when many of my betrayed friends are hurting and in need of counsel. <p>I am not suggesting that MM's questions and needs have no place here, he can recieve valuable information and insight at MB. <p>I am suggesting that I need to rethink my priorities, as something has gone terribly wrong.<p>MM,
I hope that you find the answers that you need. I do think though that this process, and it is a process, has been rushed along. You may have wanted to please and adjusted your feelings accordingly, or you may think that your feelings have done a 360 in this short period of time. Nevertheless, I think that it would be wise for you to gain more insight through formal counseling. We can offer things here, but I have a feeling that there is a need for more than we can offer.<p>I still think that telling your wife the events of the past few months would be rushed if you did it without seeking the advice of a trained professional. There may be deeper problems within you that we cannot see or understand. If you told your wife now, I have a feeling that you would expect her to recover from this event as quickly as you have, and that is something I can guarentee will not happen.<p>I wish you the best of luck in your marriage.<p>Elizabeth<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JTW......."MM" has been posting in another AOL forum for months now....since October, receiving the very same advice that he has gotten here....and we have read his responses, over and over, and they have been almost verbatim what he has said here. "It would never progress to a physical affair" because the woman is in total control of her emotions", etc,ad nauseum. He has been told repeatedly that it is an affair, that she has not only allowed it but encouraged it by her lack of telling him no, discouraging the contact and nothing has sunk in.....He is so far in denial that it's not even funny. The only difference between his posts there and the posts here is that he admits to kissing her....Many of us tried to help him , over and over, and have beaten our heads against a wall in the process. Sometimes, it's best just to let the chips fall where they may and I have the distinct impression they are going to crumble around his ears and those of his wife. I doubt very much that his wife is going to be very pleased to hear all of his justifications that he's used here...

I'd rather you suffer in silence and make positive efforts in the marriage than bring her into it. <p>How nieve. I did not know about my wife's affair until I found her with the OM. I had worked myself into a depression, trying for six months to reach my wife. She did not want to kiss me, to hug me, to make love. She did not want to spend time with me. I could not figure it out. I was bouncing into that barrier that her dishonesty created and I had no idea that a boundary existed. The affair even ended for four months and I still hit that barrier with no idea why or how it got there. I was miserable and was falling out of love with my wife.<p>Her guilt kept her from acting normally. She was an alien and I did not know it. She has since told me that she wished she had told me in the beginning.<p>The one thing you really have to do is make sure it doesn't happen again.<p>He can't do that. He has proved that already. <p>Did I mention that you should never get into this kind of position again? ever?<p>Too bad he has already had two affairs already. Kind of makes it a moot point to suggest that he not do this again. His wife is the only person that could help him to not do this again. Something is missing from himself or his marriage that leads him to stray.<p>Everyone raise your hand if you think his wife is going to give him what is missing if she never knows what is wrong.<p>Ugh, I can't believe we wasted so much effort on mm.

He is going to have guilt. And I am not letting anyone off the hook when it comes to that. He did something wrong, and he needs to realize it and make amends. I said he would suffer in silence, and that is what he will do, suffer. <p>DO you not think his wife will be able to notice the suffering? What is she to think while he suffers in silence? Verbal communication is only a small portion of communication. I can TELL when my wife is thinking about something that is bothering her - even when she denies it. He won't be suffering alone. His suffering will make his wife suffer right along with him, only with her, she will have no clue why.<p>When my wife ended the affair the first time, she thought she could recover on her own as well. She even went to counseling alone (and without my knowledge), trying to deal with the issue. It never worked. During that time, I was miserable. I can only imagine that if presented with the oportunity to have my own affair, I likely would have. I even told her of my fear of doing so. In the end, she was not able to deal with it on her own. I never did learn to love her in the manner she wanted because she never was able to tell me. In the end, she went back to the OM.<p>MM may never go back but there is no proof that such will never happen or that it will never happen with another woman. We love those that fill our ENs.<p>But, he is human, and being human we all err. The main question I think is presented here is if this "telling" is something that would be used to aleviate guilt and therefore allow him to get something off his chest and onto hers without him being able to feel the full effect of his wrongdoing.<p>It does not get it onto her chest. My wife feels no less horrible for what she did with me knowing. In some respects, she may feel worse but we both can build our marriage together now with full knowledge or our faults and our needs for improvement. He WILL feel the full effect of his wrong doing regardless of his wife knowing. His wife will suffer regardless. Protecting her from the truth will only make matters worse.

One thing I was wondering... does mm even read the posts that say anything remotedly similar to "Man tell...", or well he stops at the tell?<p>I know that once a person has made up his-her mind it is nearly impossible to change. I have tried time and time again during my life to help people step over the edge and fall. Never worked, never will. All we can do is give him a little pat on the back and say:<p>"Good luck. The cliff is very deep, and no one rents parachutes around here. Write me if you survive", turn around, and let them fall. With some luck he'll learn something and will have the courage to pick himself up.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
I find it interesting that each of the people who responded are the BS. I'd like to hear from the WS who did not tell. <p>But more than likely, they are not on this board. They are living their life, moving on -- learning from their mistakes --but trying to improve.<hr></blockquote><p>YO MM .....<p>I posted this on both your other threads, and you obviously CHOSE not to read or acknowledge it ... a symptom of living in denial I would guess. <p>Please Read:<p>Testimony by a WS of "WHY" you tell
Authored by Regretting (copied from Recovery Brd)
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Great topic. One many people, including myself, have been or are struggling with.<p>In my case, my H found out about the A before I could tell him. And then the questions started. I had never planned on telling him about the A at all let alone any of the details. I was resistant at first but eventually came clean on all of it. <p>In retrospect, I can say that I didn't want him to know and didn't want to give details because of my embarrassment. I didn't want to hurt him but it was the embarrassment that was the biggest thing. But despite the embarrassment on my part and the hurt on his, I believe (and I think he would agree) we are better off in the long run for it. <p>Since the inital disclosure, there have been questions that we deam "details". These are some of the hardest questions to answer but I do. I always tell him that these answer are details and let him descide if he really wants to know. If he does, I tell. Honesty and openness is one of the biggest things is rebuilding trust. <p>Although we both continue to struggle with is knowing better than now knowing, we have recently found that the details aren't as bad as they were a few months back. And it is hard not to revisit things once they have been said. Dr. Harley says to reveal everything and the leave it alone. That is easier said than done. These conversations are always ackward and difficult but honesty and openness is best in my opinion.<p>Once upon a time, I could not have imagine telling my H the things I have told him over the last few months. But now that I have...I'm really glad I did. We are working on recovering our M. In order to do that, we both have be be playing on a level playing field with the same rules! <p>Telling all is the only way to do that!
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It seems that people are getting tired of my posts and questions, so I will vanish, be a lurker.<p>I think, however, you are not helping people who may have stumbled onto this site and are wondering what to do.<p>You may have found the answers that work for you. You may have found THE answer. But it reminds me of talking to someone who has found Jesus. Instead of listening, you pontificate and speak down from your pedestal to those of us still finding are way.<p>I can tell you -- you are preaching to the choir. But to those of us still in the fog, or whatever you want to call it, the all-knowing, one way or the highway approach simply does not work.<p>I wish you all the best. Thanks for the help.

MM,<p>I'm not sure what you WANT us tell you. I apologize that you're not hearing what you want to hear, yet, you somehow expect we should tell you that having the A but keeping it a secret and trying to Rebuild with Harley's principals should be okay.<p>You are at a site where most if us try and use these principlas to rebuild marriages. Seems you may want to hear how to rebuild, but only want to use the methods that you find convenient or suit you.<p>We're being as honest as we can with you, we've told you what you participated in with this woman was an A, you deny that. We've told you that being Radically Honest with your wife is the best and most reliable way to restore and rebuild your marriage, and you don't want to hear it. You prefer to take a different route. <p>I'm sure you would be able to eventually find a site where they would advocate and support you keeping your A a secret from your wife. But in all honesty, I fear you'll never find the true closeness and intimacy your are seeking from a marriage.<p>Please do still post, and lurk, you can never know what story may pop up that may strike a chord with you.<p>Best,
Jo<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>Instead of listening, you pontificate and speak down from your pedestal to those of us still finding are way.<p>I can tell you -- you are preaching to the choir. But to those of us still in the fog, or whatever you want to call it, the all-knowing, one way or the highway approach simply does not work.<p>I wish you all the best. Thanks for the help.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dude yet another cop out?<p>Come on, no one is preaching one way or the highway if you don&#8217;t want cold hard facts then your right you should vanish.
There are plenty here who would help, but you haven&#8217;t given them the chance, you know your answer before you hit the submit button. You also already knew what people here would say prior to hitting the submit button. So don&#8217;t cry foul.<p>Sure my post to you was a bit brash, even borderlines angry. But that fact in itself should help exemplify how seriously in the wrong direction you have yourself pointed. People here have lived with being deceived or been the deceiver. In either case we have lived with the pain of deceit, we have lived with WS&#8217;s who thought they could do it alone and not hold it against us. We have lived with WS who really had great intentions of ending it only to find themselves back in the sack because of a week moment with no one to stop them. <p>We come here in droves trying to piece our lives back together because when our spouse was at the very point you are at, they too would not listen to their conscience, or any one. Instead they left to themselves to handle the situation. They left themselves set up to inflict more pain on themselves and us. Nothing personal but you can&#8217;t do it alone, and for us it is unnerving that you won&#8217;t let yourself see that.
So yes we do get a bit rash because you are at a point where so much hurt, so much wrong, so many sleepless nights, tears, broken dreams and hopelessness could be avoided.<p>To us you&#8217;re like the guy in all the sci-fi movies we watch. You&#8217;re walking around the corner trying to be a hero but we all know your going to be swallowed by this big ugly monster, and no matter how loud we yell at the screen in front of us, your still going. <p>If you leave over this, I truly wish you well. When it all comes out, and it will. When you&#8217;re looking at the your life with no clue what went wrong and in disbelief that it could have went this far. Then you be sure to remember you heard it here first. Remember that we are actually here to help, but you have to be ready. By then you&#8217;ll either be willing to listen or you&#8217;ll just walk away from your family because the mess you&#8217;ve created is to much to deal with.<p>But if you are willing to try, we&#8217;ll be here to help you cope with comforting your W as she cries over the physical betrayal. We&#8217;ll be here to explain not, why it so important to tell of this savable indiscretion, but rather why you now have to cover every illicit detail of the sexual encounters, conversation and all the deep dark depths of your betrayal. We&#8217;ll cheer you on, saying you can put your life back together as you try to live with the guilt you have so needlessly thrown on yourself. We&#8217;ll be here to encourage you to follow the rules and try to help explain why they are so vital. <p>I can&#8217;t stand Dr. Laura, but I love her expression because it so often fits. &#8220;Just do the right thing.&#8221;<p>oz

Sheesh, enough already! mm if what you want is jump, then jump, now what do you want?
Do you want us to tell you "Oh crap don't jump!"
Or "Yeah man jump!, you will fly and all!"
Or "Sh*t I ain't gonna clean those brains mm left down there"<p>*shrugs*<p>Ok I'll please you then: "mm, you are right, your wife has no right to know what is in your heart, it does not have anything to do with her neither anybody else. You are right, how couldn't I see it before, such illumination should change the life of everybody here. ALL OF YOU! Be ashamed!!! why the hell are you crying and suffering because your spouse lied??? Get a grip! Move on be happy and rejoice! NOW!"<p>Hehehehe sorry I just couldn't resist. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BTW most of the WS here are talking to you from the deep ends of a cliff, and the BS are down there with them, dragged on their fall. The only one that could be on a soap box or pedestal of any kind is you my man.

Amen.<p>
Now this (below) has nothing to do with him really, more of things that I feel and think, and I would like to share that with my fellow MBers so you can get a feel for my pov, and not think I am a complete loon.<p>
I told everyone that I had been wrong before and would be again. In fact I promised. Now that I have gotten the bigger picture I will whole heartedly admit that I was wrong to answer mm's post with a gut reaction.<p>I still think I am right though about getting some professional help before he tells her. Can you just imagine being her?<p>MM: Honey, we need to talk. I told another woman I loved her, stroked her hair and obsessed about it for 15 hours a day. But I want you to understand I know what I did was a bit off, and because I have come to this understanding with myself, please accept my half hearted apology and let's move on with no further discussion as I have hashed and rehashed this out on various boards on the internet for months.<p>MM's Wife: Pardon the f out of me?<p>MM: Yes, let's not linger on this unpleasant topic. I've lingered enough for both of us.<p>I have been blindsided - and it truly sucks. It is a little different when there are a few clues, and a bit of distancing, lipstick on the collar, late nights at the office. Yep, here's me. I've been blindsided and gotten the ease into it method of becoming a BS. Aren't I lucky?!<p>If he just up and decides he is going to tell and has no idea what is wrong inside of him or what direction he wants to go, BAM. It is like getting hit by a Mac truck. I won't even wish that on my [censored]. In my opinion, on this board he comes off as decisive and a bit controlling. Now here I am going with my gut again, and I think he needs to make a plan on how to tell, to do it in the kindest way possible, if there is one. <p>Longing,<p>I can understand why you disagreed with my point of view, but before you tore me apart (and did a very complete job of it) I wish you had read the entire thread, including where I said that:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> At this point I am feeling like an idiot..... I have no business spending valuable time on a married man who needs counseling and has some sort of attention problem....I need to rethink my priorities, as something has gone terribly wrong.
<hr></blockquote><p>I think that you would be wise to remember that although being a BS sucks the big one, everyone reacts differently. And being that I am a woman and his wife is a woman, I might have some insight as to what it is like to be a woman discovering her husband has strayed. Not to make your life experience as a man any less, but it is just different. <p>I would also hope that you would understand that the replies I give are my feelings. My feelings are valid and even if they are different from yours that does not make them wrong.<p>A person cannot say that because they experienced a situation and a reaction to that situation, this is the way it will happen for all people. I am glad that you had the experience of having a WS who "feels no less horrible for what she did" because when my x told me what he did once it was as if a burden had been lifted from his shoulders and he no longer had to deal with any guilt regarding the event. People react differently to the same situation, and no situation is ever truly the same.<p>I think that I already made it clear that I understood I messed up, and although I freely admit it and will point my mistakes out and correct them whenever possible, it did not make me warm and fuzzy inside to be told my thoughts were "nieve" (sic), and to have my feelings about a situation dismissed so completely.<p>I am not angry, but I am feeling a bit like a small piece of nothing. I have said I was wrong quite a few times about this, and even lost sleep over the whole silly thing because something didn't sit right with me. I think that is more than sufficient.<p>Elizabeth

I have to wonder if mm's decision to leave has anything to do with his refusal to face his first affair? Seems kind of strange to me! I hope you find the help you need. I do think that these 'affairs' will come back to you sooner or later.

TELL!

mm, could it be that you don't get any responses from WSs who didn't tell because these people found their marriages FAILED? and so they don't post on these boards?