Regretting,<p>Stop dancing and calm down. More than anything you can do is give it time and patience. You are looking at upwards to 2 years for all of this to heal.<p>As I stated to you before, try initiating the conversations with him. You are then taking responsibility for this. Ask him if he wants to talk about somethings, tell him the things that bother you concerning the A. You drive the bus so to speak and see if he starts to open up a bit.<p>I realize this is very difficult to do. As I said before the standard response of a WS is to "move past this as fast as possible", but healing takes time and conversation. If you take the risk, I think he will come to appreciate it and start to talk with you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

In my household, my H eventually saw and felt that I "got it", that I truly understood what I had done. This happened over a 2-3 year span. Don't go by the time table, everyone heals differently.<p>I knew when it happened too. It is when I personally, understood "why" I had the A. I couldn't truly understand "why" for such a long time. At first, I blamed my failing M for the A. But, I still struggled with "how could I do such a thing"? Slowly, I came to realize that the M is a separate issue from the A. I had other options! I could have separated, divorced, run into the streets, all sorts of things. The A just isn't justified, no matter what the circumstances are.<p>So, I had to look deep within myself and my IC channeled all my issues in the right direction. Today, I can tell you exactly why (too long to post here) and I take full responsibility. My failing M is a completely different issue to hash out later, after we get through the devestation caused by the A.<p>Once I knew why, I grieved for many many months and I was shaking in the corner. I found out so much about myself. It was very hard to look at. Someone else posted (a BS) that they almost wish they could see their WS suffer in this way. It sounds so harsh, but they are right. When this happens, you know and your BH knows that you "get it". It is self examination and it hurts to the core.<p>This is when true recovery begins. Wish I could have told you a nice story, but reality has hit us over the head.

Alostwife: "I just want some extra reasurance as: "Alostwife, OW has nothing to do against you. You are so much better than she ever was" I know I know kinda childish, but believe me sometimes I really would like my H to say this things on his own because he really sees it, not only to inflate my ego."<p>I don't think this is childish at all. I imagine something like this from my WW all the time - not just "the SF with him was never very rewarding." I'm more than just a guy wanting good sex, and I know that now more than I ever did before. Since OM isn't gone from our lives yet, I'll just keep hoping for something like this from my W. I guess it'd be kind of like getting a really nice boquet of flowers to many women. Not a big earth-changing deal, but a psychological boost nonetheless!<p>persevere!

2long,
It is good to know I am not the only one!
He does say little things on time to time that make me feel real good. Lately we found a pic of her on the net (and believe me I am soooo tempted to put a link here and make you all tell me what the hell shes got that I don't [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ). Anyways he saw her again and was like "Ewwww!"<p>That made my week teehee!<p>(((lotsa hugglez)))
I know this wont be the same coz I am not your w but hey, You are great!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks again to everyone for your suggestions. I have been lurking around here long enough to see what a helpful site this can really be. Sometimes we have a hard time understanding one anothers point of view. It is very helpful sometimes to hear it from someone who is in a similar position but outside your particular situation. (Does any of that make sense?)<p>Anyway, thanks. As I have said earlier, some of the suggested things I have been doing. You comments have given me the validation that I am on the right track. Others have given me new ideas and avenues to explore.<p>I have found this site and all of you very helpful. Not just with this particular thing but with other things that maybe I just read and didn't responde to. This has been a complimentary tool with my IC and MC as I travel down this road of self dicovery and marriage recovery.

I think your Question is what more can I do to tell my spouse I am sorry? I think as WS's we can tell the BS sorry as many times as we want. We can tell them everything about the affair. While all of this is important I think what the BS really wants is for us to REALLY feel the deep down pain we have caused them. I think the best way to do this is to put ourselves in their place for a minute. Just imagine your spouse in bed with someone else. When I actually thought about that it sent cold shivers down my body. Times that by a million and add many emotional thoughts and images on top of that and then maybe we will begin to understand the agony we inflicted on our spouses. We will never know what it is like to constantly have thoughts of the affair or to be fine one minute and then be an emotional wreck the next. <p> As you see we will never total feel or understand the hurt we embedded into our spouses but with lots of prayer, lots of time,lots of love, lots of patience, lots of communication maybe one day we can regain part of the trust and part of the marriage back that we so cruelly threw away.<p> Love in Christ, <p> cajunky<p>[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: cajunky ]</p>

Regretting: While I don't know all the gory details of your attempts at recovery, I can tell you what NOT to do. My WS does all of these and they all interefere greatly w/our recovery, so avoid them at all costs!<p>Don't:
Lie about ANYTHING.<p>Refuse to make adjustments in your life that are necessary to keep distance btwn you and OM.<p>Say you "get it" until you really do.<p>Say you've taken responsibility for it and then tell people about all of your reasons for doing it.<p>Complain about the angry outbursts - overcoming H's anger is a long process. Be patient. Ask yourself what you expected would be the consequences of breaking your marriage vows.<p>Tell people how tough your life is when you are responsible for creating the environment you now live in. Accept any and all consequences.<p>Say "God has forgiven me, why can't you"? Many people don't understand that you cannot just confess your sins to God, you must take steps toward repentance. Take the steps if only for yourself and your personal healing. Christians are required to forgive for their own healing alone. However, reconciliation with debtors is not required and can only be achieved when the WS is truly sorry. Being truly sorry encompasses so many things other than the words. You must change your life and show your H in tangible ways.<p>You do sound remorseful to me, the trick is showing your H. It is a ton of work that is extremely emotionally exhausting but as Dr. Phil says, you made a mess of it, it's your responsibility to clean up the mess. You may have to jump through hoops but your love for your H will be apparent to him.<p>Good Luck!

While I agree with everyone, JL's and Kim101's posts hit the nail the closest for me. I have completely quit asking my H anything about the A or bringing it up or alluding to it in any way. Why? Because his responses infuriate me. I will know it is safe to deal with MY stuff regarding the A when he has figured out HIS stuff. Until then, he has nothing to offer me.<p>My H has NO excuse for his lack of empathy. He was the BS in his previous Ms, so I should not have to tell him how it feels. Back when I was still being stupid enough to try to get his help with it, it got to the point where even quoting his own words about his own BS-hood back to him didn't even break through his denial. That was when I recognized the futility of it.<p>What I am waiting for is the outward manifestation of an inner process.<p>I need to SEE that he has finally faced what he did and that I was totally undeserving (especially considering that *I* am the only FAITHFUL W he's ever had) of what he did to me. That he has figured out WHY he did it, WHERE the road to his A actually began (his latest lame "insight": "I should have just said no."--to what? Pursuing the OW? She didn't ask him; he asked her!), and HOW he will handle it the next time he finds himself looking down that road.<p>Also, he needs to own WHAT part of him allowed him to betray me and our M and learn how to control it. ("It felt like I was watching someone else do it" just does not cut the mustard!)<p>Some of the ways I might be able to perceive this inner ownership and insight would be for HIM to anticipate the things that I may see and feel and acknowledge them ahead of time--beat me to it:<p>Instead of giving me a Valentine's Day card that is pretty much a carbon copy of last year's V-day card given to me during his A without any acknowledgement of that, he could have anticipated that I probably will find the words of this card as meaningless as I now know last year's card was and address that in some way.<p>Apologize for the deception of last year's card. Acknowledge that he was purposely trying to deceive me last year and how despicable that is and how he knows it will probably be impossible for me to believe the words in this year's card because of that.<p>Even if he isn't sure that something will affect me, the very fact that he gave thought process to it would tell me he is well aware of the damage he did to me:<p>Wedding invitation in mail. H tries to give it to me to deal with, RSVP, etc., apparently totally oblivious to the pain a wedding invitation would cause someone who has had to face what a sham HER wedding was. When I say I don't want to deal with it and I'm not going. He says, "Why not?" DUH!!!!! The fact that this sort of thing doesn't occur to him shows me that he has no appreciation for what he did to me and my perception of the last 10 years of my life.<p>In your case, Regretting, I don't know what your H may be looking for, but it may be things like this that would seem to be natural to anyone with empathy. It helps to filter it through your H's lenses. I do this all the time around here. Comments I would once have made about infidelity when we were both former BS I now try out in my head first to see how it might be perceived by him now that he is a WS and remain quiet if I think it will cause him pain.<p>Maybe you can do that about anything you two see, hear, or experience together. In addition to your own perceptions, try to feel them from his perspective, and if you get ANY sense that it may affect him, be the first to notice that possibility out loud to him.<p>If my H did this and it was something that hadn't even crossed my mind, I would still appreciate that it crossed his and that he cared enough about me to look at it that way. Chances are, though, that it's already crossed my mind many, many times, so for him to finally see it for himself would be a major improvement from my POV.<p>Being aware of dates and events in the context of the A is very important in this process to me. Every single thing that happened during the A was a crime committed against me because it was a conspiracy against me. My dignity was stolen. My choices were stolen. Everything that I thought was taking place at the time was not what was really taking place.<p>When I spent hours and hours deciding on, sacrificing for, and locating just the right birthday gift for my H, I was REALLY putting forth all that sacrifice and effort for someone who considered himself my EX-H, someone with no conscience at all about expecting me to launder his OW-soiled clothing, feed him before he went to OW, have sex with him after having sex with OW, etc.<p>It would be nice for HIM to remember all that and acknowledge the dastardliness of it himself for a change. I shouldn't have to point these things out to him.<p>I have done things I regret, and it is ME who remembers these transgressions and points them out and expresses my remorse and grief for causing such pain to someone I love. It just is not that hard to do when you put yourself in the other person's place and feel what they feel. If it doesn't come naturally, then those feelings probably are not there, and that is why people like me have a hard time accepting such pi$$-poor posturing as my H has exhibited so far.<p>I hope that might shine the light a little bit, but it really has to come from deep inside of you. I think we all know true remorse and genuine insight when we see it.<p>I thought of another example: TV show where a married woman has a mutual attraction to another man, and they each cast longing looks at each other as she walks into her house with her H. My H: "Well, there's a missed opportunity there, huh?"<p>I'm not implying that you're doing anything that insensitive, but this was one of the last things I bothered pointing out to my H as among the things he does that cause me increased pain. His response was to say that he was just making a joke and didn't realize it would affect me that way (minimizing and not taking responsibility for his actions). Translation to me: He has no insight into what happened, still does not "get it", has not faced what he did to me, has not faced who he really is and who I am and what I've been through.<p>Kind of like joking about rape to a rape victim. In fact, my response was, "What's next, go down to the burn care unit at the hospital and yell 'Fire!'?"<p>So if any of your responses could be interpreted as lacking in insight, minimizing, rationalizing or dodging responsibility, no matter how slightly, believe me, they will be. It may be why your H doesn't want to be specific or thinks it will start a fight.<p>[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

bump-im back adn need this for later. ill give update after work.

I know this sounds silly, but it bothers me that after seeing all of the pain and destruction he's caused, my H has never shed one tear over any of it. He is a fairly soft hearted man and has cried in front of me over many things. Including of course not being able to have HER, my former best friend. He actually used ME to profess his feelings to her and he was so mixed up, I was afraid he was suicidal. He sat here crying and doing the "I deserve to be happy, she's better than you" crap.<p>He's cried over other things too thru the years. But for all of the counseling we've had, and all of the depression I've experienced, he's never cried. He actually almost acted defensive at first when I found out the truth (he wouldn't tell, lied for 6 years. Was 'forced' to in counseling.) He managed to make ME look like the bad one. Even though he had sex with my former friend INCLUDING TAKING HER IN MY BED which almost killed me when I found out. I was sick to think I slept in that bed for all of that time he was lying. I had to re-do our upstairs and move bedrooms around, buy new furniture, etc. because of this. And sometimes I don't even like living here anymore. <p>I am very grateful that he's gone to counseling, came back to our marriage, etc. We were separated for 9 mos. But I guess he'll never really understand the hurt. It's always me asking him to read something that I can relate to, he never initiates anything. Because I couldn't sleep with his best friend and lie about it for that long, I can't expect him to understand what it truly feels like. It would be easier if I hadn't loved them both so much. My friendship was never resolved, and she never did admit the truth. <p>Sorry for rambling! I'm glad you are working on things. Please just show the remorse you feel, and do NOT try to make excuses or justify. You'll get nowhere with that! Good luck