My w is a master at taking things out of context to suit her purposes (and you darn well bet that is a disrespectful judgement, so don't bother calling me on it, I said it on purpose).<p>hoping4future...SNL, I think your wife wrote in to say you had performed some kind of "biological experiment" with another woman? Was that you, or did I just blunder? If it wasn't you, this still applies to your statements. If it was you, when you get to Heaven (if you're a Christian, speaking with relation to my point of view), you'll have a lot of explaining to do.<p>snl...I DID NOT perform any biological experiments on anyone (I am not a mad scientist, or a sane one either for that matter.). This recurring comment thinker makes arises out of a conversation over why the sexual aspects of a pa are considered so terrible and unforgiveable etc. etc. my pragmatic observation is that it is just biology, and that part is irrelevant....it is the whys that are important whether a pa occurs or not (aside from std, or pregnancy issues). That someone chose to be sexually physical with another is significant NOT because of the sex itself (the notion of damaged goods), but because of the fact one chose intimacy with another. Guys often get hung up on the fact there wife was sexual with another man, and don't even much care about the reasons it happened, just that it did....this is essentially a property mentality, my spouse is MINE and so forth, but they don't much care about how much she was touched before marriage, so what is the problem.... it is just biological acts, which in themself do not change the person at all, and are irrelevant to any future reality about the person. No different han the person getting in a car wreck, with the op, and having stitches, or broken bone...they are still the same person, and I doubt that injury would bother the bs much....sex is highly overated IMO....and before anyone asks, let me say, if my wife had an affair and was sexual, the sexual part wouldn't bother me at all.....what would bother me is why, and that is what I would assess....I figured out long ago I do not own her body, and that in fact it is just a body...this came about in contemplation over how difficult it is for many men to get over their wife being raped...I couldn't understand why that makes any difference to them (the sexual part, not that they were traumatized, that is a whole different issue), we are just bags of water, and carbon mostly, what the heck difference does it make what has been done to you sexually...our bodies are just transport vehicles for our brains, that is who you are, your thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams, that is who you love don't you? Those who only love someones body, I feel kinda sorry for actually.

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I'll be back later.....
[img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

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[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm sooooo confused......and I know it's not just because I'm a blonde. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I am not blond either, and just as confused...but I will stick my neck out and guess it has something to do with the rape reference.... a touchy subject under the best of circumstances.... fortuneately (on purpose, or by happenstance) faith did not elaborate (hope she does later)...I may have had to make an emergency run to the hospital judgeing by the icons.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

All well and good except for the fact that sexual intimacy is something only to be shared with your spouse.<p>You cannot control feelings. You can control actions. I can no less chose to not care for my wife than I could chose to not feel the pain of her A. I could fall in love with someone else. I could also take steps - action to make sure I do nothing with such a person and to instead turn to my marriage - or decide to end my marriage.<p>To become sexually intimate with someone else while within the bounds of marriage is a willful violation of trust and love. It is a conscious act to betray the one that trusts you the most.<p>It is an intimacy that was only to be shared with your spouse and it has nothing to do with anyone from your past. You are not married to them at the time.<p>You do a good job od disassociating the act of sex from the emotional involvement but it simply does not wash. For most people, that is when they are the most vulnerable and to open yourself up to someone else like that is a destruction of that vulnerability with your spouse.<p>You can't (well most can't) seperate the brain from what the body does. That is why when women are sexually assualted, they may feel the pain associated from such, long after their body retains no evidence of it. There is an intimacy with sexual contact that does not exist in any other form. It is that intimacy that is shared with someone else that is so damaging.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Longing ]</p>

ok the physical thing does haunt me a bit.
For me it wasnt a matter of possesion. It was a matter of care and protection. The reasons it happened are very important to me of course and that is why Im still working on fixing it. BUT what hurt doubly for me was the fact I waited for have sex with someone I married and loved. Yes Im a guy. Yes I had the opportunity. I gave my wife a gift of myself which she betrayed ALSO what hurts is that she did not care enough about me to not use a condom. So now I have had one sexual partner but have had to worry about everyone the OM has been with and his wife and the other OW the OM was sleeping with and so on.<p>Maybe it is as you say a property or territorial issue for some, but not for me. I think for a lot of people, men or women it is about betrayal of a gift you gave them if not virginity, but the gift of yourself. <p>maybe Im not being analytical enough for this thread.<p>bye!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>.... it is just biological acts, which in themself do not change the person at all, and are irrelevant to any future reality about the person. No different han the person getting in a car wreck,<hr></blockquote><p>How about the future reality that you may now be carrying a sexually transmitted disease?<p>You spend all these words trying to explain why thinkers (and our) feelings don't count. How many people telling you is it going to take before you see how completely you fail at what you're trying to do? <p>You fail because you are in a complete other realm than the rest of us here. You try to use verbiage, and your convoluted "logic" to explain away the damage you've done to thinkers heart and soul. These things need few words, and are not logical really. It matters not one tiny bit whether her pain is "logical" it just is.<p>David

s_n_l,<p>I thought I read months ago that you were going to stop starting threads altogether. And of all the threads to start...<p>No amount of words, sentences, or justificatory logic is going to make your statement about "sex with someone who is not your spouse being nothing more than biology" anything but ridiculous.<p>And yes, that was a disrespectful judgement, so don't bother calling me on it, I said it on purpose.<p>OneDay<p>p.s. If you are going to flame me s_n_l, please do it here. That way those who want to avoid this silliness can simply avoid one thread and not two. Thanks.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: OneDay ]</p>

Before I go on...<p>SNL, what is your belief regarding the Bible?

For crying out loud, snl, don't you realize how ridiculous and futile it is to "defend" this?<p>STOP!<p>I know you don't take orders, and God knows I'm not "ordering" you... but I am appealing to the little bit of sanity you still have ... <p>You have nothing to defend. You did what you did, and there **is NO DEFENSE**, just as there's no defence for what I did, or what my ex did, or what any WS on here did. <p>STOP, wouldya please?

HI, you analyzed ok...you (and longing too) pretty much said it is the emotional fallout that is the issue...I think that was my point, or did I not make it well? The "act" is over so is irrelevant, both of you made arguments that the act occured, that is the emotional side, and no one made any points about the person being any different, so it seems we are on the same wavelength.<p>HI... BUT what hurt doubly for me was the fact I waited for have sex with someone I married and loved. Yes Im a guy. Yes I had the opportunity. I gave my wife a gift of myself which she betrayed<p>snl...I know it hurts HI, would hurt me too, and does hurt my wife for the same reason as you...those are emotional issues...<p>what I wonder is why (and not saying you do) attach significance to this gift (and I felt the same way, so I think I understand, my w was the first)...as I matured in my thinking about life (and decades before my affair) I questioned everything, releigion, morality, ethics, all the whys....and one thing I contemplated was the issue of virginity....I came to realize it really is two things, one important one not. It is possible being a virgin is a very bad thing, something not immediately obvious due to our conditioning.<p>1. Is the condition of virginity, that in itself is unimportant, it is not a gift, it is nothing, there is no inherent value in the conditon, and does nothing for a marriage in itself.<p>2. Is why a virgin. If the reason is cause one values the psychological importance of sex and abstains unless one is properly connected to another, that validates the person doing so has their head screwed on right (psychologically speaking) cause promiscuous people are acting out dysfunction, or poor character.<p>But if the person is obsessively a virgin and does so for the purpose of "selling" themself, or out of fearfullness for relationships, or as a way to "bind" someone with this gift...that would be bad.<p>My point being again, it is not a gift, can never be a gift, cause has no value in inself, it's "value" is as an indicator of who you are.<p>Therefore it is possible a highly promiscuous individual who has recovered from this behaviour, and pledges fidelity may be giving a bigger gift, than a virgin who maintained their virginity as an obsession.

Okay, aside from the Bible...<p>I never have sex with my H thinking, "He's touching my breasts... there is an increase in endorphins, no wonder my headache is going away...oh yeah, here's the big one, I bet the adrenaline is causing his mind to race...Here I go...it feels good, it feels good, it feels good...wow, I love the way the chemicals flow to make me feel so good."<p>Rather, I am thinking, "He loves me. That's why he's touching me. I love him and so I'm touching him. Once I get into it, it's fun, and I like having fun with my H and pleasing him." You see, I do what I do to please my H, and he to please me. I cannot seperate my thoughts from the act. It's also a choice I make to do what pleases him. Choice, thoughts...they may have some roots in biology, but in essence they are spiritual or emotional. Thought breeds action, and to say that the sex act, in and of itself is unrelated, is wrong. It is as a result of thoughts and emotions. Besides, when we commit to someone else, we GIVE ourselves to them. Everything we do to ourselves, we do to them also. I doubt I will convince you, but at least the truth is here for you if you want it.<p>I credit the others as they have made excellent points.

If no one is interested in this thread then don't read it (or respond). This is GQII, it is a legitimate marital issue (and one many people get hung up on), although my original purpose was to respond to something specifically asked about ME....it kinda morphed into this other topic. If you cannot handle volatile stuff (in that it upsets you) why do you respond? I don't get it.<p>one day, your opinion is noted (and I don't flame, sorry), but I am confused over what you said, oh well.<p>h4f....My belief re the Bible? That it is the inspired Word of God.<p>david, I specifically mentioned std/pregnancies as concerns, but neither of those are the emotional issues referred too.<p>NB...I am not defending anything in particular, why do you think I am? My main point was to respond to a poster who wondered if I was performing biological experiments on people, that was getting just a little to bizarre for me, so I felt a need to explain the reference my w has been using.

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

h4f, re your last post, I don't think anything I wrote here is in opposition to that, sex is two things, emotions and physical biology, I am only talking about the last part, and that getting hung up over the physical part is nonsensical, whether your spouse has or has not had sex with someone other than you is irrelevant in a physical sense, they are still the same person, nothing has changed....the issue is only why did they, that is where the emotional issues come from, and what that means to you.

hanora...However for almost all human societies, and a lot of animals ones, sexual exclusivity is prized -<p>snl...Why? And what changes when the exclusivity is broken? I mean only physically changed, not trust issues, desireability issues etc. Why would we say to a spouse I no longer want you cause you had sex with another... what has changed in only physical terms that one can say that is the reason they don't want you any more?<p>If in fact the issue is I don't trust you, or I want to punish you, or whatever, why not say that (and be honest, as well as accurate) instead? <p>My point is a focus on the physical act is ignorant, it is meaningless, has no consequence....the real issues are all psychological and emotional....some of which are possessive and territorial, for well understood genetic reasons, but questionable re marital bonding in themselves. It is funny (strange) how people routinely (here) say we should not go with feelings, we should "decide" to love, and when I present a perfectly logical argument for why sex is irrelevant re restoration (in itself) I am refuted emotionally.

Oh snl,<p>You don't think anyone ACTUALLY THINKS that you were performing BILOGICAL EXPERIMENTS, do you? C'mon...<p>My point, as you know, is to tell you that you don't HAVE to defend yourself against your W's words... that's all. But I think you know that, somewhere in that philosophical mind of yours.<p>snl, you're not a bad guy. You bug people, yeah, but so what? I know you like to debate and argue and have fun with peoples heads... me too... and I'll tell ya... if I were in YOUR shoes right now I think I'd go bonkers and/or postal. <p>But before *I* go off topic, I'll shush.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

SNL, I agree and disagree with your last statement. I have recovered from my sexual abuse as a child. Even though I have forgiven him, it has affected me greatly in the kind of parent I am, and how I view the world in general. The physical has affected me in a deeply emotional and spiritual way. My husband's near EA affected me, but it would have been worse if it had progressed into an EA, and then into a PA. One: because of the emotional, Two: because who knows where she's been. My virginity was a gift to my H because he knows I won't be thinking of anyone else and comparing him, and I am pure in my body. He doesn't have to worry about the other guy I was with and the others he was with and the others they were with and the others...If you sleep with a promiscuous person, you could easily end up in bed with half the U.S.<p>I know you don't advocate promiscuity, by your posts. And I think you are agreeing that what you did was wrong. But, if you continue this line of thinking, you might mislead someone else to believe that any bag 'o bones is as good as any other. It's history that makes the difference with a bag 'o bones, and since we cannot know everyone's history, we must obey God's commands. Besides, He said that if we commit sexual immorality, then we sin against our spouses, God and our own bodies. If it's just a bag 'o bones, why would He say that? Read 1 Cor. 6:12-19. I will quote some of it for ease...<p>"Flee form sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you...You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." That says a lot about the value of the body, don't you agree?

h4f, the argument everyone is making is that physical is emotional/psychological too...I understand that, applies some to me too (but not much), my point (which drifted from my original intent re this thread) was that it is only so cause WE make it so, it is a decision, we do not have to attach significance to it...and should not, cause there is none (in a physical sense)...it is only a sympton of what is going on emotionally...re your suggestion that virginity is a gift, cause will not then compare to other men.... I can see that, but I don't think it makes any difference in human relations (in that no one really values it in a healthy way, only a possessive way).<p>If you had two identical marital prospects, one was a virgin, the other was promiscuous (but is no more).... somehow you were give the knowledge that the virgin would be comfortable, a good companion, but you would never be passionate about them, never connect that deep.... the other you would always know (if you needed to dwell on it) had been with others before you, many others, but was now your safe place, where you could be you, and the passion there....who would you marry, what would you value? Virginity is nice, but of minor importance, infidelity is awful, but the sexual part of minor importance....it is all about what is in the head and the heart.<p>h4f..."Flee form sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you...You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." That says a lot about the value of the body, don't you agree?<p>snl....I agree.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Ok im back.. ha! Sorry about taking your thread way off course here.<p>Why do we post or read it? I think its kind of like a car accident. Sometimes we cant help it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] One thing is 100% true you have every right to post it, but on the other extreme everone has the right to respond as they see fit and express their views. right? <p>Can I spin off another question on the topic of attaching emotion or setimentality to something vs what my impression of how you think? I could be way off base here, but it seems like you think too deeply sometimes. Thats not good, I think you can believe that right? <p>I dont know if some of us can detach emotion and the physical act like you can SnL.. maybe that is a failing, maybe its a plus, who knows if its normal or not, but I think perhaps the majority of people will think you cannot talk about one without the other. This will probably come out really stupid Im not as good at this as you, but let me ask it anyway.<p>But does it matter how YOU feel about it? In a reltionship.. well no in life, you should value other people's feelings I think. Maybe you are right and I need a little bit of maturing. I am quite young I admit, but Im not sure thats something I want to loose.<p>Let me ask your opinion of something,
Say your wife gives you something that means a LOT to her. it is a family momento or something passed down through time yadda yadda. She gives it to you. EVEN if it means diddly squat to you, isnt it right to respect what it means to her? Even if you divorce and you have no love for her, would you without a second thought break it or throw it away?<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: HangingIn ]</p>