HI...Why do we post or read it? I think its kind of like a car accident. Sometimes we cant help it One thing is 100% true you have every right to post it, but on the other extreme everone has the right to respond as they see fit and express their views. right? <p>snl...Absolutely. Although it bemuses me they (sometimes) do so (reply) just to tell me not to have an opinion (and post it) about something.<p>HI....Can I spin off another question on the topic of attaching emotion or setimentality to something vs what my impression of how you think?<p>snl...sure.<p>HI.. I could be way off base here, but it seems like you think too deeply sometimes. Thats not good, I think you can believe that right? <p>snl...No, I don't believe that, I think people don't think nearly enough (and is why we have the mess we do, including marriage mess). I do not think it is possible to think to deeply, but it is very hard work, so I can understand why many don't.<p>HI...I dont know if some of us can detach emotion and the physical act like you can SnL.. maybe that is a failing, maybe its a plus, who knows if its normal or not, but I think perhaps the majority of people will think you cannot talk about one without the other. <p>snl...I would agree, I know I am a lonely voice in the wildnerness. But my position did not just happen, I have the same kneejerk reaction of connecting the two everyone else does, it is a territorial reflex, we are born with it. I had to work at understanding why and to see it is not a rational thing to do, that is the first step in overcoming any reactive behaviour.<p>HI...This will probably come out really stupid Im not as good at this as you, but let me ask it anyway.<p>snl...There is no such thing as a stupid question, or effort...it is all communication and whether someone expresses better or not is not the issue, there are plenty of people more eloquent than me, but thanks for the compliment.<p>HI...But does it matter how YOU feel about it? In a reltionship.. well no in life, you should value other people's feelings I think. Maybe you are right and I need a little bit of maturing. I am quite young I admit, but Im not sure thats something I want to loose.<p>snl...Could you reask, I am not sure what the question actually is. If you are asking should we exercise cognitive oversight over our emotions...yes, we should. But likewise we should exercise emotional oversight over our rational choices....it is a balance, and a synergy, living life one way or another is more likely to result in poor outcomes. I have tended to be more rational, not sure it has worked to well, so now I am trying to be more emotional, unfortuneately it led to an affair, remains to be seen whether that has a net negative or positive outcome on my life, for the time being it is a disaster.<p>HI....Let me ask your opinion of something,
Say your wife gives you something that means a LOT to her. it is a family momento or something passed down through time yadda yadda. She gives it to you. EVEN if it means diddly squat to you, isnt it right to respect what it means to her? <p>snl...Yes. (but could be no under certain unlikely circumstances, in the final analysis, nothing material is worth anything).<p>HI....Even if you divorce and you have no love for her, would you without a second thought break it or throw it away? <p>snl...Me? Who saves everything of any sentimental value, even old clothes from high school?<p>Let me make something clear, I love thinker, I will always love thinker, and will do anything I reasonably can to support her... this is not about not loving...this is about not fitting, we do not make successful, intimate partners, and trying to do so is unhealthy for us both.

Ok, using your analogy I would like you to help me. I welcome your honesty. I will be quick, short to the point. I had an affair. I fell in love with this man, and then 7 days later, slept with him. That is what my husband deals with. Falling in love with another man, knowing it was wrong, wanting my marriage, is what I want. I love my husband and want to be with him. <p>My H just went to see his family for the weekend and he picked up a stranger from a party and went back to her house and slept with her. He had bought a condom at the bar, so he knew it was going to happen, but didn't know at that time who was going to be the lucky woman.<p>Now, he says, what he did was not as bad as what I did. He didn't have any connection other than sex. He said.... "IT WAS JUST SEX. I DID NOT LOVE HER". Just as I call it, he f****ed her.( I didn't say that to him). I think what he did, is sick. He didn't want anything else but that. There were no emotions, just do it and get out of there. Pure selfishness regarding the act.<p>Now me, I could never do that. The act itself is not "sex" to me. It is something that is shared with someone that you have an intimacy with. Can this level of initimacy be acheived in one hour? Or is it plain old.... "my hormones are raging... and you are going to be the lucky one tonight". <p>So, we are both pretty much disgusted in each other. And we both feel what each other has done is the "worst". So if sex is just sex, then is that what my husband thinks of me? He can share it with anyone. And using your analogy, how do the two us forgive and forget? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

I'll check in as the village idiot, and see if I have this right...<p>SNL thinks that there are no physical changes in a marriage relationship due to one of the partners having sex with someone outside the marriage - of course all of the STD issues are understood.<p>Now, if I have that part right, I would have to say that it is not completely true.<p>I might get a little graphic here, and some might consider this TMI - too much information. You are warned.<p>When [censored] had sex with, or recieved oral gratification from a hooker or a crack whore, he would come home to me and I would not notice anything different about being with him physically. No biological changes.<p>When [censored] had a full blown affair with Bimbette he and I both had some physical, therefore biological changes.<p>He was sometimes unable to achieve and maintain an erection. Now this may be a mental block, but it is pretty much a biological thing for a 27 yr old man in good health to get a hard on when his wife is preforming oral sex. He is one of those men that has to be careful the wind doesn't hit him because he gets aroused easily. Although I do understand there is some mental part to being able to a & m an erection, from what I understand about younger guys (and it isn't much), if a woman starts giving him a bj, he is going to get hard no matter what is on his mind. So this is a biological change.<p>Now, let's get intimate with me here. When [censored] had some sort of sex for hire there was no biological change in me. When he had his affair with Bimbette I cannot deny I had tons of mental stuff going on, but there were physical (biological) responses also.<p>Even while in recovery/no contact, all is good stage, I would physically respond to him differently. At times I could not become aroused enough for penetration to occur without assistance from Johnson & Johnson, although I truly wanted to have sex. Other times I was unable to achieve orgasm, even though I was to a point were before the affair I would have easily had a big o or two with the exact same stimulation. Now, I believe that is biological.<p>Could it be that as human persons we have evolved to a point where there are some things that we experience that cannot be specifically tagged as biological or emotional?<p>Could it be that the function of the human body intertwines the biological and emotional to a point we cannot understand? <p>Elizabeth

hmmm, this thread is going all over the place...<p>BM...I read your report on other threads and was appalled, your H choice was much worse than yours, I wouldn't try to forgive and forget, I would end the marriage (if I were you). I was not saying because it is just biology, you just forget it.... I was saying making the biology important in itself is nonesensical. Of course there are reasons, and that is what is important. I cannot concieve of a reason I would accept for your H action. Your affair was wrong, and you have to answer for it....but his was an incredible act of deliberate aggression, or breathtaking stupidity, either one a deal breaker for me. Sorry, if ya wanna get past it, someone else will have to advise you....good luck.

justawife, I was waiting for someone to make the point you did, not an easy answer. We obviously are integrated human beings, and emotions do affect our responses to many things, including sex. So yes, you may have pseudo physical changes...they are not real though, they are still psychological, and reflect emotional truths re yourself. And usually go away, often quite dramatically with a new mate who you fit with...and trust.<p>In the larger sense, I do not consider SF an emotional need, it is more, it is the primary emotional barometer of where we are in bonding. We can play head games all we want, and "decide" to love etc... but if we are not truly connected it will be reflected in our sex life (assuming one does not have other actual sexual dysfunctions, organic or psychological). IMO an unsatisfactory sex life is simply the physical manifestation of emotional divorce, you are not bonded, your are not connected, you are not oneflesh.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

going off on my tangent again. (I think the your thread is getting frazzled [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) <p>My story about the statue was an attempt at an analogy regading the gift of committing one's self to another in marriage and why you cant seperate emotion from it. Does it make any sense in the least.. oh well. Im an ADD fragmented thinker it made sense to me at the time. Im sure I wont understand what the heck Im writing tommorow.<p>Anyway.. I did not mean to bring you and your wife into this I think I understand both of your stances. Though I dont remember are you two in the process of a divorce yet?

sad'n'lonely<p>I am having a bit of a challenge with what you wrote and would like you to expand if you have the time. You are helping me see this from a different point of view.<p>I know what the difference between what I did and he did. But one week ago, I asked for his forgiveness..... and your opinion is that you would not forgive him.<p>Why not?

SNL~<p>The act itself is a catalyst. Sure, people fall in love, find others who fit, bump into their soul mate, etc. <p>I don't think what you understand is that it isn't the actual SEX act itself that people get so hung up on......but what that act signifies. When a man says "She had sex with an OM", I think it's deeper than just the sex, I think he is upset at what the sex represents. It's the same with cyber-sex. Those two people "slapping genitals" (sorry, Kalani, I snaked that from you) over the internet are technically taking part in nothing more than voyeurism and some tapping on a keyboard......but.....WHAT does that cybersex signify? A line. A boundary that has been crossed. Same with physical sex. A line and boundary has been crossed.<p>Biologically speaking, when my husband and I have sex....we are no different than the pair of Australian Frilled Lizards who are boinking. Nor are we any different that the gorillas or sea turtles. Sometimes I feel like a Praying Mantis and my hubby has to run away real quick [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] !!! Just kidding! Anyway, the act of reproduction is just that....the act of reproduction. If I were an Australian Frilled Lizard and my buddy-man nanced over to the next hot looking AFL-OW and gave her a go, I probably wouln't think a thing about it because his seed was inside of me and doing it's business right nicely. However, I'm not an Australian Frilled Lizard, nor a gorilla, nor a sea turtle. I have a higler level of thinking and understanding and I have sex with my husband for other reasons than reproduction. You can't take the emotional element out and expect others to look at it in the way you are looking at it, SNL, because the two are intertwined.<p>I don't think anyone would say boinking isn't biological. After all, we all have urges and desires....and many of those urges and desires lead to sex. No one is arguing this. But being of the higher species, we are supposed to be able to control our urges and desires and use reason and not try to reproduce with anyone other than our spouse.<p>Another way to look at this is a pride of lions. The male will defend his pride. If an interloper comes into the territory, there is a fight to the death. He is not giving up that nookie without a fight and he takes that nookie VERY SERIOUSLY! (nookie signifying MANY things in regards to humans, sex, relationship, etc) AT that time, his only concern is about his nookie-dom(humans= bonding/commitment...not ownership).....and he holds it so dearly that he will die for it. Now, whether he is programmed that way is neither here nor there......the act itself is important. Now, can you imagine how this lion would react if he were willing to fight and die for one of his women and she willingly gave herself to the interloper? His work and dedication would be for naught. Imagine IF biologically (or whatever) this lion had extra baggage; such as emotions and whatnot.<p>SNL~ a penis inserted into a vagina is a penis inserted into a vagina. No one is arguing that. You fail to see the signifigance behind the insertion. Whether you feel there is no signifigance is irrelevant....and I must say, it does seem strange that you are looking at the biological aspect of sex when you are the one who had sex with another. Imagine if you had been faithful and your wife sexed another man. I somehow don't think you would have the reaction that you are having regarding sex and biology. There is a reason/s why all of these years you didn't and all of a sudden you did. Why is that?<p>selket

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My main point was to respond to a poster who wondered if I was performing biological experiments on people, that was getting just a little to bizarre for me, so I felt a need to explain the reference my w has been using. <hr></blockquote><p>This helps, and I do realize that was your point of this. BUT, I also believe that you started it on a thread, with a subject line that certainly got some attention, as if you wanted opinions.<p>No, you won't end up in the horse-pital cuz of me. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I didn't elaborate cuz I was on my way to lunch, and I wasn't sure what to say. All I knew was I was a little confused by what you said, and that I have a totally different opinion of the "biology" thing. My first reaction was anger at your view of sex and intimacy, but I had no clue how to express it. I needed time to think, and hoped to read some more replies to better understand the situation. <p>I still need more time to think and respond. I've got to get some work done... but I defintely have some thoughts on this.<p>grrrrrrr [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] ... don't be skeeered... my bark is worse than my bite [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

I am results motivated BM, I would have no problem forgiving him, even loving him, I would just never trust him or his judgement again....marriage is a place of tremendous vulnerability, trust is the key component of in-love...not just action trust, emotional trust, psychological trust...your H has displayed such an incredible lack of capacity to understand that, that I could never trust him again, and have no interest in a marriage where I have to watch him. I am a decision maker (although while in my search phase it appears not), not a wishful thinker...I know I cannot read the future, but yet I must make decisions that reach far into the future, but based on actions in the present (or the past). A spouse who has a revenge affair (or whatever want to call it) has demonstrated they are unable to focus on the real problem, why their spouse wandered, further they cannot be trusted to even follow basic procedure during the reconcilliation effort, and lastly think so little of you they deliberately contribute to the continued failure of the marriage.....there is nothing there to work with, it is unsalvageable, they are one messed up person...the danger is in you feeling somehow responsible....you are not, you owe the BS nothing, nothing but a good faith effort....if they want to throw that away for whatever reason, ok, THEIR choice.<p>This isn't a walk in the park, this is real life with real consequences, and as bad as the first affair in a marriage is, one can deal with it given the complexities of human relations...but now that stuff is on the table, for there to be another affair in the marriage pretty much means the marriage is not a safe place for either party, and should end IMO. In your case I think you have found out a fundamental truth re your H, he didn't just get weak, and EA with some understanding woman, he aggressively got even with you, and threw it in your face, this about power BM, raw naked power. He is saying by gosh, you will pay bm, and I will decide when and how, cause I am the power in this marriage...in so many words. Lastly re ONS, I would be unlikely to reconcille over that, I would much prefer a EA/PA, that is normal, what people do (leads to marriage etc.), and maybe get misguided or lost....but I cannot comprehend ONS except as raw sex (promiscuity), and is a serious issue for me. Lest anyone think I am preaching, I had a ONS prior to marriage, I was trying to be promiscuous, be a "man" etc. etc. but I was still sorta looking to be friends, guess she was content with ons... anyways the whole thing disturbed me greatly, tried one more time, realized I wasn't cut out to use people, and returned to monogamy, and eventually married thinker. So I been there, is bad even single, but married, is a deal breaker. You try to excuse him as can one develop an ea in 1 hr under those circumstances...I think not, and your H said meant nothing to him, so maybe he should suffer the consequences of his admission. Does this help any?

HI, I am lost even further, regroup, gather your thoughts and ask again whatever you want, take your time.

My boys just got home from school... have to go and give them a hug... How can I contact you later? I will check this string in about one hour. Thanks, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

SNL--I may or may not "get" what you are saying. Is it like I hate the fact my H cooked for the OW, at least once using my crockpot, probably just as much as I hate the thought of the "did everything" sex?<p>Sex can happen without caring, but cooking for somebody is caring and takes planning...and the fact he cooked for her, not just did her, is an indication to me that he cared.

What an amusing thread. I am rather entertained.<p>I understand your point SNL, but I think it is totally moot. Sure, sure, sure, you go off and boink someone and come back the same old SNL.
But what if you get AIDS? Or what if you conceive a child(lotsa that going on in the prgnancy forum)? What if you do soemthing kinky and your schlong gets bent (actually possible, from what I understand).<p>Thses are all physical ramifications from a sex act.<p>But the point is, who cares how the hell the damage manifests itself. It is damage. And your
line of reasoning is it's just sex, get over it, then you are obviously not connecting with thinkerbabe.<p>For the record, what would bother me if my wife fokked someone else? All of the above. The fact that some @sswipe's semen dripped into her; the fact that she was there and wanted him, the little secrets shared only by the two of them, etc, etc.<p>Now that I think about it, her vagina did look a little stretched out yesterday! What the hell????<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: EazyE ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>...sex is two things, emotions and physical biology, I am only talking about the last part, and that getting hung up over the physical part is nonsensical, whether your spouse has or has not had sex with someone other than you is irrelevant in a physical sense, they are still the same person, nothing has changed....the issue is only why did they, that is where the emotional issues come from, and what that means to you.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
SNL,<p>How can you say they are the same person. <p>Everything has changed. Sure the issue is why did they? But the issue is also physical. Emotionally, a woman (WS) may have the emotions after recovery and desire to have sex with their husband (BS). But physically she maybe not want to anymore because of how inferior her husbands body (parts here) make her feel. Emotionally she can be there for him but physically he doesn't add up.<p>For instance a WW now comes home to her BH and when they make love, she now wants her nipples pinched. The husband has to respond to that physically to provide that for her. She DID come home damaged goods. She IS different. Emotionally she liked the change that the OM gave her through the Physical contact. She came home Physically and Emotionally changed. Therefore she doesn't come home because, the BH CAN'T satify her physically for her emotions to respond.<p>Of course, I can get more graphic and we can talk and compare what's in our pants also. Desire is emotional I know. Stimulus is physical. Stimulus in Lab animals becomes learned behavior to satisfy the emotions. Once the lab rat has heroine, that is what they want. Once a WW has big...long...and good, THAT is what they want.<p>They are not the same. Not to be ugly...SNL but how can you say that when your not the one in Thinkers position.<p>Let me breathe for a few and come back to this.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong> what the heck difference does it make what has been done to you sexually...our bodies are just transport vehicles for our brains, that is who you are, your thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams, that is who you love don't you? Those who only love someones body, I feel kinda sorry for actually.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Ok, SNL, I am trying to understand you here so let me see if I grasp what you are saying. You are saying that sex in and of itself IS a physical act, but you are not divorcing it from it's natural attachment to emotions and morals? Would you agree that sex is a MORAL issue and that, in it's normal use, is a RESULT OF deeper emotions? And that is what differentiates the human version from the animalistic version of 2 jackrabbits in heat? [altho we would agree that some humans do view it in that manner]<p>Do I understand your meaning? And if I do understand your meaning, then why do you need to define it in such a confusing manner that gives the impression that you are divorcing the act from the moral and emotional ramifications?

Husband2You -
when they make love, she now wants her nipples pinched.
Replace the she with he, and you have my dear [censored]. Except it wasn't an OM, it was his favorite hooker. <p>I need some of my very own acronyms.<p>FH - favorite hooker
BCW - best crack whore
SC - swingers club, otherwise known as 2nd home<p>Feeling bitter today,
Elizabeth

h2y, substitute a sex self-help book for your point about changes....does it still bother you, is it still a physical change? Probably not, so we are back to the emotional side of this, no argument, I AGREE, many say no snl (here) and go on to make the emotional argument, and or std/pregnancy all that was excluded. Look it, none of this is particularly helpful, except to point out the nonsense of damaged goods ideas...and someone who actually does care about the physical reality (as opposed to the emotional side that it represents) has big issues. Mostly this is just a moot exercise of academic interest, and no practical interest, and only arises out of my wife endless harrangues about my physical conditon as tainted....so I said it is only biology for crying out loud, get a grip, and I am done listening to the *****ing, you wore out your welcome, find something else to harrangue me about, I am not your personal punching bag. Now I KNOW it probably is not the physical that is troubling her, but that is how she chooses to complain, so that is what I respond to (when I respond, mostly I keep my mouth shut, but lately she has been doing this in earshot of the kids and I am about to toss her through a wall, which I do not want to do), so instead I am moving to another house for the time being, maybe that will help reduce the hostilities.

melody, I think my response to h2y answers you pretty much. I do think physical action is a barometer (and manifestation) for emotional/psychological stuff, so is important, but not in and of itself, otherwise those who are unable to have sexual activity could not be in-love, bonded, etc..

yikes easy, could have spared me the graphics lesson.<p>easy... What an amusing thread. I am rather entertained.I understand your point SNL, but I think it is totally moot. <p>snl...was supposed to be light discourse, amused is good too I guess. Pretty much moot, it was about clarifying my use of biology originally.<p>easy...Sure, sure, sure, you go off and boink someone and come back the same old SNL.
But what if you get AIDS? Or what if you conceive a child(lotsa that going on in the prgnancy forum)? What if you do soemthing kinky and your schlong gets bent (actually possible, from what I understand).<p>snl...covered already (and excluded, either you got std/pregnant or not, case closed)...now the bent business, hmmm, never heard that, but if so, then by all means is a legitimate issue to dump the bent spouse...but only if he is bent, not cause you are bent (well not for physical reasons at least, dumping for emotional is ok).<p>easy...But the point is, who cares how the hell the damage manifests itself. It is damage. And your line of reasoning is it's just sex, get over it, then you are obviously not connecting with thinkerbabe.<p>snl...that isn't my point re the affair, only the complaint about being damaged goods.