bumping this for attention and will post a new topic now.........

anyone have any comments or thoughts?

Fallingdown~<p>From being the exact same type of person G is, I would like to voice my thoughts to some of your comments. I am not taking up for Genevieve nor making excuses for her. I know very much what she is going through....I've been there. I too, woke up and smelled the poo as the threat of my husband leaving was looming over my head. And....Genevieve, I want you to TRULY think about what I am about to say and not grasp it as your own UNLESS you really and truly do feel this way. IOW's, I don't want to put thoughts in your head or words in your mouth. If you disagree with me, tell me.<p>FD, you posted this.......<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you feel the way you suggest you do then why did it take you this long to motivate your change in behaviour? Could it be only that now your husband is leaving and that otherwise you would still be the same compulsive liar you were first posting here? ......If your change of heart now is not a direct result of your own self awareness than it is false.<hr></blockquote><p>
Okay, I agree partly with this. What does it matter how Genevieve came to this realization? Maybe she was standing by a golf course and a golf ball zinged off of her head and she had a realization? Maybe she stumped her toe and she had a realization? Maybe she had an attack of explosive gas and had a realization? Isn't what her husband did a very speedy and immediate Plan B? He was withdrawing himself from her (or planned to) and she would have the reality of him no longer being around. Plan B. Well, apparently it didn't have to go in full force for G to imagine what her life would be like without her husband. Just the threat of it was enough. I felt the same way when my husband communicated to me that he had had "enough of this" and he "wasn't taking it any more" and he "didn't know or even think he wanted to be with me anymore". It didn't take him actually leaving for me to realize ALOT of things.<p>Why did it take her this long to motivate her behavior? Well, I'm not G, but I would venture to guess that she felt that she could continue to live her own little fantasy. There was no OBVIOUS direct threat to her. Sure, we all know there was, and so did Harley.....but that isn't saying that SHE actually knew it. From what I gather, her compulsivity has been a way of life for her and why should she expect this time to be any different? She created a situation and felt like she was going to ride it out till things were calm....well, that DIDN'T happen this time....things couldn't be smoothed over or gotten over or forgotten about. Harley's "threat" (and I've no doubt he was sincere) was a genesis for a whole new and different book in her life. This was NOT going the way she had planned or had been accustomed to getting away with things in the past. <p>Her change of heart is the first step.....again, what difference does it make why she had the change of heart? The fact is that she did have it......(whether under <false> pretenses).....she has to start somewhere. Yes??? (I'm not saying she should stay under false pretenses, if in fact, that is what they were) It doesn't mean that every move she makes from here on out is false. A little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing....and Genevieve has to start somewhere. Why not here?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Could it be only that now your husband is leaving and that otherwise you would still be the same compulsive liar you were first posting here? <hr></blockquote><p>It very well could be. An alcoholic doesn't wake up the average day of hum-drum and decide to stop drinking out of the blue. There has to be a CRISIS situation to smack 'em head on. Had Harley not threatened her with leaving, she may go on with her life exactly the same as she has carried on since she was very young. Again, what difference does it make how the realization was precipitated? What matters is that NOW, at this point in time, Genevieve IS AWARE what is really at stake. She has (maybe for the first time) been slapped in the face with the consequences of her actions. She is in a CRISIS situation. Crisis situations can motivate people to move mountains. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You should be changing yourself for you and because you don't want the life you have been leading anymore and not for your husband or to paint a picture. Sincerity and honesty should mean everything to you now.<hr></blockquote><p>This I agree with 100%. But, again, she has to start somewhere. If she doens't know who she has been all of her life and has lived selfishly, then how can she get in touch with herself? Maybe coming to these realizations and making these changes BECAUSE she has finally REALIZED that she does cherish a future with her husband is just the sort of mentality she needs to adopt. Maybe she needs to start doing things for others and realizing the beauty in that. HOWEVER, this type of motivation is to only be used for a very short time (such as realization of a crisis.....kinda like using this as a catalyst for better more honest things to come) But, she should also desire to change above all. I see nothing wrong with using both (desire for self-change personally and relationshipwise) as motivation.<p>selket<p>[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

I'd just like to add this to Selket's thoughts, which I agree with completely.<p>If Gen has indeed hit bottom, it will be obvious to Harley. See, when my W PJ first faced dday, she was much like Gen. She didn't continue contact, but she was keeping the secret of two other A's. She said she was sorry, joined MB's started counselling, but still something was wrong. All her defense mechanisms were still in place. She was still quick to anger, she blamed others for her problems, and she would still lie about some things. <p>When, with the help and guidence of some friends here on MB, she broke down and confessed all, it was as if a page had been turned. Most of the serious negative behaviors, and attitudes just melted away, and have never returned.<p>Gen is probably very fragile right now. She's given up her old way, but has nothing to replace it with. <p>Gen, if you're reading this, some professional help at this time is critical. Not only do you need help in starting to live a good life, but your willingness to do all you can will be a crucial first step in making ammends to your husband.<p>Good luck Genevieve. You really remind me of how my wife used to be. You know, I think us "tough cases" often make the most dramatic turn-arounds. I was a tough case too - I was addicted to drugs for many years. It takes some serious work to dig out of the bottoms we put ourselves in - but that is what we do. Our recoveries are strong because we've faced our demons at the deepest level.<p>David

selket, dont worry about putting words in my mouth or my thoughts bcos i am not like that. I dont like having words put into my mouth by someone else and least of all from someone i dont know....i will disagree with you if there is anything you have said that i dont agree with....i just have to tell you that you have such a way with words that i dont seem to have, you express it better than i am able to.....<p>Did you read my earlier threads in answer to FD? It explained some of how i felt about the questions that were being asked and i answered them as honestly as i could. You were right about me coming to a realization bcos the H was threatening to leave me...just the thought of being without him was enough for me to get hit on the head. My rock bottom was then, knowing how alone i was going to be, how horrible life was going to be like, i could see nothing ahead...nothing at all. that scared me, it scared me and made me think why that was happening and it was all bcos i was being a selfish bi***, i was being irresponsible, i was living the way i wanted to...with no thoughts of H's needs.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>But, again, she has to start somewhere. If she doens't know who she has been all of her life and has lived selfishly, then how can she get in touch with herself? Maybe coming to these realizations and making these changes BECAUSE she has finally REALIZED that she does cherish a future with her husband is just the sort of mentality she needs to adopt. Maybe she needs to start doing things for others and realizing the beauty in that. HOWEVER, this type of motivation is to only be used for a very short time (such as realization of a crisis.....kinda like using this as a catalyst for better more honest things to come) But, she should also desire to change above all. I see nothing wrong with using both (desire for self-change personally and relationshipwise) as motivation.<p>Exactly how i feel....my H leaving was the motivating force for my want to change, to change my way of life, to change my ways, to change who i used to be, to change ME...to rid myself of all the bad personality traits and flaws. I cannot do it on my own which is why i uderstand the need for professional help as well and like i said before, just knnowing that my H is still here is another driving force for me. He can leave in the next 10minutes, he can leave later today...so i am not hanging onto him bcos i dont want him to leave, i am hanging on bcos i want this to work and i want him to see that i can do this and that i can still be his woman.<p>Davidb wrote:
Gen is probably very fragile right now. She's given up her old way, but has nothing to replace it with. <p>Gen, if you're reading this, some professional help at this time is critical. Not only do you need help in starting to live a good life, but your willingness to do all you can will be a crucial first step in making ammends to your husband.<p>You mentioned me being fragile now....i see my H being the fragile one right now...having given up my old ways is one thing...what do i replace it with? I have not considered that at all until you brought it up and i did not think that there should be anything to replace that....except the motivation to make things right for H.<p>My willingness is there Davidb. I am fighting this battle alone, i am fighting this with very little artillery bcos i never had to take up arms and fight for what i wanted, i always just got it with ease. Now i am fighting and it is hard to do it alone. I see my counsellor once a week so in between that i am within myself and on this site seeking help and advice. I want to live a good life bcos we only have one life...and i dont want to be selfish anymore bcos time's running out each day that pain is being caused. I was wondering if PJ would have time to email me at all? I would love to chat with her via email as well....well, if she does and if you read this, my email address is genevieve_monteiro@hotmail.com...thanks.

G let me say that I do not attack you in my posts I am just trying hard to be a voice of reality. When I was in the fog nothing seemed real except the A and that hurt my wife tremendously.<p>A few questions maybe you can answer; <p>Do you catch yourself now thinking of your other self? Do you ever ask if it would be easier to be your old self?<p>Are you now giving your husband all of what is needed? Have you sat down with him and applied the principals of radical honesty and do you feel like you are being honest always? <p>Do you have any fear that you may slip if given the chance?<p>I hope things are working out for you and I understand that you are trying. I hope you can understand us when we have an eyebrow raised.

FD, i do not mean to sound off at you and i know that you didnt mean to attack me, although attack is a harsh word. I dont think you did that. You were real and you had very very good points made and questions asked. I have been in a fog and i can feel that fog fading away slowly. Sorry if i came on strong and defensive. Also, sorry if i sound oblivous, but are you a BS?<p>FD asked:
Do you catch yourself now thinking of your other self? Do you ever ask if it would be easier to be your old self?<p>Yes....all the time....esp when i look at my H or in the mirror...i have been me for all my life and the other self is still there fighting to survive bcos it knows that i am slowly getting rid of it. It has always been easier to be my old self bcos thats whom i have been all my life, my comfort zone...being someone new and better has never occurred to me bcos i never thought being that way was bad to start with...perhaps no one told me or i just didnt wanna listen to what anyone had to say. i always had to prove that i could do anything - anything i want and that i got what i wanted no matter who i hurt in the process. I cannot be that way again bcos i am also hurting myself. So when i old self wants to creep back, i have to push it away...its only been a few days and it is hard. I am struggling but there can be no easy way to do this....god only knows that its hard being me.<p>Are you now giving your husband all of what is needed? Have you sat down with him and applied the principals of radical honesty and do you feel like you are being honest always? <p>No, i dont think so bcos already tonight he realised that when i was calling OM this last time, that i did it as soon as i got back to the office after our short vacation. i failed to mention that and i am ashamed to say that i didnt know that that was one of the things i should be volunteering. his other needs? well, sexually we are still kinda active which i am surprised myself and where his other emotional needs are concerned, i am sure that there are lotsa other things that i have not been doing.....thats where i am here to seek help with bcos i am always lost and alone when it comes to WHAT I HAVE TO DO TO SHOW him that i am evolving into a better person and that i can do this....if not for him, for myself. i lost it a little earlier bcos i felt alone and did not understand what i needed to say or do for him to show him.....like volunteering information....any help there?
Like i mentioned before, its only been a few days so i have not sat down with him yet and gone over the principles of radical honesty....i know, i better get off my [censored] and do it...NOW.<p>Post me, i am looking forward to hearing from you! Glad that you are there to be open and real with me....you and everyone else here have been more real to me than most of my friends have been all my life.

Hi, Gen,<p>(note: I am posting under the absence of nicotine! WHAAAAAAAA! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My rock bottom was then, knowing how alone i was going to be, how horrible life was going to be like, i could see nothing ahead...nothing at all. <hr></blockquote><p>Gen, that's a good start. BUT, you have to do this because of your love for Harley. Not just because you don't want to be alone.....but because you love Harley and you want HIM in your life. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Remember when I mentioned goals? Okay, things are going bad now (but I do see a hint of sunlight), there will be good days and there will be great days and there will be some really sh*tty days. Setting goals for yourself will help you on those sh*tty days. Every marriage has ups and downs......set goals and help prepare yourself for those future downs. Be strong and have conviction because those down days are going to be the days that you will want to slide back in your old ways.<p>For example...lets say you set a goal for not reacting impulsively or compulsively and to think about Harley before you act out on something. Say things start to seemingly go downhill right before your eyes. So, by your conviction to not act out, you stop and think. You think...NOT... of how to best remedy the situation just for YOU, but you also trying to put yourself in several different scenarios with Harley's best interests right up there with yours. Even if it takes you a long time to come to a conclusion, you will have strength in knowing that you didn't rashly act out, but you thought the situation through from many angles.....chose what you felt was best for you, Harley, and the situation, and responded with everyone's best interest at heart. It's a good feeling....and it takes practice.<p>Gen, you have got to put a foot forward and start somewhere. You are in limbo.....not wanting your former life and ways....but not knowing how to get a better life and better ways. This can be so overwhelming. That is why setting goals is so important...actually, it's crucial. Promise yourself that when you set a goal, you are going to stick to it.<p>Be strong, you have it in you to do this. Proving to Harley your desire and willingness is awesome and proving it to yourself is something that can't be taken away....ever!<p>sel

selket wrote:
Gen, you have got to put a foot forward and start somewhere. You are in limbo.....not wanting your former life and ways....but not knowing how to get a better life and better ways. This can be so overwhelming. That is why setting goals is so important...actually, it's crucial. Promise yourself that when you set a goal, you are going to stick to it.<p>Selket, i feel like i am starting somewhere but i feel so alone....limbo is such a lonely place. i know that i do not want the former life bcos now whenever i think about it, i see and feel the pain that i have caused everyone around me including famliy. My selfishness has hurt so many people in my family and i did nothing to stop it. No, i agree with you....i dont know how to get a better life but i do know how to have better ways....i will set goals and i am not asking for a manual but being so new to this and new to change, i do need help and guidance. Keep me posted or email me your thoughts. it is overwhelming me!<p>Tonight started out fine until H realised that i started making calls to OM right after we got back from our weekend vacation early this month, as soon as i got back to the office. He insisted that i should have volunteered that information to him and i didnt.....to be honest, it didnt cross my mind tell him that bcos he had already gone through the recordings of the conversations and such. I am sorry it sounds so stupid but i truly didnt mention it to him, not bcos i was keeping it from him, i didnt think of it. He obviously doesnt buy that, i dont expect him to....<p>We started LBing when we got home bcos we sat down and i started talking to him about how i met OM, what we used to do, what happened the first time he came over, what happened the second night he came over and how often we used to meet and what we used to eat and where. I let him vent and voice out what he needed and there was anger and sadness all at once. I could just sit there and hang my head down in shame. I didnt know what to say...there was really nothing to say. <p>i am so confused and need help when it comes to "SHOWING" him that i can be trusted and that i am willing to change or am changing. I need help bcos tomorrow i am supposed to be at the office again and there is no way that i dont go. Datelines have been crossed and projects need to be handed in...i can go in later, which i am planning to so that i can have the morning with H to discuss the situation. I will not post here saying that i will not call OM or make any contact with him bcos i did that before and i screwed up. I know in my heart what i will do about that. NO one will believe me or do i expect them to. But my dilemma now is if i lose my job, it will be over for me here bcos i will have no money to leave and go home with H....i will hand in my resignation as soon as i obtain this loan that i have been waiting for, to get us out of here and for me to relocate, so if i dont work, its not going to work anyway....what should i do selket?<p>Email me if you must.....i hear you want a Beetle? Cool!

Gen,<p>May I suggest one thing. I get the impression that you think rather quickly, and you answer questions rather quickly. Now this advice is going sound like it is coming from some other planet. My advice is: SLOOOOW DOWN.<p>It is much easier to solve or answer a question if one is willing to lie. It is the fastest and seemingly the easiest way to answer a question or solve a problem. That is the problem. My advice, before answering someone, or offering a solution to a problem, tell yourself to SLOOOW DOWN and think. Think carefully, ask yourself what is the honest answer, what is the honest approach to a solution. Then think somemore before acting or answering.<p>Lying is many things but frequently is is a shortcut. So people use the shortcut, rather than slowing down and thinking about the situation and being honest. Honesty is better that lying for many reasons but one of the most compelling is that it is the most effective method of behavior over the long run.<p>So if you want to be really successful at: marriage, jobs, life, whatever, consider that honesty will generally get you there with less overall effort and many good side effects.<p>For example, you will feel the urge to call OM, it will bother you not to, but stop and consider what your goals are. If they are to have OM in your life, then make the call and be honest with your H. You will get to be with OM. If it is to have a life with your H, then be honest with yourself and realize there is one way and it requires honesty.<p>I do hope that this gives you somethings to consider. Sloow down and consider the ENTIRE situation not just the short term and you will find honesty much more effective.<p>God Bless<p>JL

Hi, Gen~<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i dont know how to get a better life but i do know how to have better ways<hr></blockquote><p>Hon, this is as good a way to start as any. <p>You can't read his mind.....but you have to make sure he KNOWS that he can ask you anything and you will tell him. When he asks you questions, if you struggle to answer, because being honest will/may be difficult for you........he will see that struggle and he will see that you are struggling to be honest. JustLearning gave you excellent advice. Slow down! You have lived your life with quick answers (lies), yes? Well, maybe now instead of the lies rolling off of your tongue, slow down and really think about what is being asked.....make sure that you are giving an honest answer.<p>Gen, I know shame all too well. Trust me on this. Eating crow ain't pleasant and this point.....right here is what you use as your motivation. You KNOW you never want to do this again as well as put Harley through this again. If being at this low point isn't motivation, I don't know what is.........so, evaluate where you are at this point.....set goals to work through these times.....and follow those goals (with conviction). Slowly but surely you will move forward.<p>Do you know of the country singers The Judds? Well, they have a song titled "Rock Bottom" and the lyrics go a lil' sumthin lahk dis....<p>"When you hit rock bottom you've got two ways to go,
straight up, or sideways"<p>You SHOW Harley by asking him what he needs and doing your darndest to meet his needs. He doesn't trust your love for him (rightly so), so you have to show him you are willing to put him first for a change. Showing him is by considering him. Sometimes you just have to put your neck on the line (figuratively speaking) and take a leap of faith. It doesn't sound like you trust many people....Gen, trust Harley. Trust him with your love.<p>Honey, guilt is a good thing if used to make yourself into a better person. Don't get soooo mired down in the guilt that you get stuck there. <p>I have faith in you, Genevieve.<p>much love and friendship,<p>sel

I have been following your posts but have been away from the computer because my son had an accident yesterday. He is fine now but it was scary.<p>Geneveive I read your husbands post on you returning to work. Can you handle that right now? Do you think about what you can do for him while your there? I wonder if your returning is a good thing for your H and I am almost positive it is driving him nuts.<p>For now I think you should take vacation time if it is possible because your workplace has facilitated the A in the past. In fact every time you have been alone or without H you have messed up in one way or another. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She hasn't spent one minute apart from me being honest or caring about my feelings and I know she likely isn't now. <hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She is back at the grind, back in the work life that she herself admitted was a place where she felt she could do anything and it wouldn't matter. <hr></blockquote><p>These quotes are from a recent post by your H. I am not sure you have yet grasped the reality of what he is going through but it is about time you did. He has been publicly humiliated and privately tortured just from deciding that you were worthy of his love. Remind yourself of this every time you are at work.<p>My suggestion is that as long as you have to be away from him you should contact him often. If you say anything to him you have to mean it. For example if you go to lunch tell him exactly where and the exact time you will return. If you are late it will really hurt him because how you honor your promises to him means everything to your R at this point. I remember coming home late from a football game one night to find my W in the basement shaking and crying. I couldn't understand at first but the upon reflecting I knew that I had let her down when she was trusting me to honor my word to her. <p>Geneveive I can see that you have been trying to be honest but you also have to help him by making decisions that will protect his feelings. His pain can not be confounded by careless actions by you. Knw that every second you are not with him he is being driven mad with fear and worry. You have to do everything very carefully now and you must be one step ahead of him in his own recovery. That is a heavy responsibility but you did agree to accept it.<p>Godspeed G I hope things are working out for you.

FD wrote:
I read your husbands post on you returning to work. Can you handle that right now? Do you think about what you can do for him while your there? I wonder if your returning is a good thing for your H and I am almost positive it is driving him nuts.
For now I think you should take vacation time if it is possible because your workplace has facilitated the A in the past. In fact every time you have been alone or without H you have messed up in one way or another. <p>You asked if i can handle it right now.....i know i can, i believe i can and i honestly do. I have been doing well even though it has been only 2 days away at the office. I have been thinking about what i can do for him while i am away from him and i believe that i have been doing so....although another part of me says that i can do more....I understand and know that the workplace has facilitated the A in the past and that whenever i am alone i mess up....i have not been thinking of messing up or hurting my H in any way....i know also that i have said that before but to be honest i am thinking more about my H now when i go to the office than i did before. I know i can do this FD.<p>I have already take time off last week, which were the only days i had left to claim. The work that i have been given has me in a position where they are depending on me to finish the work and the dateline was last Friday. Essentially i am in charge of consolidating all media plans for the territories that my company runs and we need that before the end of this week. i did request for time off but it was not approved....however the manager did say that i could take half a day off. Now, i have to tell you that the only way that could have happened was lying to the manager that i had to look after my sick granma in the hospital and that i had to take turns with my uncle looking after her. I know that was a lie and i felt bad doing that. But she agreed to work half a day so as of today, i go in at 9 and leave and lunctime at 1pm. <p>i did return to work yesterday and i did read my H's post regarding that. It was not easy for me at all. I did not wake early bcos i was in a dilemma on whether i should just NOT show up for work and call in sick. But that would be running away from the problem at hand and besides, they would still be expecting me at work the next day. i was very reluctant to leave and i was very down bcos i could see how hard my H was taking it....we talked a little and i could not say anything to him or do anything for him at that moment bcos the reality of it was that i had to leave for work. So what i did was send him text messages as often as i could from the time i left the house, in the subway, on my way walking to the office, when i got into the office, when i had to go in for a meeting with the manager, when i got back to the desk after the meeting and as often as i could during work. I even called a couple of times.<p>Today was the same and i left early while he was asleep which is the hardest thing to do bcos i can only imagine what its like to wake up without me there and knowing that i am away from him. I had a lot of work to do and redo bcos the manager reviewed my work and made amendment over amendment...i was all ready to leave at 1pm and even texted my H that i was leaving at 1pm. I had my bag with me and was almost shutting my puter off when she came in with a file and asked me to send off emails to everyone (around 8) before i left. I asked if i could email them from home but she said that it would be better if i did them at work bcos she needed the documents in the office in case she had to look at them. I called H and told him i was going to be late bcos of the emails i had to send and he was upset. I know, i should not have said i was going to leave at 1 when i didnt. But i truly was going to leave when i said i was but then i had all this work to do before leaving.....i do feel horrible for it. <p>He has been publicly humiliated and privately tortured just from deciding that you were worthy of his love. Remind yourself of this every time you are at work.<p>I do. I have been thinking more of my H now than ever before. I am thinking about whathe's doing at home, what he is having for lunch, whether he is doing alright or freaking out....i have been sending him as many text messages as i can and i will continue to do so.<p>My suggestion is that as long as you have to be away from him you should contact him often. If you say anything to him you have to mean it. For example if you go to lunch tell him exactly where and the exact time you will return. If you are late it will really hurt him because how you honor your promises to him means everything to your R at this point.<p>That is exactly what i have been doing and there is no worries about lunch bcos i come home and have lunch with him, like i did today. I know from today's incident that it hurt him terribly that i was late. So i realise the extent of that now and i will ensure that it does not happen again....<p>Selket and JL, sorry for not replying to your earlier posts. I hear your advice and i will let that absorb into me. thank you for your support and i will be here again later.....