As my H goes on acting like it's life as usual in his seemingly blissful denial state, like he thinks he got that "Get Out of Jail Free" card that PlainJane spoke of a while back, I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable not disclosing how totally not with him I am. It feels deceptive to me and reminds me of how I went along thinking we were a married couple while he had constructed his own reality of being a single man with another woman.<p>Of course I'm not doing anything like he did, but I am well aware that I am not committed to this R, and it appears that he has no clue despite what I have told him since D-day.<p>And his insensitivity about adultery-related things that come up in everyday life and his general it's-been-successfully-swept-under-the-rug attitude are offending me, and my anger and outrage are approaching critical mass. I'm revisiting some of the things he said to me and about me in his attempts to justify his and OW's behavior and wishing I could go back and do and say things differently. I feel like I didn't take proper care of myself during those episodes, like I let myself down.<p>I also think the impending 6-month anniversary of D-day and the end of a 6-month Plan A coming up are making me more mindful of it all and helping me to feel like I should DO something.<p>I think I can control the anger okay because I've done so for so long. But I seem to have a need to let him know the status of the R from my POV so that I won't ever have to feel guilty of doing anything to him like he did to me.<p>Anyone been here? Should I bother opening up? Any suggestions on how I should handle it?

C,<p>During the first year,I found that the only way I kept my sanity was to bring my feelings up every once and while and discuss it with my WS. Sometimes I would let them build up to a critical mass and unfortunately, they came blowing out. I found that I had to talk about it over and over again in order to get over it. And I learned to NOT let it go so long that I no longer had control over my emotions.<p>I think that talking about it occasionally faciliated our recovery. The nine month mark was a critical point for me for some reason. Once I got past that last point, I got to a place where I rarely thought about it anymore and rarely felt anger. One of the primary feelings I had was feeling like a "chump" for staying with him and that has all but disappeared. <p>It takes a while, but I would suggest talking to him and letting him know how you feel so he can help undo the damage he has done.

Wow, I thought I was the only one. I am also at the 6 mo. since D-day point, and I am feeling the exact same way. My husband got up from bed last night, like he used to do while having the A, and that totally flipped me out this morning. I asked once again if there was something going on because he went out of our bedroom. I can't be sure where we are because he said the A was over and we need to get past it. He can't understand my dwelling on the issue. I just can't foget that I trusted him and that I didn't catch on soon enough. I got a letter in the mail, probably from the OW. She has a history of breaking up marriages. Likes to win the guy from the wife. Anyway, I almost LBed, but it is not worth it. Hang in ther. I belive it will get better from what I have read here. I can only have hope...anyone know...will our WH ever get it? Heart broken from NJ.

dear conqueror- i dont know all your story but this is my opinion. as you know i did this exact thing this week on vacation, you also know the answer i got. i think the way i came to the decision is this- its sort of like something dr. phil said. i decided to lay it all out for him, all of my feelings and emotions and his shortcommings were also brought up. i had to know that he fully understood the way i felt and what he wasnt doing. as you know he tried to claim stupidity-i enlightened him. i now have the knowledge that he understands where im at in my feelings. so i feel that if he continues doing nothing and thinking all is well(hiding the elephant) then i know he is making a concious choice to do so. the decisions seem easier then.<p>i took my little one to the movies to see ice age- i havent seen anything else in a long time-afraid of udultry issues in the movies-would you believe ther is a statement about not liking the whole mating for life thing in this movie. unbelievable!<p>new jersey-im from here too-wanna share were your at? im up north in warren county-cow country. im originally out of essex and have also lived down the shore.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your perspectives. I guess I feel like I did lay it all out back in January and several times before that. In fact, since I had done so much research about marital recovery after adultery, by the time D-day came around, I was able to lay out everything I learned from the professional experts as well as the "real" experts--those living a successful recovery.<p>I emphatically told him that if there was any hope of recovery it was to follow in their footsteps because I sure couldn't trust him or find any hope in him and the only hope I had was in learning from those who had already been down this path. I told him point by point, step by step what had to be done, beginning with coming clean with EVERYTHING--that anything less would cause more damage and likely make recovery impossible.<p>I tried to anticipate every single thing experienced people had told me about and impress upon him how crucial it was to learn from others' mistakes and not repeat them in order to have the best chance of recovering from this.<p>Then as D-day after D-day came along I reiterated everything I originally said PLUS added my now all too personal experience of the exact same things everyone had warned me about and how much he was risking the R until finally I told him in January that we do it right or not at all.<p>But since January he has made some behavioral changes as far as treating me with respect and being more affectionate, so he is working on the pre-A stuff, just not addressing the A issues, so for some reason I feel obligated to keep hanging in in case he ever gets it, but I just know that all the other stuff will not make up for the lack of dealing with the A.<p>He's even listened to the Relationship Rescue tapes, which gave me some hope that he'd be more enlightened if he heard some of what I've been saying from someone else. But so far, he hasn't mentioned that he listened to them or what he thought about them or anything. I only know he listened to them because I monitored the box and saw when each tape was taken.<p>I just dread touching the elephant because his responses and reactions have been so lame and discouraging. Maybe instead of addressing it head-on, I should just start being more natural and open about the A-related things that come up in everyday life. I tend to bite my tongue a lot because I don't want to deal with his reactions, but that's probably being cowardly on my part.<p>Oh well, thanks for helping me process my thoughts about this. I get so tired of having this being such a consuming part of my life. If I was on my own, I'd be able to let go of it better, but having to live with the one who caused it makes it easier for me to expect HIM to do something about it, at least to help me with it somehow, which seems to be an unrealistic expectation so far. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Oh, forgot to tell about this--kind of sad. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Isn't awful how pervasive all the A stuff is in our culture? Our kids do not know about the A, just that we "broke up" for a few days. While we were driving today, they started telling us about an episode of "Lizzie McGuire" that they had watched.<p>This show is about junior high-age kids and the characters were teamed up by their teacher into "married couples" for some specific project about life choices, etc. Lizzie's friend got teamed up with the boy she had a crush on, and Lizzie sees her friend's "husband" sharing a milkshake with another girl all cozy and tells her friend about it.<p>Initially the friend refuses to believe Lizzie and accuses her of being jealous because SHE didn't get him as HER "husband", but eventually she is convinced, and then she falls apart, and my kids were laughing and making fun of how the character cried and mimicked how she lamented, "How could he DO this to me!?!", each of them mimicking this several times because apparently they found the way her mouth was shaped when she did it to be so funny.<p>Needless to say, being stuck in a moving vehicle unable to avoid this and trying to remain nonreactive was difficult. Inside, I'm just so sad that my kids have no idea how much that scenario parallels my life, but I know my H does.<p>So, not only the reminder of how it feels to discover your spouse is cheating on you, but also once again his total lack of acknowledgement and response are among today's burdens to bear. Is it really that hard to later on in private say something to me about it like, "That must have been difficult for you to listen to what the kids were telling you and not let them know it was hurting you. I'm really sorry I've done this to your life." ????? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

ditto-i'm starting to believe if my husband did ever say something like that the shock would probably give me a heart attack.

Conqueror,<p>Absolutely let him know. Radical honesty makes it imparative. <p>I'd go slowly though, not all at one time. And no love busters. What you want is not only for him to know but for him to work with you on this.<p>Have you read any of the divorce busting books?

Conqueror,
I had the worst slump at around 6 mos. I saw a lot of others that did also.
From looking at your post I think we are alike in a lot of ways. You said you read all the books and did everything right when finding out....Me too.
My H says I have a PHD in infedelity.
I think for me the 6 month mark was so difficult because in the beginning I had a problem to deal with and FIX. I made a plan and set out to FIX it (him). At 6 mos we were back to how we were preA - great right? WRONG thats when he had an affair!!
I was back to a working relationship and we were happy? again but now I started really worrying would this happen to me again? I couldnt live through this again. I couldnt afford to invest more of myself on a chance that he might be faithful when I knew in reality he hadnt been. I would be driving down the road and be feeling comfortable thinking "my H loves me he would never..." Then like a slapp I would say "DUH he did"
At the same time i would try to tell him how much i was hurting. I wanted him to realize what he had done. His response was to be stunned - "you mean you are still thinking about that? You will never get over this will you!" He acted like I was the wrong do-er.
I wanted crying wailing gnashing of teeth appologies. He wanted to forget and forgive.
I now realize he will NEVER know how bad he hurt me. How could he? Could I understand the feelings of a mother who lost her child?really understand? NO
I quit reading the books and making him do relationship "homework". I stopped feeling sorry for myself and taking it personal when he didnt want to "work" on the relationship.
I started to realize that I had some things to "fix" also. I stopped thinking "if I could just FIX him, my life would be happy"
I had some things to work on. I felt superior to him. I felt he was weak to stray and that I would have NEVER done such a dispicable thing.
I also realized that although I had forgiven him I had now put him on probation. I was still manic about spying and looking at cell phone bills, reverse number lookups,watching him come out of work.
I heard a sermon on the radio that touched me by Chuck Swindoll. He talked about the prodigles son and made a statement that caught me off guard. He said "If you relate to the younger (good) son you will have a hard time with forgiveness" he went on to say how probation would wear on a mans soul and set him up for failure.
I have also been working on a sense of myself seperated from my H and two children. In spite of the trmendous guilt I feel, sometimes I put my children in daycare and go to lunch alone and read a book!!!
I have also been working on my pride issue - the feeling like a chump for staying. sigh
I am working on laughing more,yes its something I have forgotten to do.
Funny thing, when I started working on FIXING my own problems, I noticed my H changing for the better also.
I guess my point is: I tried to FIX him (because I had the plan) when really I needed to focus on my weaknesses.
I started saying - I dont have to worry if he will hurt me again, I have to trust myself to be able to handle it if he does.
I now feel that should he cheat again, it would truely hurt him more. Its hard to explain why I feel this way. I think his eyes have been opened that temptation is everywhere and he is not so special when someone hits on him, even ugly guys get hit on. So if he should slip he is letting himself down.
It is now after a year that my H recognizes a bad day for me. Last week I had a bitter angry day. Feeling that the OW is teflon.My whole world has changed: my job, my family, everyday life. For her nothing has changed, same job same smile same stupid non believing husband of her's. Its not fair. Anyway H text mailed me and said "I am sorry I hurt you, I will never betray you again"
It felt so good, he would not say these words to me in person, and still has days where he says I am obsessed with IT, I will never get over IT....
But after a year I think he see's a percentage of the damage he did.
My advice to you Conqueror is to let him know how it hurts you, that you think about it hundreds of times a day, that it makes you feel ugly and unwanted. Tell him you think he is thinking of others when you have sex, and the pictures that go through your head. Tell him all of it. Then rest your mind when he says "I cant believe your still thinking about that! its over! get over it! that MB site has you addicted...."
Make sure when you tell him you dont say the word "YOU" Say only "I Feel".
Then come here or in your journal and find out what FEELINGS you are having. Are you scared, lonely,angry,ashamed, feeling used....
Then resign yourself to work on your feelings of weakness.
The more you write it down the clearer it becomes.
Oh, ya when you said it would be easier to work on this alone, ya it would have been easier for me to leave than to work through this. It wouldnt have been the right thing to do but a lot easier.<p>You are not alone

Yep, Zorweb, both Divorce Busting and The Divorce Remedy. Went to LRT back in December with my only OR talk about a month later when I tried to go to Plan B, but he refused to move out and promised to work on recovery, and one last time about a week after that when I tried to follow up on a couple of the lame things he said the week before.<p>So, no OR talks for almost two months now. That last lame-a$$ conversation back in January just made the mountain of that garbage so high that my aversion to it became greater than any need to resolve the A issues or the M itself even.<p>Since my #1 LB is Dishonesty, and my #1 EN is a tie between Honesty and Openness and Admiration (because I think it takes both of them to equal RESPECT) and this having been made plain to him for 11 years now, I find this Barbarino stuff coming out of a middle-aged intelligent man just too insulting and disgusting.<p>As I've been thinking about this the last couple days, I realize there is absolutely nothing I can do about the internal stuff. Whether he gains insight and understanding is totally up to him. The only reason empathy is a problem is because he refuses to go there. Again, nothing I can do to make him face himself.<p>Your going slowly suggestion is probably the way to go and probably starting with the outer, action-type things. Back to my Solution Journal and constructing goals and putting them into action words, huh?<p>I also think I need to get better at self-disclosure in the sense of not avoiding the A-stuff that comes up in everyday life and my feelings and opinions about it as long as it's about me and no DJs. It's almost like around him I pretend I am not who I am in the sense of my status as a victim of adultery.<p>If I was traumatized by rape, I'd probably be more transparent around my H because he'd probably be nurturing and comforting, outraged on my behalf, all that. But since the trauma is caused by him, fulfilling that role means he has to face himself, the perpetrator, which he so far has not been willing to do except with lip service acknowledgement only when pushed.<p>What I'm starting to think about is that my trauma is still valid and there is no reason why I shouldn't own that and deal with it openly as I would any other trauma and not let his lack of nurturance and comfort relieve him of facing my status as his victim.<p>Even though his reactionary attacks further traumatize me, if I can comfort and nurture myself instead of expecting him to do it and refrain from being baited by him, then I will no longer be protecting him from what has happened to me and who did it. In protecting me, I've been protecting him.<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Beware the White Elephant. It's unnerving how many WS's don't seem to notice them. To underscore what's been said here; while attempting recovery I too would experience wonderful days with my H. I would say to myself, "things are looking up -- he really does care about what he's done and he won't hurt me again". Soon followed by a DUH moment -- I'd realize how often I'd had those good, calm episodes during our old marriage, knowing that he had continually proclaimed his undying love and devotion. However, it not mean he wouldn't continue his pursuit of casual sex with strangers. <p>Sadprincess is right on the money about the "change him" attitude. There is nothing at all that will change who a person is unless they recognize that in themselves and are willing to make those changes, unprovoked by anyone else. While I am sitting around waiting for him to realize that he loves me too much to hurt me, I am doing serious damage to myself and not respecting his autonomy. The real work comes in looking deep into yourself, finding your own shortcomings and dealing with them, independent of the other person. Focusing only on THEM shortchanges you in the end. And if your anger is getting to the critical mass point too often (mine was there DAILY for 18 months [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) then you might be focusing on the wrong person. <p>That said, I do believe that the WS should, if the desire to truly rebuild is there, acknowlege the elephant. For them to simply say that it's past and over and done with and let's move on is a cop out. Though you can't live in the past, it is YOUR past and is a part of who you are and what you believe in the present. It is the foundation of your NOW. No one would ever tell a person who had been raped while walking alone through an alley at midnight (to use an extreme example) that they are living in the past by avoiding dark alleys at night. Instead, they might offer companionship on those dark roads, a shoulder to cry on when the memory comes flooding back and a reassurance that should a menacing stranger reappear, they will be there beside you to protect you and make sure it doesn't happen again. <p>Snow<p>PS: So sorry about the episode in the car with the kids. But there is an example of your strength and conviction -- you were able to keep driving and keep it together for the whole ride. Not an easy thing to do.<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sadprincess:
<strong>
My H says I have a PHD in infedelity.</strong> <hr></blockquote><p>LOL!!! Sure feels like that, doesn't it?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> I now realize he will NEVER know how bad he hurt me. How could he? </strong> <hr></blockquote><p>My H doesn't get this free pass. He was the BS in his two previous Ms. He truly is capable of FEELING my pain.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> I had some things to work on. I felt superior to him. I felt he was weak to stray and that I would have NEVER done such a dispicable thing. </strong> <hr></blockquote><p>Yep. Still feel this, ESPECIALLY since I felt so unloved throughout the M and was ripe for an A from about 2 months after the wedding until the present. I recognized my vulnerability and actively worked to protect the M against it, so I know it can be done, and I feel it's the least he should have done, too, especially when he promised he'd never have an A, that he'd just let me know if he wanted to be with someone else. We both promised this since we'd both been a BS before and knew how agonizing and unnecessary it was.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> I was still manic about spying and looking at cell phone bills, reverse number lookups,watching him come out of work. </strong> <hr></blockquote><p>I've let go of most of this, but do take notice of the obvious things (like when I noticed he was listening to the Dr. Phil tapes). Told him from D-day that I was through proving he was having an A, that it was now up to him to prove that he's not.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> I heard a sermon on the radio that touched me by Chuck Swindoll. He talked about the prodigles son and made a statement that caught me off guard. He said "If you relate to the younger (good) son you will have a hard time with forgiveness" he went on to say how probation would wear on a mans soul and set him up for failure.</strong> <hr></blockquote><p>I see the point here, but I've tended to identify more with the Prodigal. In fact, the Bible characters I identify most with are the woman who washed Jesus feet with her tears and dried them with her hair and the publican who went prostrate before the altar, saying "O Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner", while the Pharisee was thanking God that he (the Pharisee) was so righteous.<p>I feel great remorse when I hurt someone, empathize, and verbalize all that when asking for forgiveness, so that's probably what makes me expect that from those who hurt me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> I have also been working on my pride issue - the feeling like a chump for staying. sigh </strong> <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, that's a biggie.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> I started saying - I dont have to worry if he will hurt me again, I have to trust myself to be able to handle it if he does. </strong> <hr></blockquote><p>I think this is a really key part of it. So far, I'm giving myself permission to not go through what I went through before (going crazy looking for proof of his infidelity so I could feel released from the M) and make that line of release at the point of suspect behavior, proof no longer necessary.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong> My advice to you Conqueror is to let him know how it hurts you, that you think about it hundreds of times a day, that it makes you feel ugly and unwanted. Tell him you think he is thinking of others when you have sex, and the pictures that go through your head. Tell him all of it. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think I've done all that sufficiently I guess, but his continued denial behavior makes it appear that he's wishfully thinking I've "gotten over it", and I wonder if I should give him a heads-up that nothing's changed, and certain aspects of it will not change without his participation.<p>I spend so much time handling this myself, reading books to help me, journaling, and reading and writing on this board, to keep myself intact and trying to recover that the rest of my life suffers. Our financial state is worsening because I'm not working enough (only get paid for what I get done) to make enough to keep us afloat. The house is a disaster. I tell myself every day that I need to do my job and do the housework before I deal with this, but it just seems to engulf me.<p>I feel like we either need to work through it together or I have to find some way to table it and keep it under control as long as he's in lalaland, so I can get the rest of my life under control.<p>Thanks for sharing your experience, sadprincess. The perspective from others farther down the road really helps since we're all stuck on this road whether we like it or not. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I'll take all the help with navigation I can get--working on that Ph.D., you know. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

...re: Beware the White Elephant. It's unnerving how many WS's don't seem to notice them. <p>Ironic isn't it. Even in recovery it seems that many WS stay in a very self centered place. <p>I was lucky in the STL realized that he had to win me back. That I was 'out the door' right after day. But that does not seem to be the norm around here.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Snowwhite:
<strong>For them to simply say that it's past and over and done with and let's move on is a cop out. Though you can't live in the past, it is YOUR past and is a part of who you are and what you believe in the present. It is the foundation of your NOW. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>My response to him about this was that he may consider it part if HIS past, but it is very much in my PRESENT and FUTURE, ESPECIALLY when I don't KNOW exactly what my past was (thanks to his misinformation and unwillingness to come clean about everything). I can't escape the fact that my future has been permanently altered by him against my will and against basic human decency.<p>Everything you said, Snow, seems right to me. I guess every once in a while I need to re-evaluate where I am and what I'm doing, and I think coming up on the 6-month mark when my original plan was for a 6-month Plan A is making me feel like I should do something because I thought I'd be going to Plan B by now or he'd be walking the walk by now, but neither one seems imminent right now.<p>Also, he's pushing to sell the house and move, which to me is a BIG future-oriented thing that I don't feel enough commitment for. If I'm going to end up single again, I'd rather stay where I am than add the stress of all that to my life. In fact, even if we remain married, I don't want to deal with that stress until THIS stress is under better control. So, I dread him bringing it up because eventually I'll probably have to re-explain my lack of enthusiasm for the idea.

I think that if there isn't real, meaningful communication going on on BOTH sides, then nothing has been learned from the whole affair experience. It was withheld communications that contributed to this big mess to begin with, right?<p>No one is a mind reader, including your H...if you're upset about something and not speaking out about it, then no one is more to blame than you for your continued suffering. If you want him to do something, then tell him...waiting for people to meet our needs because they "should just know" that your unhappy, upset, etc...is REALLY dangerous to a relationship.<p>Your H's "sweeping it under the rug" is bulls**t, right? So call him on it...

dear TTF-im gonna give it a shot at answering you, cause i have that elephants cousin at my house. it even went on vacation with us! it gets around.<p>what we are saying is that we have told them, they are aware of how we feel, they are simply chosing to do whats easier for themselves. i think in mines case he doesnt want to deal with the pain of realizing and admitting he is not the man everyone thinks he is. if i was to tell anyone they would never believe me- they would think i lost a nut. well the problem with that is i have to deal with excruciating pain 24/7, thanks to his choices. i dont have a choice to pretend it didnt happen. im not wired that way.<p>plus we can not demand our husbands change. we cannot force them to behave the way we would like, we can only come here and pray that they see the light someday. i could talk till im blue in the face, if he doesnt want to help himself or this relationship then i cant change that. dealing with emotionally closed off spouses is frustrating- almost everytime we bring up anything that has to do with emotions its a huge LB. can you name me a conversation that will help my recovery without it being emotional?? its not easy.<p>conqueror, if i stepped on your toes here, im sorry.<p>anyway, my elephant stayed in the room all weekend too. i did notice husband was a little more attentive than usual. he's trying. we'll see where this goes...

Conqueror<p>In my opinion, you should be up front with your H about how you feel about him and your relationship. As a WS, I am very appreciative of my H being able to do this with me. No, it isn't always pleasant. Sometimes it is down right painful. But it opens the lines of communications and give me a clue (presuming I am really listening at the time) to what it is that he needs to help our M. I say "presuming I am really listening" because sometimes he does have to go back and repeat himself but I think I have eventually "gotten" what he has been saying. <p>It isn't easy for either one of us. It hurts when he tells me that he is emotionally distancing himself from me in order to protect himself. But I can understand that. We have been able to have some really good conversations that have started with him telling me how he feels about this or that.<p>And sometimes we as WSs are just clueless. There have been things that my H has pointed out to me that I was being insensitive about that I didn't realize I was doing, let alone being insensitive about. Sometimes we just don't stop and think about what we are saying or doing. For example, this weekend we were playing pool and I began to run the table. My H commented on this and without thinking about it said, "I was just lulling you into a false sense of security." Now I meant about pool but as soon as it was out realized how it could be taken in regards to our M. I appologized and explained. We talked and were able to laugh about it a little. But you see what I mean about not thinking about what comes out of our mouths sometimes.<p>But I am rambling now. Although I don't know you or your H or much about your story, I do think you should be up front and honest with him about how you feel about him and your marriage. <p>Regretting

I think TTF and Regretting have a point about the present and the future, and nikko is correct about the past.<p>As nikko points out, I've laid it all out to him several times in very specific action words all the things I need from him externally. (I also need to see external evidence of the necessary internal processing going on, but I cannot help him with that--either that happens or it doesn't.) Specific things he could be doing, but isn't.<p>I really want the WS perspective on this, so let me give just one example: Multiple times from September to January, I told him in graphic detail how the objects associated with that place (the birthplace of the A, where he and OW worked together) make me feel and that I want them out of my life forever. He has several clothing and other items with this place's logo on them.<p>After my attempted Plan B in January, which was the last time I pointed out that he still had these items that rubbed my face in the A every day, I did notice SOME of them in the trash. But since then, at least one of the shirts still keeps coming through the laundry. When I was hanging it up yet AGAIN last night, I puzzled over what to do about it.<p>His excuse back in January was that there are so many logo items around the house and he's been so used to seeing them for the past couple of years that he fails to notice them and get rid of them. I told him at that time that I considered it HIS responsibility to eradicate the house of them as a gesture of consideration for my feelings.<p>So, last night, I'm wondering is he STILL somehow not noticing this shirt?! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] He absolutely HATES that I have kept pictures and other items from my first M that I am saving for my children from that M (all safely packed in a box out of sight BTW), and that is a MARRIAGE, a legitimate relationship that happened before I met my H.<p>If that reminder of my ex-H bothers him so much, then how can he not grasp the effect on me of those items related to his AFFAIR, an ILlegitimate relationship carried on concurrently with his MARRIAGE to me and directly in betrayal of me?<p>So, that's what I'm thinking as I'm looking at this shirt last night. I considered taking it to him and telling him exactly what I was thinking about it and how offended I was and everything that laundering that shirt reminds me of--like him having no conscience about me unwittingly laundering his OW-soiled clothes during his A. But I didn't do it because I've already covered this ground so extensively.<p>Based on my exhaustive efforts to lay this stuff out to him in the past, it seems like a waste of time to point it out YET AGAIN. I'm hoping TTF and Regretting that you can give me a window on this. Is it just a matter of telling him again and again and again? If you've told the person 10 times, is it that you have to tell them 100 times? Should I just forget all the times I've told him before and tell him about that shirt like it's the first time I'm telling him?<p>I can see from what you both told me that when NEW things come up, I should address them openly, but what about this OLD stuff that I've addressed clearly and openly dozens of times? Using my example, what should I do about that shirt the next time he wears it or it shows up in the laundry?<p>We were both the BS in our previous marriages, and if our current situation was reversed, I would KNOW how anything associated with an OM or the time I spent with him would make my H feel. My H KNOWS how it feels to be a BS, so I'm always left with the logical conclusion that he simply doesn't care how I feel.<p>For me, it just adds to my pain to share it with someone who has no concern for it or comfort to offer. But maybe it's a pain I need to go through. I kept doing that in spite of the pain up through January because I thought that's what I was supposed to do, and then finally I thought I figured out that the purpose of it must have been to kill my love for him because that's exactly what his repeated uncaring responses to my disclosure accomplished and why I was ready to Plan B.<p>Right now, life is bearable and manageable, and if he continues to treat me decently otherwise, I think I could handle remaining in this M until the children are older and maybe better able to handle a divorce, but I'm afraid if I keep opening up to him and getting the same uncaring responses it will make me so disgusted with him that I'll want out and jeopardize my children's chance at avoiding a D. I at least like him sometimes now.<p>I think I could have a decent M if he continues treating me with respect and affection, but it will always be in the back of my mind that it is temporary. I think the only chance that I will feel committed and "in love" again will be if he deals with the A appropriately.<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

dear conqueror- im in a bit of a cranky mood, so here goes. if my husband used the excuse you got from your, too much stuff with logo's, i would throw out the shirt myself-he'll never miss it anyway, right?? and if he does miss it- then you have an answer. i know for me, the day i found out about ws affair i threw out my sheets(he slept in them the nite before, after being with her at his x-mas party.) the pj's he wore and my comforter. i also got rid of the clothes he had on that nite before. i think he was so scared he didnt say a word. i didnt do this in a rage-i was calm and deliberate. i also made him get rid of his car. he really must have been scared!! hopefully you are smiling-all is true and i know it makes me laugh now.(i wont tell him though!)

Nikko,<p>That's probably what I should have done from the start, but part of the reason I placed the responsibility on him for taking care of those things is because this also falls into a pre-A pattern for him that I am trying to detach from. I call it convenient incompetence.<p>Despite the fact that I work a full-time job and have sole responsibility for child care, meals, household chores, bill-paying, shopping, errands, etc., he is in the habit of assigning me EXTRA chores that he should and could easily do himself.<p>Everyday examples:<p>Has me shop for his clothes and shoes, with me sometimes having to take them back for exchanging 2-3 times because the fit isn't exactly right and he doesn't want to go to the store to try things on. Other errands and wild goose chases he sends me on also fall into this category.<p>Has me make calls on things he wants to look into or to set up appointments for him.<p>When actually getting something himself instead of having me fetch it for him, yelling at me that he can't find it until I show up and move one little thing out of the way, and voila! there it is exactly where I told him it was! Evidently doesn't occur to him to look BEHIND things.<p>In 11 years, he has never put on a new roll of toilet paper or refilled an ice tray on the rare occasions when he gets his own drink.<p>Examples of A-related things:<p>Me: (in yet another discussion about utilizing the cell phone for worktime accountability) Like I told you before, you could take the cell phone with you and call me during the day and especially if you have a change of plans to let me know what's going on, and I'd also be able to call you.<p>H: I've wanted to take it with me every day, but I haven't been able to because I couldn't get it unplugged from the charger. I told you I can't do that.<p>Reality:
1. The above statement was made after at least 3 demonstrations by me of how to free the phone from the charger.<p>2. The charger could have been unplugged from the other end at the wall socket and the entire assembly taken with him in his vehicle.<p>3. Subsequent to his statement above, I personally made sure to unplug the cell phone from the charger every morning, yet it still sat there untaken for several more weeks.<p>Me: Why is OW's code name and phone number still in your cell phone directory?<p>H: I don't know how to take it out.<p>Reality:
1. He managed to figure out how to get it in without my help.<p>2. The manual that came with the cell phone is available.<p>Thought you might get some amusement out of these. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] They're not good for much else.