H&A,
I know it must seem terribly unfair what you are going through right now and it is. Here he is the one who had the A and you are expected to coddle him while he goes through the withdrawl symptoms that he brought on himself. Who is to take care you? Right now YOU have to take care of you. Hopefully he is in a different mindframe this time around with his therapist and that will make a big difference. Take it one step at a time here and do some special things for youself too because you desrve it!!

Dear Hurtand Afraid,
I am praying for strength for you. What a hellish rollercoaster ride. Especially with kids involved. I hope your H can fight off the depression. I think it would be good if he moves back in ASAP. Even though it's hard with him in that mood, it will hopefully lessen the temptation to call OW. Any chance of planning, or taking a vacation together? It could be good to get out of town, away from OW and get a change of scenery.
Good luck, I am praying for you!

Thank you WantItBack and Espoir. The rest of last night was pretty tough. He started to have an anxiety attack and was pacing the floor and acting really hyper. He finally reached out to me and I just sat with him hugging him as he cried. He said he felt like he wasn't going to make it and I told him he could and I would be there to help him. After about an hour of just sitting there hugging (no talking) and finally seemed calmer. Things went okay the rest of the night. He told me he loved me. This morning he called and told me he was going in to work late today (after his therapy appt). He said he slept a little better last night. Don't know if it was because of his anti-depressant (the doctor told him it would help him sleep). I asked him how he was doing today and he said not too bad, but it comes and goes. He did seem a bit more relaxed today. Of course, I keep getting these thoughts in my head that maybe he is feeling better because he called her or something. I know I have to stop that, though. Were your withdrawal symptoms like my H's? Am I doing the right thing to help him get through them? I have come this far and I don't want to screw it up now. I have not done any LBing and am still trying to be happy and upbeat. I am getting that nervous stomach feeling again, though, like I had when all this started. Not eating much again because of it. I have an eating disorder and have been battling that through all of this (and have been doing much better). It basically all started with this whole mess. I guess I subconsciously thought that if I was thinner, I would be more attractive to him than the OW (although I know that had nothing to do with it). I have lost 50 pounds since October and although I look great now, I know it is not healthy. <p>But, as I said before, I am in this for the long haul, no matter what it takes. If he goes back to "her", I'm going to keep doing what I have been doing and hope for the best. I figure if he has been thinking all through this separation that he wants to be home, that isn't going to change, no matter how hard it is for him to deal with his feelings for the OW (and even if he goes back to her). I realize it may take some more time. Hopefully it won't, but I know I don't have control over that. <p>I'll keep you posted on how things go.<p>Donna

H&A,
Is OW married? If she is does her H know of the A?
And if she is has she also left her H? <p>Withdrawl is very painful. I think you have to look for signs from your H as to what he needs. Sometimes I wanted to be comforted and sometimes I just wanted to be alone. It sounds as if you are already doing a good job there. Is there anything that the 2 of you can do together that you know he enjoys to try and take his mind off of it for a while? Or maybe do something as a family?<p>If he does start up with OW again I can almost guarentee that it won't last. It will give him the quick fix he needs but he will realize it is a mistake all over again and regret it almost immediately. Sometimes this needs to happen enough times for it to really sink in. I know it did with me. After a while I began to realize that wasn't the answer.<p>Do you have anyone looking after you? I know my H had a wonderful support system while he was going through this. My whole family looked after him and supported him throughout the whole ordeal. YOU need someone to give you hugs and a shoulder to lean on. This is much too difficult to get through on your own. <p>Someday your H is going to be unbelievably greatful to you for what you are doing now. He better be!

Yes the OW is married. As far as I know, she hasn't left her H. She also has a 14 year old daughter. I do not know if her H has any idea, although I wonder how she can take so much time away from he and her daughter without them noticing or suspecting something.<p>I think my H is also feeling extreme guilt over what he has done to her too. She has not been back to work since he told her it was over. I am also hoping this means she feels it is final and even if he wanted to go back, she would refuse at this point. I mean, after he has done this to her this many times (he broke up with her several times before he moved out), wouldn't she get the idea that this really isn't going to work because even though he has feelings for her, he must want his family enough that I would think a R between them would never work. <p>I actually have some really good support from some people on another web site too called www.divorcebusting.com. That is what has actually gotten me through this far. We keep each others moods up. I also have family and friends. <p>What you said about him possibly going back, but it will only give him a quick fix makes me feel a little better. I can tell by his actions that he seems happy and relaxed to be at home and by me not asking any questions, but just being there, it seems to take all pressure off of him which is what I want. He said he was sorry for getting so upset last night, but I told him he didn't have to apologize, I understand. I think he can't believe I am so supportive of him while he is having such withdrawal symptoms from the OW. But, you know, that is my job as a wife and a friend. To be there when he needs me, no matter what the reason. No I won't be a doormat, but I am his friend (forever).

Well, we're back to square one. He met with his therapist today who told him not to move back yet or make any decisions about working on our marriage since he is still all over the place with his moods. He said to wait until the anti-depressants have stablized him and that way he can make a better decision as to what he wants. The OW has taken a leave of absence from work and I know my H is feeling really guilty about her. I started to cry in front of him but I saw it upset him so I quickly got control of myself and told him that I was okay. I told him I want to save our marriage, but I know we can't do it until he is better. I am crushed though. Here I am again believing what he said about wanting to work on things and getting hurt once again. How long will this go on? I know he doesn't want to do this to me on purpose, but it still REALLY hurts. I asked him if he was planning on seeing the OW again and he said how can I (because she is not at work-but she has a cell phone). He said his intention is to get his head on straight, figure out who he is and make a decision from there about what he wants.<p>How am I going to get through this? Will we get through this with our marriage still intact? Sorry to sound so depressing, but I am sitting here having trouble typing because I am crying so much. It is torture having him tell me he loves me, he missed me, he'll never hurt me again, etc. and then backing off yet again. Why do I keep believing him? I guess because I want to hear those words SO much that I grab on to any hope he gives me. Everyone kept telling me not to jump in so fast, but I had sworn he was telling me the truth this time.<p>[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: hurtandafraid ]</p>

<p>[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: hurtandafraid ]</p>

H&A,<p>How are you doing today? <p>What did your H think about the therapists advice?
I myself don't see anything wrong with him being at home while he gets his head together. Especially since you are being so supportive of him.<p>Your edited message above has me worried about you. Please post to say how you're holding up.

Hi WantItBack - I guess I'm doing okay. Very down today though. I talked to my H before he left last night to see where things stood and he said we are back to where we were before this week. Not working on our marriage and him staying in his apartment. He thinks that because of what the therapist said about him only wanting to be home because he gets scared and home is a comfort zone, that doesn't mean he loves me. I told him that it should mean something that he feels a comfort level at home and that is a good starting place and the love thing can be developed through rebuilding our M. At this point he doesn't agree. He said he needs to take more time to get himself together and figure out what he really wants (and not just make an emotional decision). He thinks that when he is gone, he wants to be home, but once he's here (as he was this week) he gets depressed. I told him that isn't caused by being home, it is caused by the symptoms of withdrawal. He didn't respond. I finally told him that I am a real person with very real feelings and I don't want him coming to me saying he wants to work on our marriage until he is absolutely sure. He said he won't. It just seems so unfair to me that I spent the last couple nights comforting him through his anxiety attacks from withdrawal, yet who is comforting me when I have anxiety attacks from his indecisiveness. I know I have become stronger because I have had to deal with this all on my own, but boy how I would love to have a little attention from him. He is so addicted to this woman. I checked his cell phone records from the past month and there were nights he would call her 4 times (and they saw each other at work all day too). That doesn't look like love to me, but purely an addiction. Here he complained about me smothering him, yet he seems like he wants to spend every waking moment with this person. I am hoping so much he doesn't contact her again and truly just works on himself. I am not a big fan of this therapist and was concerned when he said he was going to see him, although I know he has to remain neutral and help my H work through his decision on his own without trying to influence him one way or another. I told my H that I love him very much, I want to save our M, but I know we can't do that until he gets better. I told him I will be patient and be there for him if he needs me but just to take care of himself. I know that someday, if he comes around and we can work on our marriage again and he is healthy, I can get some comfort from him at that time. I did try to also explain to him that one thing he needs to keep in mind is that if he should decide to choose not to work on our marriage at some point, it will mean that his comfort zone at home will not be available for him whenever he likes or gets scared. He really needs to keep in mind how this up and down stuff is now affecting our children. They thought all week he was coming home and they were so happy. Now we are back to where we were and I can deal with it (I've done it many times before), but can they. I am afraid that he will push them away by all of this back and forth stuff. But, I know that I can't control what he does and I just have to try and go with the flow and help the kids. They don't know about the OW. Unfortunately, I had my D to her doctor on Wednesday for her checkup for her anti-depressant. The doctor told her to wait in the waiting room so he could talk to me. He asked the status of things at home and I told him. He asked if my H was abusive and I said absolutely not and that it involved another person. He asked if she had been exposed to the other person and I said she hadn't. Well, when we went to leave the office, there was my D standing outside the door!!!!!! I am praying SO much that she didn't hear what we were talking about because I don't want her to know. She hasn't said anything about it. The doctor raised her dose because she is still very withdrawn. I love my H very much, but I just can't believe how many lives he has affected by all of this. My life, our children, the OW, our extended families and our friends. Everyone is affected by this. He said last night he should just go away somewhere by himself because he has messed up so many peoples lives. I told him that will not solve anything and he has to think of his kids. <p>That is where things stand right now. I am very depressed but hanging in there. I'm sure I'll be better in a few days. I'll keep in touch. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

H&A,
I'm so sorry at the turn of events but don't give up hope. <p>I think your H's comfort zone needs to be taken away from him. I know it's hard because you get to spend time with him too while he's there but he's just not getting a dose of what he is truly giving up.<p>I am not suggesting this, merely asking. Have you ever thought about speaking to the OW or her H. I know from some of the posts here that sometimes it helps and sometimes it hurts. I guess it depends on the individual situation. It has been said though that once the A is brought out of the closet it loses a lot of its appeal. If, for instance, the OW's H does not know of the A then she is feeling no reprecussions from what she is doing. If she had to deal with her H knowing about it she may not be having such a good time.<p>Anyway, only you know what is best for you right now. Take care of yourself and your kids. And may the god of sanity give your H a good swift kick in the butt!!!

Hi,<p>I have actually sent the OW an email. It was a couple days after Christmas and I was devastated because I told my H I just wanted him to love me again and he asked how I intended on doing that, by being better than the OW? Well, as you can imagine that was like putting a knife into me, very painful. I got mad and sent her an email saying she should stay away from him and let him work on his marriage. Of course, she ran to him and showed him and told him her daughter and husband had seen it (I actually think she said that for affect - because it was her work email that I sent it to). He wasn't upset when I told him why I did it and said he should never had said that (Duh!). Then, when I found out the two of them were together one night when he told me he was with someone else, I called her cell phone and left a message asking if she had any idea what she was doing to his family. That, of course, pissed her off. I really have no way of contacting her H because she has an unlisted phone number. The only way I got the cell phone number was from my H's call history on his phone and he never called her house.<p>I think I am planning on taking away the comfort zone. I had been giving this some thought and that was basically what I was trying to do last weekend. I did mention it nicely last night that if he chose not to work on our marriage, he would not be able to have that. What I am hoping is that he will, indeed, not contact the OW and truly use this (as he said he was going to before) as a time to work on himself and making himself better. I know he needs to face what reality will be with any choice he makes. I already know he is struggling financially. He has a huge $340 cell phone bill which I know he cannot pay. I paid all bills before. He just did his own thing and I figured out how to pay for everything. Just like now, he uses his cell phone not thinking about how many minutes he has used and I paid the bill so he never had to worry about it. This is another area where he needs to see what life is really about. The therapist told him he was immature in several areas and I am sure this is one.<p>Thank you for everything. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello H&A,<p>Don't give up hope yet! I was in your shoes exactly 18 months ago. My H waffled back and forth. My H of 17 years met and fell in love with a co worker in 6 weeks and was prepared to give up everything for his new found love who was single and desparate for a man.<p>Well, D-day was in April and he finally moved out in August. I went completely dark. I wanted him to spend as much time with the ex OW as possible. I knew he would miss the children and myself. Whenever he called I let the children answer the phone. I was always in the shower or on a walk. When he visited the children, I made sure I was away for the weekend. I never, ever called him without him calling first which is as radical a 180 as I could ever do. <p>My beloved H thought I would call him crying every day begging him to come home. Not happening. I knew I just had this last chance to save the marriage and to get him away from the OW forever. It took every bit of strength I had to take away his comfort level.<p>Instead he called me constantly. Luckily, I also have caller Id on my job and let all his calls go to voicemail. His calls got increasingly more desperate. When I finally responded to his voicemail it was hours later and I sounded very happy and upbeat and oh so sorry for missing his calls. Busy with meetings etc. My call back to him was short and I ended the conversation after a minute of chit chat. <p>He could not believe I was handling the separation so well. He really thought I would fall apart and not be able to function. Of course, I did fall apart but he did not have to know that.<p>It worked! The OW could not meet all of his needs and he came home. It was not easy during the recovery but it does get better. When you do get him home please continue the Plan A with all of your heart. His withdrawals for the OW is real and very painful to see but you cannot get angry with him for pining for the OW. Right now you number one priority after getting him home is to make it safe for him to grieve. He will turn to you for comfort. Be upbeat and positive even if you are dying inside.<p>As I read your journal, it takes me right back to the dark times. Sometimes it is so painful to relive all of those memories but I just wanted to share my story with you. Hope this helps. <p>NOMO

H&A,<p>I agree with NOMO, not to give up and focus on your needs. Your posts have too brought me back to the feelings I had the day my husband moved out(2 yrs ago) and the long days and nights before that thinking it was the last of each daily function we handled together and how unbeleivably painful and crushing it all was. <p>In the week before he moved out and the 3-4 weeks after I was sooo weak, begging and crying and driving by his office, the parking lot where he was staying and FOW's house constantly, my heart breaking more and more. I'd go to his office and hear him on the phone with her. <p>Then with the help and advice of one of my mother's lifelong friends (I hadn't found MB) I told him I needed space, (he was visiting alot and hanging out with me and our 2 D's at our house) and he could take the girls for a visit but not at home, he could pick them up in the garage!! I told him to call before coming over and I'd let him know if it was ok for him to get them but I needed to not see him for a while (a month I said) and he was on the fence about FOW (EA for 3 mos and PA for 2 wks, my F best friend) so I told him to have at it!!! <p>If he couldn't decide if I was worth making it work then he was better off choosing her because I wasn't willing to settle at this point. THAT NIGHT he came over crying and begged to make it work with me. He said he was so suprised at how strong I was. <p>I still said he needed to go back and think about it and not say that again until he was sure. Then he had 2 more contacts with her trying to break it off without too much fuss- he didn't really know how b/c he felt he had used her to deal w/ our problems. I told him to take what time he needed and I'd let him know how I felt about us when he was completely done with her. With in a week he was setting up counseling sessions and begging to fix everything that was wrong w/ our past relationship. <p>This whole thing has made us deal w/ problems we overlooked or patched up before and we are really better off today because of that entire situation. I think we would have eventually divorced if we had not been forced to address them this way. So even though it was the most painful thing ever, there has been a silver lining. <p>I still have triggers and fears, but I am so thankful for having someone help me focus on why I shouldn't let him spend time at the comfort of our home then let him leave to do "whatever". Once he knew he couldn't have it all, he realized what he had to do to fix his life.<p>It sounds like you have been so supportive of him, but part of that support may actually be enabling him to ride the fence and not completely recommit to you and your family. I have been thinking of you and your posts have reminded me of how far I and we have come through all this.

Thank you for your responses NOMO and Debhere. I am trying to do what you mention. My H had the kids for his weekend visit. He has them from Friday night until Sunday at 3. I went out with friends on Friday night and had a great time. My H called me Saturday to ask a question and asked about my night. He asked where I went and I just said all over the place (we went to several different places). He said, oh I guess you were flirting with all the guys. All I said was no comment. The next day he calls and says he wants to take the loveseat from our living room for his apartment. Before he moved I told him I had a problem with that because I didn't want the OW sitting on the sofa that I picked out for our house. On Sunday I told him I still had the same concerns. He got mad and said fine, I'll go buy one. Well, he ended up coming to the house at 12:30. My friend called about 10 minutes later and asked me to come over. Ordinarily I would have refused because he was here, but this time I said fine, I'll be right over. I went to my H and said I had to go out and would he be here with the kids. He looked at his watch like he had somewhere to go. He said he would hang out for a bit. He asked where I was going and who I was going to see. I told him to see my friend, but I don't think he believed me. Well, my friend made me stay at her house until just before 3. I got home exactly at 3 so he could leave. He asked if everything was okay with my friend and I just said yes. I looked on my computer later and found out he was looking at some web sites I visited and also my buddy list from the AOL Instant Messenger. There are some of my friends screen names on there that he doesn't know and I am sure that bugged him. Today he called me at work and said he wanted to take money out of our savings acct to pay his cell phone bill. I told him that was a problem because, for one, we don't have much left since he took money to pay for his apartment, etc. and I just used some to pay our taxes. He started asking about why I left yesterday. I just said that he wasn't supposed to be back until 3 and I had plans. I think he had wanted to just leave after he dropped them off and go shopping (maybe for a sofa). I make sure I don't call him at all. If I have something to tell him I wait until he comes to get the kids. I really do have to not allow him to spend time here because it brings me down too. I have been there for him when he needed me, but who do I have when I need comfort? I know he is not in a position to offer that right now, though. This whole situation is SO stressful. I worry about if I'm saying the right things and how he will react to it. That's why it is probably better for me to limit my contact with him. <p>Well, thank you again for your suggestions. I am so happy things are working out for both of you and hopefully I can be in the same position someday. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello H&A,<p>You are doing great! Let him wonder about you for a while. I agree with you he should not be using your savings to pay his cell phone bill. I am glad you disagreed with him.<p>Whenever you do see or talk to your H, remember to not initiate any OR talks, try to seem as happy and upbeat as possible. If he wants to initiate OR talk, just acknowledge what he is telling you. Do not try to defend yourself or get angry at him. If the conversation is making you uncomfortable or you think you are going to LB just end it with a smile. Tell him you are not up to a discussion.<p>Your H sounds so much like my H. Right now he is so confused, ashamed, defensive and his back is to the wall. The OW is pressuring him to divorce you etc. You have to be the person who he wants to be with. That is why Plan A is so important. <p>This will be one of the hardest things you will go through but think of it as a real chance for you to save your marriage. If possible take hope in the fact he is spending a lot of time with the OW. My H could not fathom what to do with her after the love making etc was over. They did not have that much in common. Their differences became more obvious the more time they had to spend together. No longer were they plotting and scheming how to spend time together.<p>The FOW in my situation pressured my H to divorce me. She became very jealous when he would come home to visit the children. Of course, her fears were justified. My H never stopped loving me. He was just so carried away with having a new relationship.

Thank you NOMO for your response. I am hoping you are right that someday my H will find out the OW is not for him. I had thought previously that she might be interested in him because of how much money he makes. Since she is a co-worker, she is aware of his salary. Before the A started, my H told me she used to complain about how little her H made and that he had a loser job or something. Yesterday when we were talking about money, my H asked how I was doing on money (I think he wanted to increase the amount he gets) and I told him I was ok, but had some big utility bills this month. I mentioned that at least when I go out with friends, everyone else usually pays for me. He mentioned how when you make as much as he does, everyone always expects him to pay. Well, he doesn't go out all that much with anyone else but the OW, so I am wondering if that is what he is referring to. Maybe that will become an issue, but even if he chooses not to continue our M, he will still not have as much money as before since he will have child support and alimony (for at least 6 years) so the reality is that he will not have the money he used to for quite some time. I just don't think he realizes that the fantasy does come to an end sometime. Other than a brief slip up on Sunday, I do not mention our R now. Even last week when he briefly decided to work on our M, I let him initiate the talks. I do know that before the OW must have asked him why he moved out when he spent so much time at our house. He says he isn't sure this is correct, but I believe that if he didn't love me, he wouldn't want to spend time with me. I never invite him over, he just comes over himself. I just get so tired of the games and worrying about what to say, what not to say, how to act, etc. It is all very exhausting. I do sometimes wonder if it is all worth it. I have really changed so much since he left, that I wonder if he would still be interested in being with me, or visa versa. The time really has helped me grow, become stronger and find out who I really am. Before my life was all about him and the kids. Now I found out I have interests and enjoy going out with my friends. My H has been giving me a hard time about that because my friends are in their late 20's and I am 39. He keeps making smart comments about me going out with the "kids". It's almost like he is upset that I am developing a life now, even though he told me to move on. <p>Anyway, thank you so much for your help and support. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Well I didn't hear from my H at all yesterday. That is only the 3rd time I went an entire day without hearing anything from him. He did call early this morning to see how everyone was. He was very nice. I couldn't talk long because I had to take our D to the bus stop, though, and cut the conversation a bit short. I just wish I had some idea what his intentions are. I know he is confused, but I just feel so in limbo here. Patience is also not one of my strong points. My moods are so up and down because I want to know what is going on. He has now been gone for 5 weeks and he still hasn't figured out what he wants. I am sure he is back in contact with the OW, although I have no proof of that. I get SO lonely not having a companion. Yes, my children are company to me, but it just is not the same as having someone that loves you and that you can talk to. Does that feeling ever get any better?

H&A
I have been wondering how things are with you. I am sorry for you to be in such limbo again. It is good that you were strong and didn't call him. I wanted so bad to share the everyday things with him again, but had to make myself wait for him to ask or call and it was so hard.<p>I hated when the kids would go visit him because the house was so quiet.<p>You don't have any idea if he is interacting w/ OW. Is she back at work?<p>You have handled this so well. Try not to get down. <p>I think you have shown amazing strength and hope that he realizes the impact of his actions.

Hi Debhere:<p>Thank you for saying I have strength, because sometimes I really don't feel like I do. <p>Unfortunately, I don't know if he is in contact with the OW again. She will not be back to work for 2 weeks (my friend called the office and found out). <p>He just left after picking up the kids. I gave him his check (we worked it out that his check still gets deposited into the joint acct and I give him his portion in a check at each pay period) and his briefly mentioned the cell phone bill, then stopped and didn't say anything. I just feel like that is his problem. We have a lot of bills this month and next and if he went over his minutes on his cell phone plan, that is not my fault. I budget what money we have left for all of our bills. As it is, I am paying all the kids added expenses (school field trip fees, clothes, etc.) out of what I have extra each month. He really didn't say too much to me tonight. I was dressed in a sun dress I just got when he got here. I wasn't cooking anything and he asked if I wasn't planning on eating dinner tonight (I have lost a ton of weight and he thinks I am starving myself) and I told him I was eating and didn't say anything else. Maybe he thinks I have a date or something. Would be nice, but unfortunately not the case! My lack of information lately on what I have been doing is bugging him I think. I just figure I don't ask him what he is doing all the time, so why should I tell him. I have sort of been in an angry mood towards him lately. It just feels so unfair that he could meet someone else and just decide to move out. I am now left with 2 kids to care for on a daily basis (except for his visitation), 2 dogs, the housework, the yardwork, the repairs, etc. I haven't asked him to do anything around here because I don't want him to feel like I need him around to do these things. I have also been re-running in my mind all those horrible things he has said to me over the past 6 months and it is really making me mad. I did nothing to deserve any of this. All the problems he can think of in our marriage had long since been corrected. <p>Well, I better stop now because it am getting mad again. Maybe I'll go out to the store for a while since he has the kids. Maybe if he calls he'll see I'm not home and wonder where I am or who I'm with!!!! Got to keep him guessing. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I know how all of the entire situation and conversations play thru your head all the time and it seems so frustrating that he made all these decisions alone when you decided together to have a family. <p>I worry about 2 things you have mentioned....one is dating. I think that you really need to step back and not have that as an option now. It is so soon and you need to focus on you and wait until your feelings are more stable. I think you could end up regretting certain decisions later, regardless of the outcome of your M; <p>and eluding to him that other people are an option for you may make him feel like he might just as well do his own thing elsewhere since you are. <p>He hasn't told you of contact with OW and may just need to think thru things and you need to not question or be needy (like you have been) but be careful about the message you are sending about life without him.<p>
The not dating is not only for him and our future together, but I have seen people make horrible choices with who they hook up with when it is still during their turmoil. I have one friend about to marry the first person she dated post separation and she just clung to him as a replacement and he is so wrong for her and her children.<p>Have a fun night..... Shopping sounds great... I must have spent an absolute fortune shopping to distract myself in the 6 weeks we were separated.