mm. the issue is not maggies additional information from torn asunder, the issue is your lieing, manipulation of your wife into remaining in a marriage without full knowledge of who she is married too, if you think that is ok, you should be able to refute conquerers (and others) points with a better psychological arguement of your own, one readily apparent to most "normal" people....when do you intend to do so? If you can't and continue the self-serving, conciousless behaviour why do you think you are not a sociopath? This (life) isn't a game, you (and the rest of us) are what we are, and we can form pretty accurate assemments by virtue of observable behaviour....you act like a sociopath, and even in the face of incontrovertible evidence, continue with an unsupportable position....you have been revealed for what you are, you can no longer claim ignorance...if you don't tell, you are a sociopath, pretty simple really....There can't be anything much more conciousless that stealing someones basic humanity...now can there? If you can't see that, you are in fact a sociopath, an unfortunate reality for your wife and children....we need a way of identifying people who behave like this, so one knows the risk they take in marrying one, unfortuneately sociopaths disguise themselves well as they stalk their human prey, and are hard to defend against.

This makes no sense. Why bring up something if it is over? In my case, nothing happened. And nothing will happen. If it was going to happen, it would have occurred a couple months ago when I was totally taken by my friend. It didn't. So why would it all of a sudden heat up now, now that my embers have cooled?<p>I think the honesty works if, and it is a big if, the situation still remains hot. But if nothing has occurred, and nothing will, be quiet.<p>And I disagree that not telling somehow puts up walls in a marriage.<p>If we change this topic from sex, to say, racism, I think we can see the flaws in being so honest. Everyone is prejudiced to some degree. We don't go around teling the world about our feelings, we are aware of them -- hopefully -- and try and lead good lives.<p>Why can't a person do the same thing after he or she has recovered from an an infatuion?

mmwhoneedsandtakesnoadvice:<p>Racism being compared to infidelity... that's a first... I rather think if more people talked about their 'prejudices' the world WOULD be a better place... and btw... prejudice is NOT racism... we all may have some prejudices, but we are not all racist.<p>I know that no analogy is perfect, but man... <p>Look, if you think you are so right... why do you keep coming here? Do you get some kinda satisfaction watching us beat our heads against the wall trying to convince you of something you could care less about... The sanctity of your marriage... the fidelity of your marriage... the basic honesty between you and your wife...<p>I've only posted to you a couple of times because it seems so futile... you get 60+ posts per thread from people who have been on both sides of the fence AND STILL YOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER.<p>Well... good for you... you win the prize... you are smarter than us all...<p>Cali

It's not a contest to see who is smarter. this is a dicussion, and I think the fact that my posts generate response indicate that it is a topic that is interesting. And for all who respond, there are probably many more just reading and learning.<p>I am just being honest with how I feel. I am practicing the honesty that is espoused here.

MM -- I told you why....any response to what I told you?<p>Do you think perhaps if you had honestly dealt with the previous affair that perhaps you wouldn't have found yourself near the same place again? Imagine if your target was more willing...what would have happened then MM?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This makes no sense. Why bring up something if it is over? <hr></blockquote><p>
You've asked this question many many many times, and gotten many many many various responses. Do you think we're all wrong? I think what Cali was saying, was, you've been given a TON of advice (mmseekingadvice), and haven't moved one inch from when you first came. I'd like to recommend that you go back and read everything everyone has posted to you, the Harley Basic Concepts, Q&A's, and the recommended books, THINK about them, and then come back with some DIFFERENT questions. <p>What do you think? We're NOT trying to run you off. We all have to think through things in our OWN time, in our OWN way, but you keep asking the same question over and over. DIG into this. EXAMINE what we're actually telling you and asking you. EXAMINE your real fears, questions, anxieties, reasons for you being here. Put yourself in your WIFE'S shoes.<p>God gave us two ears and one mouth. Perhaps you might try using them that way? Listen, observe, and absorb TWICE as much as you rationalize and give excuses.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

If I was in my wife's shoes, I would not want to know

Maybe you are already in your wife's shoes, but you don't know it yet because she refuses to be honest with you!

mm,
Here's a new thread I posted. It contains a link to an older, well-respected thread. <p>I'd like to see what you think. k?

Either reply on my thread, or back on here. Thanks!<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=016800

I guess it comes to this for me: If my wife was having an affiar -- maybe she is or has -- I would prefer to not know. As long as it is not effecting her day to day relationship with me, it is better to not know.<p>I feel the same way when it comes to telling her about something that never amounted to much -- an infatuation with a woman.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
I feel the same way when it comes to telling her about something that never amounted to much -- an infatuation with a woman.<hr></blockquote><p>But what if it did amount to more? What if your W had an A where she was heavily emeshed with someone, yet still never told you? And she still harbored constant nagging feelings for her affairee? Would that be fair to you?<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:<p>I guess it comes to this for me: If my wife was having an affiar -- maybe she is or has -- I would prefer to not know. As long as it is not effecting her day to day relationship with me, it is better to not know.<hr></blockquote><p>I know I am a FWS. And this may seem ironic. But, why then are you married in the first place? Do you take your wedding vows seriously? So it would be okay for your wife to have an affair as long as you don't KNOW about it??? As long as she treats you good??? Maybe that should be added to your vows. Go ahead and cheat, so long as you can get away with it. <p>I don't have a whole lot of room to talk. But at least I have owned up to my mistakes and I am building a new life with my husband. And nothing, absolutely nothing, will be hidden from him again. Thank God, I have a conscience. I couldn't have lived with myself.<p>I am can't believe this. And I'm a cheater too!
1step

TRIGGER WARNING: This post contains material of a graphic nature that may be traumatic to a recovering BS.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
<strong>I guess it comes to this for me: If my wife was having an affiar -- maybe she is or has -- I would prefer to not know. As long as it is not effecting her day to day relationship with me, it is better to not know.<p>I feel the same way when it comes to telling her about something that never amounted to much -- an infatuation with a woman.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>In re selective honesty:<p>

• You are not to be lauded for being "honest" with us and dishonest with your W. We are not in danger from your dishonesty, but your W is.
• If "nothing" happened, then there would be "nothing" preventing you from being open and honest with your W. If you have nothing to hide, then don't.
• If it is your contention that you want a low level of honesty from your W, but why will you not allow her to determine the level of honesty she would like from you? Others here have given you scripted examples of how to allow her to make that choice without revealing anything she doesn't want to know--why have you not presented her with that choice? Will you or will you not allow her to be an equal partner in your M? When will you allow her to determine her own destiny? When will you stop stealing from her?

<p>Try on this vivid translation of your words:<p>It is better not to know whether or not my W is kissing me with a mouth that was recently inhabited by another man's semen as long as she is giving me whatever I want and need from her otherwise.<p>Even if that is the case FOR YOU, that still begs the question of how your W would prefer such information to be processed.<p>If the two of you agreed to this "don't ask, don't tell" contract from the outset of your R, then it would be none of our business, but most, if not all, of us doubt that your W agreed to those terms.<p>1step,<p>Doesn't it do a world of good for your self-image though? I tell you what, I've gained a whole new appreciation for my H, who was man enough to tell me himself what he had done. How refreshing it is to feel proud of him again. Your H must feel the same way about you. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Hope he knows how lucky he is.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

way to give an example conqueroe [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

ugh.. ok that WAS a good example.. wish I hadnt read it. Got hit by the vivid imagery crossfire... cant ignore that!
Good point tho!

mm...I guess it comes to this for me: If my wife was having an affiar -- maybe she is or has -- I would prefer to not know. As long as it is not effecting her day to day relationship with me, it is better to not know.<p>snl...You keep making the case for being a sociopath, why not just accept you might be so, and get some psychiatric input?<p>Listen REALLY CLOSE....Everything we do EFFECTS our lives...it is IMPOSSIBLE to have an affair, and NOT affect your marital relationship. However, a SOCIOPATH would make such an argument, that their actions are independent of who they are....why? Cause then they are not accountable for them, and THAT is the definition of having no conscience.<p>We are not robots, we are the sum total of our experiences, any affair (or like behaviour regardless of how you want to split hairs) is revealing of who you are, and of vital importance to your spouses ability to dictate their own lives, you bet it affects the everyday marital life, it effects the every second marital life cause it becomes a part of the marriage, you cannot seperate it out.<p>I do wonder about something, it is possible you don't care, a sociopath wouldn't, as long as they are getting what they want otherwise, cause they do not care about the relationship, or their spouse, they only function out of what is good for them. Likewise one into alternative sex might not care, even even like the thrill of not knowing whether they can trust their spouse's fidelity. Or possibly one who has serious self-esteem issues might care, but not want to know cause the fear of rejection, and dealing with it, is greater than the loss of dignity the lie represents....but none of these are normal people, normal people want to know the conditions of their life, and that most definitely includes the fidelity of a spouse, one who you have entrusted with that particular vulnerability.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HangingIn:
<strong>ugh.. ok that WAS a good example.. wish I hadnt read it. Got hit by the vivid imagery crossfire... cant ignore that!
Good point tho!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>HI,<p>That graphic imagery was courtesy of my H from his description of his feelings as a BS in his previous M, and believe me, I cleaned it up from its original language. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I do feel, however, that there is a time for getting down to the nitty-gritty and very plain speaking, and sometimes it is necessary to call a spade a spade no matter how ugly it is. In this case, MM is probably full of crap about his assertion that he would not want to know that, and if he's not, then SNL is correct with his suggestion that he may not be normal because any normal man would want to know the content of the spit he is swapping.<p>I do apologize, though, for causing any BS undue trauma by not supplying a warning, and I will be aware of that in the future. Sorry, guys. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:<p>1step,<p>Doesn't it do a world of good for your self-image though? I tell you what, I've gained a whole new appreciation for my H, who was man enough to tell me himself what he had done. How refreshing it is to feel proud of him again. Your H must feel the same way about you. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Hope he knows how lucky he is.<hr></blockquote><p>Conqueror,
Thanks! You have said many wise things. And have made my day in light of all of your pain. But my H found out about my A on his own, however, I wanted him to find out. So I pretty much set myself up. I know, the chicken's way out.
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But I came here after he found out because I had not told him all the details. My conscience was getting the best of me. He (my H) threatened to leave if my affair had turned into a sexual affair. So I clammed up. <p>I came here and posted, should I tell? I knew the answers I would get. Because I knew the right thing to do. And I needed to do it to know that he would be able to completely forgive me for what I had done to him. I just needed a push. <p>It happened 2 weeks after d-day. My H suspected there was more, but he was just waiting for me to open up. It was the best thing I have ever done. Sure it set us back. And he was extremely hurt again. But my H has respect for me now, and I know I am forgiven and we are working on a much better marriage now.With nothing to hide!<p>Thank you so much for you insight. I read your posts with great interest. You are a true Conqueror. I wish you much peace and happiness. I hope you H realizes what a gem he has in you.
Hugs
1step

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:<p>Hope he knows how lucky he is.
<hr></blockquote><p>P.S. I know how lucky I am!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: 1stepatatime ]</p>

1step,<p>You definitely did the right thing in coming clean completely. I'm still waiting for that, and my level of commitment has decreased the longer the discrepancies go on unexplained and undisclosed. I am not stupid, and he knows it, and HE is intelligent and knows I know how intelligent he is, so to continue to let some of the things he's said stand that I made clear I didn't buy is risking the R, as I've told him numerous times.<p>I just can't think of a single thing he could tell me that I haven't already conjectured based upon my knowledge of him or at least heard of from other WS on these boards. Nothing would shock me. The betrayal of whatever it is he's holding back may or may not cause me to exit the R, but the continued withholding of the information and the person that causes him to be will definitely lead to my eventual exit from the R.<p>You already know the freedom from the burden of the hidden and the cleansing of forgiveness. Wish my H would desire that enough to do the hard stuff. It would make him a whole new person.<p>Thanks for your encouragement. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]