At least publicly until now Julia has just been skittery--how many broken engagements? One failed marriage that seemed like a good try. Screwing a married man is different than simple fear of committment, though, I guess, a married man isn't legally available, can't commit to her, so it may have been to her, a logical step.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hope4future:
...but who teaches us what the heck relationships are about and what they require to maintain....or what problems can arise, how to spot them and how to deal with and avoid them? We're supposed to learn most of that on our own, and as is common, we tend to learn the hard way<hr></blockquote><p>Right there with you, H4F.<p>I'll tell you who teaches our kids .... they learn by example, by their parents. <p>Parents are supposed to be their children's role models. Just because a WS "thinks" the kids don't know what's going on (sneaking and lieing), doesn't mean they don't. THEY DO! They know alot more than you suspect. And they learn early on that their parents don't follow the same rules they've been teaching their kids. Not to lie or cheat someone, and to keep promises. <p>So what else can we expect? Our children are taught by parents (by example) when the marital road gets tough, find someone new and just bail. Bail out on your family and get a new start with someone else. <p>I shouldn't say much more, this angers me so.<p>Jo<p>[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong><p>I'll tell you who teaches our kids .... they learn by example, by their parents. <p>Parents are supposed to be their children's role models. Just because a WS "thinks" the kids don't know what's going on (sneaking and lieing), doesn't mean they don't. THEY DO! They know alot more than you suspect. And they learn early on that their parents don't follow the same rules they've been teaching their kids. Not to lie or cheat someone. To keep promises.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Yup. I have a friend whose Dad was a habitual cheater until he finally left her Mom when she was 10. Her Mom never discussed it with her (and of course neither did her Dad) but she started to figure it out (at least it all fell into place when she got older). One day, when she was an adult, her Dad said "I lost 20 lbs when your mother and I got divorced due to stress." She said "Really? I figured you lost weight so that you could pick up even more women." She said the white as-a-ghost 'Oh my god you know I'm a sleazebag" look on his face was priceless.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by fairydust:
<strong><p> What really bothers me is that it is so often glorified in the media (Russell and Meg, Julia and her MM, the daughters of the Royal family of Monaco etc) and made to seem like it is aceptable behavior. If it makes you happy right this second, go for it, and Who cares who gets hurt in the process. The other thing is the phony baloney family man/woman, "America's sweetheart" images when those people are cheating on their spouses or diddling someone else's spouse.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
You know what's funny, until I began reading it on here, I never really thought of it as being "glamorized". Then again i'm a senic (sp?). <p>Recently a friend of mine got married and had a baby. I referred to the permenant addition (meaning her child). She said "I have 2 new perm. people in my life." I was off the phone before I realized that she was counting her husband as a perm. addition. LOL!<p>Maybe becasue i'm from a single parent household in a single parent society; I NEVER think of H's as being permenant.

I tell you what Res, it angers me too. My father was no kind of a role model...I had very few good role models growing up. Look at the BASICS kids aren't learning from their parents today! Like I'm saying...the parents don't know because their parents didn't know...so the kids and their future kids won't know either! I think we should be like Australia and require classes in order to get a marriage license...and then require that it be renewed every 5 years or so...and Australia also requires a waiting period and classes in order to be granted a divorce! We can't rely on parents to pass along a message that they never got. SOME did...most did not.

So the answer is to reply on the government to teach us!? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Katie--"senic" cynic.<p>cynic: a member of a sect of ancient Greek philosophers whe held virtue to be the only good, and stressed independence from worldly needs and pleasures. They became critical of the rest of society.<p>I probbly speled sumpin rong mysef.<p>[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hope4future:
I tell you what Res, it angers me too. My father was no kind of a role model...I had very few good role models growing up. Look at the BASICS kids aren't learning from their parents today! Like I'm saying...the parents don't know because their parents didn't know...so the kids and their future kids won't know either! I think we should be like Australia and require classes in order to get a marriage license...and then require that it be renewed every 5 years or so...and Australia also requires a waiting period and classes in order to be granted a divorce! We can't rely on parents to pass along a message that they never got. SOME did...most did not.<hr></blockquote><p>I agree to an extent regarding formal schooling, H4F.<p>But the family unit, the life's lessons, the examples, the values and ethics that children should be taught, should be taught at HOME. And I don't mean just verbally .... Parents can verbally teach all they want, but it's HOW they live their lives (actions) is what children realize and try to model themselves after. <p>Jo<p>[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

LOL! It looked wrong, and I couldn't figure out how to fix it! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Katie, I had to check the spelling after I sent...y'know, I didn't know this is what it meant.

My grandparents were married for 50 years when my grandpa passed. They were good Christian people who did their best. However, nothing took away the fact tha marriage made my grandma miserable! NOTHING!<p>So here you have 2 people who stuck it out for all of the right reasons and that = a miserable household!!!!!<p>Of their 8 children less than half have successful marriages, the vast majority of my aunts and uncles are happily single parents. I was taught and shown, marriage does not assure you anything!!!! Not happiness, not security, not children, not fidility, not anything so you sure better make sure you cover your own a-s, and if you get lucky maybe you'll hook up with someone who'll help you out along the way.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>My grandparents were married for 50 years when my grandpa passed. They were good Christian people who did their best. However, nothing took away the fact tha marriage made my grandma miserable! NOTHING!<p>So here you have 2 people who stuck it out for all of the right reasons and that = a miserable household!!!!!<p>Of their 8 children less than half have successful marriages, the vast majority of my aunts and uncles are happily single parents. I was taught and shown, marriage does not assure you anything!!!! Not happiness, not security, not children, not fidility, not anything so you sure better make sure you cover your own a-s, and if you get lucky maybe you'll hook up with someone who'll help you out along the way.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Okay Katie .. I'll bite. So the answer is to have an Affair while married???<p>If you left the miserable marriage, without getting involved with anyone, was on your own, learned what your part was to make it a miserable marriage, fixed yourself ..... then perhaps got yourself involved with someone, I have to believe your children would have alot more respect for you and would have learned something valuable from how you conducted yourself as opposed to having an affair whilst married, No?<p>Jo<p>[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Res, I agree it SHOULD...but to believe that it WILL be taught at home is idealistic. We can't "make" people do the right thing...but we can make the vital information available. I, personally, was NOT informed...had I realized how common these "lows" in marriage are I might have gotten MORE informed BEFORE getting in so deep. Misinformation about what love is ABOUNDS...I'm just suggesting that we counteract with some REAL information.<p>I'm also not suggesting we "rely" on the government..I'm suggesting we rely on trained professionals to teach us relationship skills.<p>Believe me...I know it's a farfetched idea in itself...it's just frustrating to me to know how common this is, yet VERY FEW people realize it until they're in over their heads. It's like finding out that cigarettes are addictive after you've already gotten hooked. Lot of good that info does you now.<p>Just my .02...

Jo,
Certainly the answer is not to have an EMA. I guess my point in writing all of that is to say that "saving" the marriage is not always the best thing. My grandparents "saved" their marriage to what end.<p>To the best of my knowledge nobody cheated nobody was mean, it just didn't make them "happy." Correction - it didn't make "her" happy. I think grandpa was fine as long as she kept feeding him. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I here you Hope about providing vital statistics. Its like the requirement that you take economics before you graduate high school. A lot of us were thinking that graduation was going to be our ticket to freedom. Econ class broken it down in terms of dollars and cents. Showed us that we would probably need higher education, a GOOD job and a lot more then just a HS diploma.

My girlfriend is going through a divorce. Her H had numerous affairs, gave her diseasese, etc. She went to counseling for years and really did try hard. But his women, alcohol and bar lifestyle were too much for her and their 4 adorable kids.<p>The saddest part? He says that 'kids are resilient' and will get over it! Right, I guess he hasn't read the newest research on children of divorce. <p>So she's home trying to raise these boys alone, and he's off living with one of the OW and her kids (she was also married) and having a great old time. <p>Very hard not to get angry when you see things like that. And the guy is so brilliant, he can't figure out why the kids don't like visiting him and OW or spending the night!

My father was a professional infidel. 5 wives and countless girlfriends later, he's sick, single and looking for my mom (W#1) to take care of him. Kinda sad. That's what you call karma. Truth is that the kids will probably have some lumps and bumps because of his behavior and in the end they probably WILL be okay (if mom is sane). The question is, will he!?

I'm sorry about your Dad, Katie. I can see why marriage may seem frightening to you.<p>Lv,
Jo

Long marriages aren't necessarily some unending bad habit. My parents have been married 54 years, I have 4 sets of aunts & uncles that have been married longer. <p>All but one of these couples seem to have good relationships. They are so sweet--stubborn as hell all of them! But seeing couples who have known each other intimately so long is really special, I see the oneness. The one set that hasn't fared so well is Aunt Bible Prophet married to Uncle Hunter Drinker, but even with them...the last 20 years, they allow the other to be who they are, and they sparkle at each other.<p>I think the thought of having a lifelong lover/partner is wonderful. Sure, it doesn't turn out wonderful sometimes, but knowing someone really mean "in sickness and in health, for better for worse, for richer for poorer" and lived it...I think that is beautiful.<p>Bad behavior/abuse/infidelity is not beautiful. Some marriages are bad and if the partner(s) at fault won't change, divorce is an option. But I think sometimes people give up too easily.

I also keep thinking about Julia's MM's wife...can you imagine, "well, the OW was Julia Roberts". I wonder how the W's self-esteem is...like, the only woman the H could find better was rich, famous, gorgeous...or oh my God...I'm nothing like that....

Lor-<p>I don't think it's necessarily true that just because people are married for a long time it's all yuck-ville. I also don't think that just because folks stay married it's all roses and rainbows either.<p>MM and I were together for a LONG time. I understand that some of you guys won't see the specialness in this, but we could complete one another's sentances, always made each other laugh, etc. That was the first time I saw the benefit of long term anything. That was a special relationship to me. NOT always wonderful, but special.<p>I would love to some day dance at his second wedding and see him live happily ever after with someone who's NOT ME! Long term friendship is a powerful gift.<p>There's a part of me that could see going the distance with my current bf (a SG). That is provided he continues to live across town. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]