Well, the one and only friend that knows the real truth behind my H's "defection" from our marriage. She sends me this email this morning:<p>"Its not that I don't want anything to do with you...and I know that is what
you think....I feel that you should be in a different place by now and you
are refusing to get there.<p>You hang on to someone who clearly does not want to be part of your life.<p>He degrades you and you put up with it.<p>He makes you feel worthless and you still claim to love him.<p>He humiliates you and you beg him to stay.<p>This is not the person I have known. You can tell me that he has reduced you to this. YES. But rise above it!<p>You hang on to every cup of coffee he brings you, when all he does it for is to keep you quiet, so that he can continue this double life, coming and
going as he pleases.<p>You wonder why he comes over so often, when it only to see his daughter.<p>You check each day to see if his wedding band is on...when he wears it only
to cover the situation from co-workers.<p>You think you have support from his family, when in reality they will stand by their son and brother no matter what....YOU are the stranger.<p>I feel I have nothing more I can say to you on this topic. YOU NEED TO GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER NOW... Sadly enough....no one really cares to hear about this anymore.<p>I am always here for you. I just don't want to be part of this game anymore."

Ouch! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I am so sorry that you had to receive this from someone you trusted to turn to.<p>My first thought was that she cares and hates to see you hurt. She is simply trying to help you to be strong in as best a way she can.<p>However, the end of the message was simply hurtful in my eyes. You can take from it any strength you think you can use and brush off the rest and not respond, or you can respond to her. If you chose to respond you can simply say that you appreciate her concerns, and you are sorry she feels you are pulling her into some sort of game. That you are simply not ready to give up on your marriage, and that you don't ask her to agree with you but simply accept you as any true friend should. You can express you pain at some of her words (but that could open a new can or worms) or simply let her know that you would like her to be there for you as a treasured friend, but if she'd rather not hear any more that you will respect that.<p>How to handle this is really up to you. Sorry I can't give you any real advice. Again, it does look like she cares and hurts for you, but I do see that the end must have hurt you all the more.<p>In any event, we are still here for you. Hope this helps. Take care. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Sorry T -- I know that you're down and you're hurting right now -- it must be especially hard to get a letter like that from a friend.<p>I find it surprising that your friend seems to be in the same place as your MB friends. An awful lot of people want to see you move on to Plan B or something similar.<p>I know that you feel as though you are in Plan A. But I personally don't know what your Plan A is about, unless its just about being nice to H and hope that he comes out of his fog.<p>A couple important facets to Plan A is to have a time frame in mind (an END date) and the other is to be working on YOU. And I don't see those in your Plan A.<p>You've simply become an enabler.
You have no boundries. You have no end date. He comes and goes as he pleases with no incentive to change. You've let him become the Cakeman.<p>I think a lot of us want to see you reach a point where you start thinking and planning for YOU.

Dear T13, Thanks for your response. You've helped me to identify how I should best reply to her. <p>I guess this is why MB continues to be the only good option most of the time. Which further validates that I found MB for a reason. Most married people don't think they need MB. I certainly never came here while I believed my marriage was healthy.<p>Now that I have, although my behaviour is still fairly erratic, I am much more knowledgeable know about what marriage is and how very much one person can work to save it. How it can definitely survive and what a real marriage is all about...<p>Thanks again, T13. Hugs to you.

I haven't told my friends about my WH because I am afraid of getting something like that! <p>Please don't give that message much weight. That message is full of judging you and telling you what to do, and all from someone who (I suspect) has no clue what this pain is really like. You can't heal on her timeline. She thinks you have not "gotten to a different place" on time. I see that you have grown, and that doesn't take place on a preset timeline.<p>OTOH, I think she does care about you, or she wouldn't send it. She cares, so she wants you to be happy. She doesn't know that for you to get happy there is a long period of adjustments and growth.<p>Have you explained the MB concepts so she knows what you are trying to do? If not, she might be more supportive if she knew them. If so, she didn't get it.<p>But you asked what you should do next? If in doubt, wait. I see a few options. Probably you can come up with more.<p>1. Tell her that you are growing and she can't make you do it her way. Point out the positive changes you have made. This runs a risk of offending her, but it is sticking up for you.<p>2. Decide that at this time she is not going to be helpful with your marriage and cut her off. (Risky, you may not ever renew friendship, and if Div ever happens, you'll want friends.)<p>3. Decide that she isn't, for whatever reason, able to help you with your plan A and stop talking to her about it, but continue lunches, movies, whatever you enjoy doing together. The "sharing" aspect of the friendship might be a little lacking, but you also need friends that you can spend time with, activites that don't include H at all (thought of him at a minimum.)<p>As in all relationships, now that we know this stuff, we need to avoid educating and any other kinds of disrepectful judgements.

T,
Our family and friends don't usually understand Plan A. It may help to explain to her your plan, perhaps show her some of the web-site, and ASK her what she thinks, and if she has any advice from her perception. It's easy for friends and family to think we are being a doormat. Sometimes you have to stand your ground and know that you are doing what you feel is right for you. BUT, perhaps her observation is correct. Review your Plan A efforts to see if you are. I'll bump up the Misapplication of Plan A thread, and let us help you if we can. If SHE thinks you're being a doormat, then your H might also, so your Plan A may need some tweaking. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Terrified,
Sometimes friends get worn out. I think I'd first consider that she might be having a bad day/time. Is there something going on in her life? Is being there for you affecting her marriage? Does she have some control issues toward you?<p>If you feel you are on the right road for you and for the possibility of reconciliation, you could just tell her "I do love my H. He is/has been behaving very badly, but I want to give my marriage every chance because I still believe, with time and love it can be saved. I really appreciate all the support you have given me and maybe we can talk about you for awhile."<p>Or dump her [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Sometimes friends get scared that they will have to go through what you are...and they pull away.<p>If you aren't seeing a counselor, that might be a good option, easing the burden on your friend.

Well...I'm not going to be popular here...but this is the way I see it.<p>I was a WS...my friends knew about it and supported me as best as they could...and after much time had gone by I had depleted THEIR love bank! They simply didn't care any more. They still cared about ME but got tired of the meladrama and constant flip flopping. It took me some time to figure out if they were just being unsupportive as friends...or if the problem truly lay within me.<p>I chose to get my act together on my own, and then slowly reach out again. We're back to being friends and I'm doing overtime to make sure that I am there for them the way they tried their best to be there for me.<p>Your friend truly believes she is being the best friend she can be...by not beating around the bush and being an enabler in what they see as you being a doormat. She may not fully understand what your plan is or how the situation is...but she is willing to give you her honest opinion... I think that says a lot for her love for you. She may not have said it PERFECTLY...but then in the position she's in she may be ready to vent a little herself.<p>If she doesn't understand plan A...explain it to her. Show her you have it together (if you do)...if all you've been doing is calling to cry about how unfair life is...of course she's going to get tired of it. She can't fix it..only you can...and to watch someone you've always known to have it together, fall apart at the seams...is unnerving. And don't necessarily devalue her opinion right off...as a 3rd party she may see things that you do not.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: hope4future ]</p>

People that have never gone through an affair have no idea what it is like. I was in a very abusive 1st marriage. I have cried on my current H shoulders so many times and he just got so frustrated with not being able to help me he finally told me he didn't want to hear about it anymore. It hurt a lot. Because I felt I had no one. He was really the only one I ever told, and now I was left to deal with it alone.
I think the people that love us on the outside get so frustrated seeing us in pain and not being able to do anything, that they can't deal with it anymore.
That's why this place is so great. No one gets tired of listening to you and they can really relate.
Except for the way she said things she sounds like a good friend. We just have to realize people on the outside don't understand.
Hang in there.

Hi Terrified ~<p>I am going to disagree with the general consensus that your friend is wrong.<p>It sounds to me like your friend cares a great deal about you, and she sees the situation pretty clearly. Was her email harsh? Yes, but I don't think she was wrong. She said many of the same things that we have said to you also.<p>Her final paragraph is not "nice", but also very reality based. No one likes a victim. And as long as you remain a drama queen that is being victimized daily, your friends are going to grow tired of it! And remember...if you act like a victim, your H won't like it either. Victimhood has NO place in plan A either! <p>Now, I know that this is a process, and I've seen you start to grow some backbone. But she's right, its time to get your act together.<p>Your friend will probably gladly help you get on with your life. I don't see that she is telling you to divorce, she's just saying get on with things and stop focusing on him. I'll bet she'll gladly participate in Terrified living for Terrified's sake though!<p>I know it hurts. But we don't grow if we don't hurt. Funny thing about us human beings is that we don't change until the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.<p>So start changing already - you have everything to gain and absolutely NOTHING to lose. <p>Gain: You'll like yourself, your friends will like you more, and MAYBE your H might start to respond.<p>Lose: Nuthin. Your H is already lost, and your friends are backing out. <p>So, what are you going to do for you today? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>((hugs))

I agree completely BR.<p>Momrat...I have to say I think you are oversimplifing it a bit. To say that she just doesn't understand because she hasn't been there....this is true...but it's not the whole picture. I don't think that any real friend has a problem with hearing our woes...as long as we're DOING something to progress. Sitting around crying over spilt milk gets old...if you atleast pick up a rag and start cleaning it up...a friend is more willing to hear about it. I think that anyone who comes here just because someone will always listen...is misusing the help that this forum can provide. Progess is the goal...but it takes work. Actual ACTION, not just words. Once I put my money where my mouth was, my friends came around quickly. The problem wasn't theirs...it was mine...so I had to find the answers myself.

I also agree with BrambleRose. I have been on both sides. My friend's H was a serial cheater/sex addict. She went on and on about how miserable she was and yet clung to the hope that her H would change. It soon became evident that he had NO desire to fix the marriage yet she looked for every crumb thrown her way as proof that he DID want to be married to her.<p>It was sad to see her hurt daily by her H and all the while she was telling me how she had "signs" that he really did love her. It was like she believed that she had to save her marriage at any cost even if it meant total degradation and losing her self respect.<p>Now that I know how it feels to be a BS I still would give her the same advice that I did then. I told her to stop allowing this man to drag her through hell and back daily when he clearly wasn't worth it. She was hurt just as you are Terrified but hurt wasn't my intent. I was so tired of watching this once vibrant and beautiful friend become a doormat to a man with no morals who didn't know what love meant. He broke her spirit and there is nothing worse.<p>IF your H is trying then by all means fight for him in your own way but if he is adamant that he's not going to change then cut him loose and allow yourself to move on. No one should stay in a marriage at the risk of completely losing all dignity.<p>Prayers and hugs to you.

Wow, amazing replies received. How did I feel when I received it? Well, I really haven't kept her up to date about how things are going. It continues to be her perception of how things are. Perhaps the perception is the truth. <p>I know she cares about me but in her mind, I'm "right". So, I should get a legal agreement. Is that the right thing to do? I've heard both sides of the argument. Why do I make it easy? Why shouldn't he go through the pain of talking to the lawyer and setting the conditions up? <p>Yes, in ways, I've become an enabler. I just get confused every so often. It's hard to focus. <p>Not that I'm discounting the importance or the validity of her message, but quite honestly, people don't get it or understand MB principles.<p>Quite frankly, she's worn out and sick of the situation. I talked to my friend about a Plan A and she thinks it's a plan to get pregnant. Wow.<p>Bottom line is that I don't believe my friend is wrong. I just can't adjust my life to society's expectations of where I should be...unless I'm divorced or legally separated, I guess it's interpreted as not going anywhere.

Hi TD, But aren't most WS's always adamant? Does that mean that the marriage is hopeless?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TinyDancer:
I told her to stop allowing this man to drag her through hell and back daily when he clearly wasn't worth it. She was hurt just as you are Terrified but hurt wasn't my intent. I was so tired of watching this once vibrant and beautiful friend become a doormat to a man with no morals who didn't know what love meant. He broke her spirit and there is nothing worse.
<hr></blockquote><p>Terrified,<p>What TD said above is very true. My very best GF who I love dearly and have known for 17 years said almost the same thing to me that TD typed and is bolded above.<p>Yes, Terrified, your friend is being brutally honest, and IMHO, she could have been a bit more compassionate in relaying her message to you, but then again, if she had, you may not have thought about it to the point you're posting it here and asking our advice.<p>She isn't trying to intentionally hurt you, Terrified. She cares what happens to you, and so do we.<p>Jo

Jo, It's wonderful to know that you care here at MB. And I know my friend cares too but, what if you believe in the man that has morals and values. What if you believe in your heart that he really doesn't want you to give up?<p>What if you believe that he knew what love meant and I didn't?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Written by Terrified:
What if you believe that he knew what love meant and I didn't? <hr></blockquote><p>Terrified,<p>What makes you believe your H knew what love meant, yet you didn't? Be specific ... what evidence do you have, or why do you perceive that to be true? <p>Jo

Jo, He was a wonderful, loving and attentive husband. He had a passion for our home, our life, our love and our future. He was the proudest man live when our D was born. And then he started to feel more unloved by me.<p>He said that, after our D was born, he saw in me a love that he never felt I had for him. He felt jealous.<p>And it was so true that I ignored his needs, I took his love for granted, thinking it would always be there. Believing he would always be there. <p>Prior to having my D, I did place so much emphasis on my career. Never knew he felt unloved. God, how stupid I was.

I understand, Terrified. But that is the past. You have taken responsibility for what you didn't do in the marriage, and via Plan A you are trying to show your H you've corrected that behavior.<p>You need to forgive yourself now. Most of us (BS), myself included, have done things or not done things in our marriages that contributed to our spouse's unhappiness. Harley's Plan A was designed to become aware of that and correct it, then demonstrate it to our spouse's. <p>You cannot change the past, Terrified. You can only look forward now. <p>Whatever your part was, whatever you withheld from your H, was not reason for him to have an A. That is not your responsibility, it's HIS. <p>You say you believe in the man who has morals and values, but that MAN is not your H right now. The man that is having this A obviously does not have morals, at least not in my book. And because he is NOT himself right now does not make you to blame for his deviation from his values or ethics. It was his conscious decision to have an A ... He owns that, regardless of unmet needs.<p>So, you can continue to believe in him, or the un-FOGGED him, Terrified. But please quit taking responsibility for his poor decisions. Stop beating yourself up, it's not helping the situation, if anything it's prolonging it or even possibly worsening it.<p>I see in your more recent posts you have made some strides in gaining strength. It's very encouraging because I know how hard this is. Please know although this post may be a bit stern, I had MBer's tell me similar things to get me out of my depression and self loathing, and stop taking responsibility for things that I didn't own.<p>IMHO, in order to move forward you need to believe what I've said to you. If you continue to blame yourself you may never give the Harley Plan, which is the best chance to recover, a true effort. <p>Prayers for you, Hon.<p>Jo<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

T, Hi! I think you are just fine as you are. I think you have to decide when you are ready to move on... and I think you will know. Moving on may very well win your H back... but you have to know when you are ready to say you have proved in your plan a what you wanted... you have shown unconditional acccepting love in the face of his true and harsh cruelty, and yes, abuse of you. I understand you saying your H is right that you were not treating him as you could of.... very likely , and in fact, I am sure... same goes for him to you... your needs were not met... yet you did not stray to an affair.<p>Stay strong T, I believe in you and your H... he will eventually need a tougher approach when you are ready. I finally got tired of my H's cruelty- in fact... it took some real cruelty to turn me away... I went a little nuts last week... because on friday I cut him out.... I called him with the I will wait until you want to work on our marriage speech... and no more sf, dating, etc.... until you want to be full time H and father... other than that for now.... we are only dealing in money and kids...<p>So, I freaked, and went for a last ditch resolution and repeatedly called my H for the next few days after I was supposedly cutting things out.... i kind of went into a mini-flip out session... I called him over and over... until he would answer, when he answered I begged for him to talk to me...<p>well, finally, he was so mean , because of my repeated calls... that on sat. I decided I could not take the abuse... but my plan a... bad as it was... has had good affect on our marriage... and even my H had recently sd... things are better now than ever.... so let's just stay seperated, and live this way for the next couple of yrs... this is when I knew he was cake eating...<p>OK, his cruelty got me to not calling, and then I sent one final email that sd... sorry I did all that calling, I was very upset... and hoping my old H would answer the phone- I apologized for my childish actions in the email.<p>3 days later... after no contact for 3 whole days... H write me back... his email did have a negative... that I need to be "emotionally stable", but if I am emotionally stable he would be back in a heartbeat and that he loves me.... <p>What a change... earlier that week in my emotional instability I had been badgering him to decide is he gong to work on the marriage or not? I was sick of the standoff... well giving him his space., and time... turned him around in 3 days already... in 6 whole months I have not heard him say he would be home in a hearbeat... see , what happens when they really live without us?<p>I know your H will come home, have patience... I see his love for you in your posts.. he is just acting Very Childish, just like my H.<p>You will make it... step back when you are ready. The book love must be tough, gave me courage.<p>Hugs , HONEY