I don't think there is a pat answer on this. It depends on the family dynamics and the people involved. <p>In my previous marriage I told my mother, his mother (both of our fathers are deceased) and my siblings, and my closest friends. While it was nice to have the world on my side, in the end it made things worse. Why? Because none of them wanted our marriage to continue. My family/friends wanted me to throw the bum out. His mother saw his affairs as further proof that I was not a good wife (go figure on that one). Everyone saw the cracks in our relationship and used them to try to manipulate us.<p>In my current marriage, I have been very careful whom I have told. He does not want to tell anyone. I told one of my sisters (I have 4 sisters and 3 brothers). And I told one of his sisters. Why? Because I believe they are the only ones who will give us support and valid advice. They are the only ones who will not hate him and use this against him.<p>In Conqueror’s case, I think telling his family is probably imperative for her peace of mind. But be careful. His family may take it as you are only trying to stir up trouble. You may be surprise about his father too. If the family is so good at hiding secrets…. Who knows what’s in their closet. So another outcome is that his mother may have some things to share with you. (Sorry if I’m out of line here but it seems totally possible.)

OK, I'll admit, I have not told my parents. They know we've had some marital troubles, and they know things are a lot better now. They know to be praying for us. Why haven't I told? Well my mother is a habitual worrier and she has a disease that could kill her at any time. The last thing I need right now is my mother dieing because I've stressed her. I have not told my father because he would NEVER forgive my H. I suggested my WH telling them, and then apologizing to them initially. But when word never really leaked out about it, I've changed my mind. If word does leak out, and I'm fairly sure they'll hear, I'll probably suggest he tell again.<p>He told his mother. He did not tell his father as his father also has a host of health problems and can't really even talk anymore. It would destroy him physically. I think him telling his mother was a huge step. <p>BUT Here's words for the wise - YOUR INLAWS WILL SIDE WITH THEIR CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My MIL is very against As. She divorced her first husband years ago for it. However, my H said she leaned toward bad mouthing me. He said he cut her off and made it clear that none of it was my fault. She told him there was no excuse for his behavior, but had he left me for the OW, she would have been entirely on his side. (and she's a wonderful MIL, a wonderful person, a wonderful Christian, a wonderful mother). And I consider my relationship with her a good productive one. She would have showed her loyalty to me by never accepting the OW into her family. Oh she would have let her come to get togethers, but she would have never befriended her.<p>My point is this, You will not elevate your worth to your inlaws by exposing your H. Maybe some gentle pressure on him would some day reap rewards, but like I said, they will side with him. Especially if they are as tight knit as you say they are. I do not want my Sisters in law to know because I know they would side with him and every comment they made would be laced with disdain. They would constantly point out things they think I need to improve on etc. I do not need that right now. I DO NOT NEED THAT - EVER!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong> You may be surprise about his father too. If the family is so good at hiding secrets…. Who knows what’s in their closet. So another outcome is that his mother may have some things to share with you. (Sorry if I’m out of line here but it seems totally possible.)</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I have wondered the same thing since I have read that it tends to run in families, and I know that at least one of my H's siblings was a WS. I can remember my H telling me about when his mother found out, and he was still angry (had happened before I knew my H) when he told me about it because he was the one who caught his mother as she collapsed. For someone to have experienced what my H has as far as adultery is concerned and to have the rage about it he had and then to go on and do it to someone else still just boggles my mind. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm sure that's why he's afraid to tell them. He's seen what it did to them before. But he knew all that when he started down the A road, so it was part and parcel of what he was choosing.<p>I'm not sure I'm to the point of feeling conscience-bound to tell them myself, but I am definitely to the point of opting out of the deception and expressing my dissatisfaction to my H with his ongoing deceptive practices with loved ones that reflects his neglect of rebuilding the trust and safety he violated in this M. I will also express my willingness to be there for him and be supportive if and when he does tell them. I'm willing to do it jointly if that is what he wants.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
<strong>BUT Here's words for the wise - YOUR INLAWS WILL SIDE WITH THEIR CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My point is this, You will not elevate your worth to your inlaws by exposing your H. Maybe some gentle pressure on him would some day reap rewards, but like I said, they will side with him. Especially if they are as tight knit as you say they are. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yes, I am well aware of this and have no problem with it. I would expect my family to do the same even if I was the WS. They know everything I have done for their son and probably recognize it and appreciate it more than he does actually, but even if inside they were to think I might have "saved" him from doing what he did if I had been a better wife or something, they'd never say that or convey it to me, especially as long as I'm still his W.<p>And I'm confident enough about my contributions to the M and am fully cognizant that this is not my shame to bear that even if I got any vibes of blame for what happened, I'd probably stand up better under that than this ongoing deception. They are well aware of his two unfaithful wives and what he went through with all that, and I have stood by him through so many trials by fire and been steadfast and faithful through everything for more than twice as long as either of the previous Ws. (I imagine they'd wonder as I do why he did it to ME, the faithful & true one.)<p>If they for some strange reason suddenly had no appreciation for that, then c'est la vie. -I- know, my H knows and God knows what happened in this M and who is to blame for the A, so if anyone wants to judge me by what my H did, they are free to do it, of course, but it's not a judgment I will accept.

I too agree with catnip because the problem with telling people is that after the BS and WS have forgiven and moved on in recovery, people on the outside have a tough time forgiving.<p>Conqueror, it IS sad to see that your H carries on this act in front of his parents... Maybe it is a good idea to tell them, but maybe the key is in the timing? In other words, (and I'm not recommending this in any way), but if you should decide to divorce him, maybe then that would be a good time for you to tell them why.<p>In the meantime, he is not going to tell them because unfortunately, his affair was probably not a "painful" time for him!!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] And since he probably feels like his marriage is recovered from his affair, that he has nothing to apologize to them for since technically he didn't hurt them. Yuck, I know... But still, if you stand where he is standing for a second, you could see how he wouldn't want to tell his parents all the gory details...<p>Maybe it is not an indication that "he will do it to you again" but perhaps an indication that IF he did ever hurt you again, he would certainly prefer to maintain this facade in front of his family!

This is interesting, that folksd would condone deception, especially bs's. (not referring to anyone specific with following comments). The issue here is radical honesty, this principle is not unique to marital relations, it applies to all human relationships....why? Cause you are accepting emotional resources from another, and they give you those cause they trust you....if you withold information that you can reasonably be expected to know would affect their choice to interract with you...is that ok? Of course not, that makes you a liar (not telling them the truth), and a thief (taking there emotional resources under false pretenses). There are other negative outcomes as well, but that is enough right there... We call secrets "secrets" for a reason, they are about power over someone, by holding the secret you control to some degree anothers behavioural choices, usually for your own benefit...how is this ever ok? The common excuse is I won't tell other family members cause they will bug me in some way I don't like...SO WHAT, so you decide for them how they should behave? You have only 2 moral choices....you don't tell them, but cease having any relationship (or move it to a very causal basis, negateing the reason for radical honesty) or you tell them, and discuss the impact this will have on your relationship....YOU give them the opportunity to decide their own life, and in so doing you have revealed you care about them, and are trustworthy. The idea you tell or not depending on your perception of the outcome is exactly why a ws does not tell the bs, yet everyone thinks that is terrible....IMO any bs who uses the same rationalizations is no different than a ws, they are a liar and a thief also.<p>I am not surprised folks argue not to tell stuff, regardless of the issue, there is a pervasive thread through human relations to keep secrets. They are all the same, infidelity just one of many....anytime one does not tell another the truth, the relationship is not honest, it is someone using someone else for their own gain. I wonder why we do that to each other, then run about talking about how ethical we are...perhaps that is why I am fairly cool to bs re the ws lie issues and such...I know most bs are liars too...in fact most people are liars, they just don't think their lies count. It would be an interesting world (and probably a lot healthier) if their were no lies, if we all knew everything about everybody.<p>It is a little more complicated when the lie is infidelity and you are a bs, and the issue is in-laws. Technically your ws should tell their parents. But as the daughter/son in-law you too have a relationship with them.... if it is an on-going (and many are not, in my case I have no relationship with my in-laws, so there was no need to tell them, was my wifes issue), then they have an interaction with you, and need to know important facts...such as whether the marriage is troubled (hey you may even have their grandkids, who are being affected too), if you have any serious health issues, financial issues..etc.... In the case of infidelity, you simply tell them the marriage is distressed, you are unhappy, and maybe depressed, the reason is their child (your spouse) had an inappropriate relationship with another person, and you are trying to recover from that through counselling whatever (you don't have to give them all the gory details, and should refer them to their child the ws for any further information)....and ask for their forebearance and support....now HOW they respond is up to them, if you don't like it, YOUR relationship changes accordingly... that may be sad, but it is at least HONEST, the relationship relects the FREE choice of both parties, in full possesion of all relevant data. So the issue is, does one value honest relationships, or are dishonest ones ok, if they meet YOUR needs (and if so, quit critizing your ws for lieing to you, they are just practicing what you preach).<p>I do think timing is an issue, in most cases revealing the affair early to families is better, but not necessarily always.... a judgement call, but only as affects the recovery, not cause you don't want to deal with it. But at some point, divorce, seperation, or full recover, the families need to be told this deep dark secret, if that alters (or even ends) some of the family relationships, so be it, they should end. If someone uses it to snipe at you in the future, you confront them, make it clear they will not do that, if they do, you remove them from your life, and ignore them at other times. Yes family dynamics are complex, and can be a pain, but adding dishonesty to the mix is of dubious value. Worst case is you never see them again, ok that's fine, it means they are pretty screwed up people, so why would you want a relationship (or your kids) with them anyways? Truth is always the best policy in relationships. <p>How much truth depends on the depth of the relationship, those who have no relationship other than the occassional interraction at a holiday have much less reason to tell, it is not really a secret then, cause the interactions are perfunctory...<p>Let me ask a related question. Say you work at a business, take their money, which is owned by someone who made it clear when you hired in they do not want anyone working for them who has been a ws. And you hired in with that truth....subsequently you became a ws, do you quit? Do you tell the owner, let them decide your fate (maybe they have changed mind, maybe your attitude will make a difference, maybe maybe maybe)? Do you keep the secret, continue to take this owners money with the lie between you (is a small business, and s/he just does not want to interact with a ws, even unknowingly), and you have developed a relationship with the owner. Or do you just lie cause you need the money, and hey is none of their business anyways (says who, they think it is, and told you that up front).<p>Lies, lies, and more lies, the games people play with each other, this whole issue of lieing to parents, in-laws, and close family relationships is fascinateing. Maybe we are all liars in the final analysis, maybe all this talk about fairplay, ethics and such is just talk, there is no such thing as a moral person, just various shades of rationalizing, manipulateing, self-interest....I am beginning to think so as these kinds of issues come up and are discussed....is similar to those who think keeping information they have from an unknowing bs is ok, secrets are secrets, and all of them are bad, and if you are keeping one, you are just as bad as anyone else. That's the way life works.....<p>[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

I agree in part with zorweb that it depends on the situation. I confided in my Mother-in-law about my wife's affair because she is a survivor of living over forty years with an alcoholic husband. She understands addictions and has been a big help emotionally for me. She has not, at least to my knowledge, tried to force her opinions on her daughter. She has just been there to support both of us when we need it.<p>Incidently, I'm just wondering how everyone feels how this honesty stuff fits in if the WS and OP have an ongoing affair and are also co-workers. Does their company have a right to know?

Snl,<p>While I agree that radical honesty is not unique to marital relationships it does not hold in all human relationships. And that is not to say that lying is acceptable. We just do not need to share all of the details of our lives with every one we know.<p>Re…… The issue here is radical honesty, this principle is not unique to marital relations, it applies to all human relationships<p>You are assuming that all people can handle radical honesty. You are assuming that people will not use the things told to hurt the person. If I were to tell my family, there are members in my family that would tell everyone, and I mean everyone. I am sorry, but the world does not belong in my bedroom.<p>I can tell you this. I am radically honest with the people I trust. I am not with the people who have proven to be less then trustworthy. Just because a person is a member of an extended family it does not mean that they are trustworthy.<p>And there is the issue of what are we obligated to share with friends and extended family? Do we tell them everything that goes on in our homes and in our bedrooms? Do we publish a daily report… Today day discovered that my spouse like porn. Yesterday they were …. by themselves in the bathroom. I think not. Affairs are very private information. We each have to decide where to draw that line. <p>I have only met two of my H’s family members… his mom and one sister. I am close to them. I have not met his other sisters. They are not close. So are we supposed to write, call visit these people and for the purpose of telling them of the affairs. I think now?<p>Am I supposed to tell my extended family when I know what they will do with the information? When I know that they will use it in a way that will hurt my children, my husband and me? I don’t think so.<p>In addition I my mother is too physically and mentally fragile at 80 to handle this crap. She is also one of the least trustworthy of my family members. I have an immediate extended family to at least 40, the larger goes into the hundreds. Which of them am I supposed to tell?<p>I agree with you totally in theory. But there is a level of practicality that needs to be taken into consideration.

Always Hopeful, <p>Re….. Incidentally, I'm just wondering how everyone feels how this honesty stuff fits in if the WS and OP have an ongoing affair and are also co-workers. Does their company have a right to know?<p>Since the company could become legally liable for the fall out of the affair, yes I think they do have the right to know.<p>Do keep in mind that he may be fired when/if they find out. On the other hand the company may already know and not give a darn.<p>So how would you go about telling them? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>-----------------------------------
Another thought and the broader discussion… Perhaps a good rule of thumb is that those whose daily lives are affected by an affair are absolutely entitled to radical honestly about the affair… the BS, WS, OP, OP’s spouse, children living at home, perhaps children who have already left home. I also think that includes anyone else who is living in the household because they are going to witness behavior that makes no sense.<p>Others, outside of the immediate family and home occupants are told at the discression of the BS. Yes, I believe this is the BS’s call. But I believe that the BS has be make sure they are not telling people just to ruin or get revenge on the WS. I’d think that the purpose of telling would be to get very badly needed support for rebuilding the marriage.

Thanks everyone for all your thoughtful responses. I hope I haven't hijacked Conqueror's thread by adding my issues about who the people you tell might tell, but the responses have been very helpful as I develop a position on this. <p>Conqueror, this is so parallel! My WH was SO angry with his younger sister's exH because of the way he treated her (2 affairs with a separation in between.) So how could he do the same thing to me! Like you I wonder about what FIL may have done??? <p>OTOH, my situation is a little different because my WH does not want to tell his family because he is sure they will be judgemental of him and cut him out of the family, so that part is not the same. <p>jamup, I am not afraid my inlaws will side with him, I hope they will. In fact, when they find out, (I am still hoping WH will tell them) I plan to tell them that he needs support more than I do (I have MB [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) and I am going to ask them not to "educate" or "lecture" him, because I know how he will react to that and it will backfire! What I most fear is that they will tell my children more than they are old enough to handle. <p>side to SNL: Don't worry, I have suffered through my mom not telling me about what happened to cause her divorce. I am only now putting pieces together to figure out it was my dad having an A - Mom NEVER mentioned that! I WILL NOT continue the secrecy with my children. Whether or not my marriage recovers, my children will know, and will probably get Harley books as wedding presents. But my H and I should be the ones to tell my children, no one else!!!<p>SNL, I agree with most of what you said about level of honesty in relationships. I have been analyzing all of my relationships since Dday. Each person I interact with, I think, "How would my relationship change if they knew about A?" In most cases, I have been shocked to find that I believe they would not support me - they would either say "You should have expected it based on the way you treat him." (not being a stay at home mom, for instance, even though WH has told me he does NOT want me to quit my job, he wants the financial security from it, but outsiders see only through their own lenses.) or they would say "What a jerk, divorce him immediately" and not support my effort to restore my marriage. So I have done what you suggest and reduced these friendships to more casual relationships.<p>Orchid, I think you are right about enabling the A. OTOH, WH indicated to me from Dday, that if it was common knowledge (the A), then he would have no reason to stay and if I told, he would leave. I am now beginning to believe that this was some emotional blackmail. I had been silent as telling will clearly be an LB and in an effort to "obey" my H. But now it is becoming a case of I have to obey God first and it is not obeying God to be dishonest. It may well be true that if I tell others, he will leave, but, well, he's been on the fence long enough anyway. <p>Zorweb, I am a little concerned about telling my family because of the possible reaction you relate - they may not be supportive of my efforts to restore my M. However, I am strong enough now that I can hold on to my beliefs in spite of their opposition, and it my be healthy to tell my H that no matter what they think I will choose him, if he chooses me. I think he doesn't know that I will choose him even if my family is against it and will choose him over them.<p>There is still a timing issue. I guess I have always known that our families deserve to know but I was hoping we could say "This has happened but we have recommitted to our marriage, please support us." and now it looks like maybe I shouldn't wait for this?

I agree with Catnip also. Just because you dont tell all your garbage to your family doesnt mean you are keeping secrets. I wouldnt tell his/my parents other personal stuff.
I think you really need to examine who you tell and more importantly WHY.
Oh I wanted to tell everyone so they would feel sorry for me and tell me he was sooo wrong. They would make him feel like the crumb he was. He would never be able to forget how he had screwed up......
We didnt tell anyone at first, although when we came back from our romantic trip and I was crying his mother figured it out quick.
I didnt tell my parents because he would not have been their choice for a son in law, this would make it worse for me. I would have had to feel their "pity" which would be worse than any support they could give.
His father still doesnt know.
All parents knew we were going through a "rough time" and were thinking of seperating. What else do they need to know?
Later my H chose to tell his immediate co-workers and we are glad he did, they have been very supportive. His boss also knows which helped with scheduling.
Nobody but my H and I (and OW of course) know the details of the A and how we have been working on our Marriage.
I guess I think there is no "right" answer of who you should tell. But you should ALWAYS make sure the reason you tell will have some benefit to the marriage and is honorable and not selfish.
I think "we are/ were having some problems in our marriage" are honest enough for most everyone.

I am so glad I read what was said. I have been coming to this site and gathering much strength and information. This is the first time I have written anything though. My H had an affair that was discovered a year ago. We have tried counseling (he has since quit going). To make a long story short, there has been on/off contact with the OW. The last period of no contact was going well. We are in the process of moving job transfer for H. Things were looking up but there was another contact which resulted with the OW coming to my house two weekends ago. H didn't want to see her, sent me out. I went out in a panic and shock. I told her H didn't want to see her, etc. I had to do this to protect my children who were at home at the time. This is just nuts. <p>We went to a planned spring break vacation, went house hunting, still in shock of what happened. I went to counseling this week, and my eyes were opened by the counselor as to the seriousness of that situation. I tried to obtain a no-trespass order which would inform OW and OM of our intent, H refuses to sign it! <p>As to what I read today, H parent's don't know, mine finally do. I am learning how emtionally abusive H really is, I hate this! I understand plan A and have done it, but as the counselor said, life is to comfortable for H and now it is time to no longer be nice! I am scared, confused, etc. I read a post a long time ago about how WS lose their minds, oh what an understatment. I have admitted my part, I have been working on changing, why oh why is this so hard, why can't they see it?????

Bgentle <p>It sounds like you are at a good point now. If you can tell your family and be firm in your commitment to your husband and recovery then you are in a good place.<p>It may also be a good way for you to pass on info about Marriage Builders, how to recover a marriage, and how to affair proof a marriage to your family members. Who knows, it may help one of them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zorweb:
[qb]Always Hopeful, <p>Re&#8230;.. Incidentally, I'm just wondering how everyone feels how this honesty stuff fits in if the WS and OP have an ongoing affair and are also co-workers. Does their company have a right to know?<p>Since the company could become legally liable for the fall out of the affair, yes I think they do have the right to know.<p>Do keep in mind that he may be fired when/if they find out. On the other hand the company may already know and not give a darn.<p>So how would you go about telling them? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] "<p>Believe me, I fantasized about this about a million times. I'm not quite sure. Probably through some type of written communication to the OP's superior at first. If I decide to file for divorce and claim adultery it would be pretty academic. I'm sure it would leak through to their company even without my help. <p>"Others, outside of the immediate family and home occupants are told at the discression of the BS. Yes, I believe this is the BS&#8217;s call. But I believe that the BS has be make sure they are not telling people just to ruin or get revenge on the WS. " <p>This is what I am afraid of how it might be interpreted. What the Hell, I KNOW it would be interpreted in this way.<p>But I have thought about it quite a bit. People in desparate situations sometimes do funny things to cover their tracks. Since both my wife and this OP (her boss) work for a financial institution, this opens up a realm of possibilities. If my wife gets implicated in something, it may not only effect me but our entire family.<p>Do I have cause for concern here?<p>[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]<p>[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

I suggested my H inform his immediate supervisor and be ready to face the consequences. He did. Well the supervisor told him that he did not want to know about it as there would be a huge investigation that could get both of them fired and would spread the word of the A throughout our small community. The supervisor said that if it leaked back to a point that it had to be addressed, he, the supervisor, would act like he was hearing it for the first time. In the meantime, the supervisor has helped with scheduling and has agreed to answer any questions I may have about the type of contact between the 2 of them now. (although I've never asked). I feel that my WH has fulfilled his responsibility even though if it ever comes out, it will be like he never told anyone.

I have not told my H's parents up to this point mostly because I figured we were going to end up at least separated, if not divorced, that it would all come out then, so I just tabled it because all of my emotional energy was spent on whether to stay in the M or not.<p>Now that things have stabilized somewhat and I'm reevaluating things in a more long-term way, I'm having to take some of these things off the shelf and deal with them.<p>Another point about it is that there are times in that family where jokes or other commentary is made about adultery in the news, and not only do some of the things brought up and said trigger my trauma, but I KNOW these people would feel terrible to realize they were causing me pain because if they KNEW, they would avoid those subjects and be sensitive.<p>And in the same way, when they're criticizing Guiliani or some other public adulterer, they have no idea their son is sitting there having done the same things. They'd probably express their disappointment, but certainly they'd rather have the option of expressing their disapproval of adultery in the context of knowing who they were talking to--adulterer vs. non-adulterer. I know I try to temper things I say to repentant FWS and be sensitive to their feelings, and my in-laws would prefer to do that, too.<p>I've had to just get up abruptly and leave the table during meals because the discussion hits too close to home, and I'm afraid I'll burst out with the truth. Maybe that's what I should have done. I don't know, but I know it's getting harder and harder to interact with them DUE TO NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They have supported their children through thick and thin, and they do not tell family business outside the family, so there is no excuse for my H to treat them this way.<p>The other side to this coin is that even if I had no love or personal empathy for my in-laws, the situation is causing strain WITHIN the M as with any other POJA conflict. This issue has not been POJA-ed, and relationships with in-laws, as with any other relationships outside the M, should be POJA-ed. If my H wants weekly visits to his parents to be part of the M, then we're going to have to find a way for those visits to be an experience we can both enthusiastically agree to, don't you think?<p>And the ongoing evidence of deception in relationships is a huge LB for me that violates the rule of protection. He is the cause of my unhappiness when we go over there and I experience what I experience and witness what I witness.<p>Of course, he has yet to commit specifically to POJA and the rule of protection. Even though he claims to have committed to the Harley plan of recovery, he has yet to educate himself as to what that is. But I know what they are, and I told him that is the M I want and the only one I will agree to, so there you have it. We'll see what happens.

BUT Here's words for the wise - YOUR INLAWS WILL SIDE WITH THEIR CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not necessarily. My FIL practically has disowned her. Her mom does not like what she did one little bit but is still willing to talk to her (even though my ex has only called her once in the last 3 years.) MIL writes her occasionally but does not get any response. All of her bro/sis are not on her side about all of this. If wankboy was to show up anywhere around their family, someone would probably get killed.