I am a stubborn mule. I am bound and determined. I am resolved. <p>There are so many signs of recovery. This morning I was almost set back. ALMOST. But, I am learning. Learning to think before I speak. Learning to take ME out of the equation and focus on what matters. US.<p>Morning snuggling was leading to SF. My face moved to his for kissing and in one swift movement my heart pinged... but did not shatter... for I am stubborn. I am thinking. I am learning. <p>Why? I ask. Are you saving your kisses? This makes him mad. Angry. Defensive. Why? I ask. Why are you so angry? Why are you so defensive? <p>Why he asks are you doing this now! Why? I use a low voice. I am determined. I am stubborn. When is a good time? I ask. When is a good time? <p>He says he knows there is no good time. He knows we have to go through this... he just doesn't want to--but he knows we have to...<p>You don't want to kiss me. I say. He says it's not because he's saving his kisses. (but, I really don't believe him.) He says I don't kiss the way he wants me to. (That hurts. It has hurt for a while. 10 years.)<p>But, I am stubborn. I am resolved. I do not let the hurt show. Cannot. I say simply. quietly. And, where would you have me learn this? I have kissed only YOU. All of my life. Only you. He says I don't listen to him. That I am not relaxed. How do I get relaxed? This is important. Kisses are important to you. How do I relax? I've only kissed you.<p>(Yes, it is true that I took it personally so many years ago... but with our new reality, since my new understanding, since d-day... he won't. He avoids me. He let's me kiss him... slightly off center of the mouth.)<p>Emotions overwhelm me. He turns on his side crossing his arms in front of me... shield himself from me... he won't let me in. I am determined. I am resolved. I love him. I lay looking at him through the shield. He looks back. I say "let me in." His arms envelope me. We stroke and cuddle... but still no kisses.<p>He knows we have to go through this. He doesn't want to. But he is. I am stubborn. I am determined. How do I do this? I've only kissed him.<p>Cali

HI Cali, I am sorry your H does not like your Kiss... my H says the same dang thing... I have no idea... wehre this came along- I bet it is not you... he probably has an issue about kissing his issue...<p>I know, since my H says he does not like to kiss me, sometimes he does... but he also says he does not like my kiss ? I have known him since I was 16 yrs old, and I am 33... I too, ask, well, why? My best explanations, in my case are these 2-<p>He really does say breath and dental /oral hygiene is an issue... Now I know I am quite clean, but I like most humans wake with morning breath... I have also learned over the yrs... H expects me to look and be beautiful even while caring for him and 2 kids... or being sick... so he was turned off a bit by me, and my unperfectness... poor baby h? I know my anger is coming out.<p>I too, know the hurt of h not wanting to kiss.... as it is the more tender of things sexual I enjoy.... <p>I just think men prefer the real act... and if they can gert the real act... why bother with kisses and such? I would love to know more about why he doesn't like to kiss.<p>Another one of my best friends also says her H will not kiss her...<p>Well, do not know... my H also sd he thinks the mouth is dirty , period... well, what about the other body parts he does not mind using? I just don't get it either, and I know it hurts... <p>Try being simply beautiful, and a bit alluring, and making him wait a bit for the real thing if that does not hurt your sf relationship.... I do know I have gotten way more kisses during our seperation than I have in yrs... kind of strange!<p>Hugs to you, I understand this hurt... I hope he changes... He used to kiss you right? What changed, was it that he didn't have to , to get to the next base.? I am not trying to be mean, but this is one of the only explanantions I can come up with for my h's beha vior... sure morning breath, but what else? He has it too, the breath thing... and I like to kiss!<p>
OH my G! Recently we got a sf game , I bought it for him for valentines... and one of the cards I drew required me to kiss him in 3 ways... and he enjoyed it... I think one was sensual, one was ... I don't know can't remember... but I bought the game at redenvelope .com and we really enjoyed it.... got us doing more of the pre sf act activities that are so much more bonding and building to the relationship,, the game also has intimate bonding relationship questions in it, as well as physical cards... <p>Hugs, HOney
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Brainstorming...<p>Can you turn this into a playful thing? Or, a research project?<p>Invite him to be the instuctor in Kissing 101, where he can use any technique he likes to teach you?<p>What are his favorite movie "kisses".<p>Do relaxation exercises together, followed by a 10 second kiss (once per day).<p>Try other kinds of kisses. Be as imaginative as you can. Eskimo kisses. Butterfly kisses. Kiss various parts of the body... Use various parts...
You get the idea.<p>I'm trying to think of things that don't involve talking, or answering "why" questions.<p>I'm quite impressed that it all ended with a cuddle... Actually that deserves a WOW!!!<p> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jeffers<p>P.S. If you haven't seen any books on kissing there prob'ly ain't none.

Jeffers... <p>I'm gonna try it, again. The playful thing... I have been 'afraid' to... but since I feel recovery is just inches away, I will bring it up at a less 'crucial' time.<p>btw... I have a book on kissing [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p> Would you be even more wowed that the cuddle ended in ???!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] !!!!??? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cali

Cali,
I feel badly for your dilemma. Kissing is such an intimate thing and it is one of the things that I am learning to enjoy again. Here is a link that I think might be helpful. It helped me! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Now let's see if I can do this right...<p>
http://www.sensual-love.com/kissing/<p>Good Luck!
1step

Cali...I'm on the other side of that fence. One of the "new" experiences the OM and I had was making out. Kissing my H was never like that. I will definatly say that breath is a part of the problem with him...and that we lack something in timing or something...but I also think that I am a major part of it. Kissing is intimate...and I have such a hard time letting my H in that way. I never EVER had a problem with "breathing" with the OM...yet with the H I always feel like I can't breathe. I do know that it is possible for us to kiss passionatly though, because the first time we were together after being apart for a year...was AMAZING. We kissed with passion and he really let loose everywhere else too. Hasn't happend since...but that isn't my focus right now either. I'm focusing on fixing us at deeper levels first...then we'll frolic in the other areas (it will also require a SITTER). There definatly ARE books on kissing. I might just have to check one out myself [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

1stepatatime,<p>What a link... I like it.<p>
Cali,<p>I guessed where you were going with your cuddle... You've always said you guys were good at THAT!<p>I was totally amazed that a conversation that would normally escalate.... didn't. Yipeee.<p>I have recently gone back to reading some more of Susan Page (I had stopped at the "act as if" and "loving gifts" section.) I had run out of energy to do much of anything, but now I'm feeling a bit more like putting forth an effort again. <p>I think I like to hang onto my anger/disappointment/sadness a little too much. Normal scenario: she ignores me, I quietly run off and hide in the bedroom, am "sleeping" when she comes to bed, I avoid her in the morning. We might be o.k. by the next evening, or we might do a repeat. <p>Recently, I've been "snuggling" up to her in bed regardless of pre-bedtime behavior (or how I'm feeling) - "acting as if". She always responds to this by wrapping my arms around her and pulling me closer. Geez, a days worth of nastiness avoided. <p>So... I applaud any situation that is made to end well.<p>Jeffers

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jeffers:<p>What a link... I like it.<hr></blockquote><p>
Thanks! I do too! <p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
1step

1step... I can't get to link from work... we've got quite a protection on our Internet... will check it out from home...<p>Jeffers... did I mentiont that I was stubborn... was determined... before I would have started crying... would have turned my back to him... would have gone storming out of the bedroom... not anymore.<p>thanks honey... it is hard.<p>thanks hope4future for a view from the other side... I rather think it is guilt plus stubbornness... it is kissing that brought them together... my H is a sensitive sucker... love him all the more for it...<p>Cali

Cali,
If you can't get it to work, go to www.lovingyou.com and click on sensual love. It's a pretty good website. Lot's of good ideas. Have fun!
1step

My opinion is that it may have more to do with intimacy than technique. Schnarch (Passionate Marriage):<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Kissing reveals more than we realize--and more than we like. Kissing always contains the emotional "signature" of the kisser and kissee. It contains our reactions to who kissed us and how they kissed. It reflects how intimacy, sex, love, and our personal history are pictured in our conscious and unconscious inner world. Kissing makes a great Rorschach test--but remember, your interpretations about your spouse may say more about you than him or her. The history of your life (and marriage) determines how a kiss feels as much as the lips (and emotional dynamics) of your partner. All that is 100% certain is that you experience it the way you do--the safest interpretation to make about your reaction to foreplay is what is says about you. "I feel that way because of you" is emotional Siamese-twin style. Try, "What does it say about me that I feel this way?" Interpretations about your partner are best kept unsaid--unless you want to poke at each other's sexual blind spots in the guise of being "helpful".<p>As I've said, foreplay is where boundaries of intimacy and eroticism are negotiated. People read nuances of how much of either one is desired. A most revealing example is the signal that foreplay is over......<p>Foreplay reflects the politics of intimacy and power in your relationship.<hr></blockquote><p>I also have my own "toll booth" theory. When you are single and dating, there is no end to guys wanting to kiss you because they KNOW that is the toll that must be paid to get onto the expressway to sex. I think when a guy who is not really into kissing for its own sake gets married, he feels that he has gotten one of those cards that allows him to drive right on through without stopping at the toll booth.<p>Schnarch also makes the case about one of the paradoxes of M being the more important our spouse becomes to us, the more resistant to intimacy we become because of how much we fear our own vulnerability when we are dependent upon other-validated intimacy. When our goal is self-validated intimacy, we may be scared to death, but we expose ourselves anyway and so that we can learn to soothe ourselves.<p>The more differentiated we become, the greater our capacity for intimacy because we are less dependent on other-validated intimacy, which is a lot more scary when you think about it.<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Hi to you all! I have a question don't know if any of u can offer any insite to this... H & I are in the process seperating, we r in seperate rooms & our place has been sold but possesion date not till July. My question is H is adamant that this seperation is going ahead he has told some people & I have told my family he is making plans to move on alone & each time i ask can't we try one more time i get the answer u know it would never work (there is no OP involved here, but some 11yrs ago there was) So then why when he went to the pub does he come home largered & comes up 2 my room & asks me why i am in his bed (his bed room is downstairs) I had just come home from overseas & decided that I would b upstairs, I had been in a seperate room b4 i left) anyway he proceeds 2 tell me that he had taken the sheets off his bed (which he had) & hadnt got them back on, he then proceeds to kiss me passionately & trys to make out with me but because he is so drunk it's impossible, but goes on & on for about an hour about how i'm gagging 4 sex & how he wants 2 please me (this is a guy that is planning a life on his own!) this has happened twice now & because i am not the one that wants out i let this go on, I dont know what my response should be maybe i can't let go & am happy to have this rather than nothing..but the end is drawing near he kisses me just soooo passionately I can't believe it's happening, also he had the perfect opportunity to tell his father about us seperating last week when i was away (he lives a long way away) & instead of telling him he went on a bender for a couple of days & his father didnt know where he was & was worried about him (his father was here 4 a week) I have written him emails asking cant we have one more go but as usual i get the reaponse an emphatic NO! lets move on & get on with our lives has this happened to anyone else out there I am hoping someone can give me some advice???????

Okay, let me first say I love the way you write!!! <p>Second, this used to be an issue between my H and I. He wanted more passionate kisses, with tongue and all. <p>You know what is strange, since D-day we have been making out like mad. We also have sex like once a day at least. It increased out attraction to each other. <p>I didn't read thru all of this, exactly what is it he does not like?

Some useful advice for all in this thread! Maybe we'll all become better kissers! My gut tells me that Conqueror is onto something though... I think it's likely not directly related to kissing at all. I would think there could be some other "intimacy" thing going on... Maybe something that is too difficult to talk about so it's easier to "blame" the act of kissing. Maybe kissing is too intimate... Have you talked about that possibility? Does your H really feel "safe" with you? I find it hard to believe that kissing could be a turn-off for many people. When your H fantasizes, does it include kissing? This has GOT to be solvable! Good luck!

Thank you to all who have replied...<p>Yes, I too believe that Conqueror is onto something... when I read that in "The Passionate Marriage" all kinds of bells rung.<p>It is that DAMN wall my H has constructed... and I am a stubborn mule. I am determined... as that song by Shelby Lyn goes... "You don't have a clue. That wall will come down."<p>His main complaint is that I don't seem to relax... I keep my jaw too 'tight.' Right now, I just think the interference is the 'specialness' that he placed on their kisses... that they felt so right... my sarcastic self says that if I had the 'kissing' experiences she did, I'd be pretty da*n efficient at it too... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>btw... we have NO other problems...
Hugs to all
Cali...

Conqueror,<p>I like your toll-booth analogy. I was never much interested in kissing all the time- I wonder if it was a case of "why kiss if you don't have to?"<p>Now, I'm not sure my motive isn't just as ulterior. I like to kiss all the time. It's a good emotional thermometer. Is she irritated, pleased, warm, inviting, busy? It all comes out in the kiss... without a word. Maybe someday I'll get to the point where I *KNOW* I'm kissing- just because- and for no other reason.<p>Cali,<p>You've finished that book already??? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I could've sworn I got my copy before you (Thursday) and I haven't gotten to the kissing section yet. <p>So far it's fascinating. Sure validates the way I "prefer" to look at marriage. (Is it o.k. to get validated by a book?)<p>Jeffers

jeffers,
Yeah, I can read THAT fast... but, just to reassure you, I picked it up March 15... so I've had it 'awhile.'<p>just remind me, sometimes, that I have to be patient... based on what H said to family over Easter dinner, I'm fairly sure we will be okay... <p>I just have to be patient and let God work in him and give him time to 'catch' up.<p>That's kinda what I thought before d-day... but with one BIG difference... before I thought I had to push him and teach him... (read make him feel like an imbecile, a child and control everything he did)...<p>Cali

I just started reading again seriously about a year ago... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I keep feeling like I'm missing something important... I have 6 books going right now. Took a month to read "Anna Karenina" (LOTS to think about in that book). I keep remembering passages from previous books so I get sucked into rereading things a lot (like the whole Tolkien trilogy). I'd forgotten how much fun reading was - or is it just escape?
-----<p>You used to push and pull. Now you're waiting for him to "catch up". He may not take the same path as you. I guess you gotta hope he still goes in approximately the same direction (would that be a Schnarchism?) I started taking this analogy further, then confused myself, so I figured I'd stop here.<p>Jeffers

hey jeffers...<p>I meant in terms of 'us.' Okay... here's another lesson to keep reminding me of... "I am only in charge of my 1/2 of the relationship." Shouldn't put value judgments on his... <p>As for catching up... I think about the triangle next to MarriageBuilders... I think we both have the same goal... tonight he made some comment about 'sex' being only for serious, committed relationships... same kinda comment he 'used' to make... so now... I just gotta be the 'Cali' he fell in love w/ long ago... somewhere along the way she forgot how to just 'love' him like he is... and she got 'mad' about everything... saw everything as unfair... a burden... <p>I'm looking at the world w/ new eyes... more importantly... I am telling him about it... sharing myself... something I have always been afraid to do... but one of his more important needs... to know the inner most self of someone...<p>For him, the key was The Word.... my H has a deep belief so I know he bears a tremendous guilt... he has to come to really believe that God has forgiven him... more importantly he has to forgive himself for being human and fallible... <p>eek... this is getting too deep... must be the fact I am dead tired from all the holiday fuss... my 'rational' brain is on auto-pilot and all that's left is the philosophical side!<p>Cali<p>Cali

I'm glad others have mentioned this kissing thing. On the odd occasions when WH and I have been intimate (were separated, I want him back but I dont think he thinks it will work), the first few times H could not kiss me but could make love. He said it straight out...it was too intimate for him, too committing. Interesting. I was hurt of course. But hes kissed me a few times since then, although hes still not sure about us. The funny thing is, he always loved kissing more than me, but now I feel I want it so badly more than anything else. <p>Dancer