{{{ NIKKO }}}<p>YOU and I have more in common than you realize.<p>Pepper

pepper-would you care to elaborate? you sounded a little harsh with me before. i know reading these threads and not knowing the whole story sometimes gets us going-i dont mind,sometimes i need harsh words. i have come to a place in myself that i feel empowered, i feel strong again, i have set boundries for myself. i keep plan a'ing and waiting-i just decided not to wait forever. he has to help himself.

Dear Nikko ....<p>I know I sounded "harsh" .... You held yourself together under my harshness! GOOD for YOU!<p>I will explain later when I have more time.<p>My WH has been in AA for 6 years. His dad died from alcoholic cirrhosis a year after our D-day.<p>I was soooo disrespectful to my husband during early recovery ... and I felt "justified" while being disrespectful. It did not help ME in my recovery!!!!!!!<p>More later.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

dear pepper-i am not in any way disrespectfull to my husband. i love him, thats why i am here. i want him to help himself. i have respected him and his feelings to the point of letting my needs take a back seat-i am stronger and can hold it together and do this. i just have limits on it. if he is willing to spend this money and not get himself counseling-that speaks volumes to me. i cannot fix him nor will i try. i will be supportive and patient while he tries. i will do whatever neccesary while he tries. the problem is he is not trying. if he believes i will accept the marriage the way it is because he chose me, he truely is in for a surprise.

Nikko,<p>The first time I felt I had to put on the skids was when he wanted to buy some property way out of town and put a mobile home on it. I laid it out just like that: I don't have enough security in my M to feel safe out in the middle of nowhere with you working in town and me having no way to check up on you when you act suspicious (which he was still doing at the time), not to mention being all alone out there with no support system if I should end up being a single mom.<p>His only response was to make a slight argument in favor of the mobile home idea because of how much more house you could get for the $, and he avoided addressing the security issue completely, at least verbally. But I at least was open and honest about it and felt I had done my duty.<p>It was clear that he did hear me because then he started looking at regular houses in town, but the next thing I know, he's interested in the house next door to his parents when that came up for sale! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I admit I dropped the ball on this one. I didn't get brave enough to spill the beans until AFTER the realtor had taken us on a tour of the inside, which was very nice, and my H loved it.<p>Once again I had to put on the skids, which I should have done the moment it came up, and told him I just wouldn't be able to live there because of the awkwardness of living next-door to his parents if we were to divorce.<p>On the one hand, it was encouraging to me that HE was so gung-ho about that house because it revealed how committed HE was--he would never want an ex-W living next door to his parents--but since he still wasn't doing the extraordinary precautions and dealing with the A issues, I just couldn't cross that line into assuming we'd remain together.<p>He didn't really react or address my concerns. Now he's still looking at houses in town and getting more aggressive about calling realtors and getting our house listed, so once again I felt obligated by some of the things he was saying to let him know exactly where my mind was before he got too far in the expectations department. I told him I had no problem moving, but it would have to be a situation where our house payment wasn't any higher because it would be hard enough to pay this house payment as a single mom.<p>Once again, he didn't take the opportunity to discuss HOW we could address the marital issues so that I would feel more secure. It is notable, though, that in the past whenever I dared to naysay something he was gung-ho about, he'd lay into me about how not in the team I was and how I always crap all over every idea he has, so it must really bug him for me to thwart him the way I've been doing, yet instead of blowing up like he used to, he's just changed direction.<p>So far, those have been the times I feel pushed against the wall and forced to speak out about the status of the M, and so far, he has chosen not to take the opening to discuss the matter in more depth. I think he just thinks that eventually I'll be "normal" again. I think he still doesn't get it that it will take more than time even though I've told him point blank several times that I need HIM to process the A with me in order to get beyond it. I've made it crystal clear that I am "stuck" and will remain so without his active participation.<p>I've even told him that I was more committed on D-day and all that's happened since then is my level of commitment has decreased in response to his continued deception and avoidance of the dealing with all the issues. His response: "But I'm trying." And I told him that yes, I've noticed the improvement in how he treats me, etc., but that will not make the need to deal with the A issues go away, that it won't go away until we deal with it and do all the hard work.<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

therin lies the problem, conqueror. if they never address the issue-what then. earlier i got pushed a little about having the feelings my marriage was over and doomed. i dont feel that way-im just being realistic. if he doesnt try to heal himself, i cant do it for him. and if they dont think they did anything wrong-like that train wreck of a thread i read last night-you cant just stay and pretend everything is ok.<p>a little background on my personal history. my ex-husband had a breakdown and left me and infant son penniless to struggle when he was hospitalized. we went through hell. when he was finally released from psych unit with a bag of medications he refused to continue therapy. i gave him 18 months to decide therapy or me. needless to say we divorced. i left with a 16 month old son and 26.00 in my pocket. we lived on cherios and rice and chicken 1-2 times a month if we were lucky. in a very short period of time we were fine. i got us a 2 bedroom house and a great life.<p>so you see when i say i have the strength to do this and want to protect myself financially-i have reasons. i am being realistic-not doomsday. i hope the others get that. i want my husband to do what he needs for him, not me. he has to decide to help himself. i am and will continue to support him because i love him. i just cant do it for him.<p>oh yeah-pepper, im still waiting.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>he believes everything is fine<hr></blockquote><p>Sweetie, if he believes everything is fine then it is definately time to open a different door...as in finding someway...without LB's...to communicate not only your feelings about the money, but also your feelings about how fragile you feel your current relationship really is.<p>I like the idea of counselling with Steve, and you can always start by yourself if he is reluctant. Many times the partner will join in after he sees some changes. Curiosity if nothing else. <p>While we didn't counsel with the Harleys, my partner was extremely reluctant to open a book, or seek counselling, discuss the A or the relationship...thought every thing was, or would be fine if we just spent some time together.<p>OK...being a major conflict avoider myself..sounded ok..but I was miserable...so I had to start communicating..but more subtly. <p>I continued in my plan A and no LB's, saw a counselour on my own and would bring up some issues we discussed..more as an information tool..not as a "you should, or how do you feel about that". If he had some opinions I would listen and comment.<p>Eventually, I did sit down and talk to him about my feelings...again, NOT to instruct or demand change..but to let him know what page I was on. At this point, he was more willing to "join the party" as plan A had ben pretty effective.<p>So, the point of this long ramble is to find a way to communicate with him.
T

Nikko*<p>What are your husband's strengths of character?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

pepper- all the strengths he had went out the window. he was the most trustworthy man i ever knew, protective and caring. the other strengths are some of the things that led to our downfall-had no temper,AVOIDED confrontation and conflict, and things like that. right now i cant list any strengths. how sad is that-we are together almost 10 years.

If you can't recognize any of his strengths ... where do you see this relationship going?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

pepper, that is the problem-he lost his integrity,dignity and honor when he chose to have the affair. he also lost this in my eyes when he used 12 yr old son as a weapon and pawn. i wanted to say our son-not to confuse anyone,he is husb. step son but has been in his life since he was 2 1/2. i consider him his parent as much as me. that is why what he tried to do was so hurtfull. i cant recognize any strengths because my husband hasnt really shown any. yes he had the courage to tell me-but in his own words he had the affair to hurt me in the worst way possible-how could he hurt me if i didnt know. he has not told anyone except one friend, this also is the friend that was his excuse for being out. hasnt shown one iota of remorse or empathy to me and is just going on his merry way getting all his needs met. i dont mean for this to sound angry-but this is what i am dealing with. he is avoiding everything. he left very early this morning-7 am- this is a man who could sleep to 2 pm. he told me that he wanted to get to the office early-he works sat. yet doesnt leave a note or anything. i wake up and he is gone. mind you he is never out of the house in under an hour-today he was.<p>im gonna try to think of strengths-i really am. i have been thinking about it since your post. i have no idea if hes being honest or not. sucks to be me sometimes.

I understand how you're feeling Nikko .... I remember standing in such a hole myself. It sux.<p>Do you think your WH feels it is safe for him to stand emotionally naked in front of you? What do you imagine the risks might be for you to stand emotionally naked before your spouse? What prevents you from opening up?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

i never realized how emotionally closed off he was. i know nothing of his childhood and his dad.(well i know how dad died-but not from husband, my father worked for the same company.) he has never spoken about past loves or girlfriends, growing up or anything. i just took all of this in stride and never realized what was really going on. he shows good emotions-love happiness joy and other as such, but any conflict emotions are purely bottled up. when we did the questionaires-he printed out en, and marital recovery aggreement-didnt think we needed the past history one.<p>so you see-i hold back because he isnt getting any professional help for this and im afraid to push him. im not afraid for the outcome for myself, im afraid for him. what if he truely doesnt know how to handle these emotions since childhood. im afraid of doing damage. i am gonna talk about the money thing-i know i can do that calmly. i also know we can come to an agreement. i think he will understand my pov. he gave me willinglu 1/2 the savings and has never asked for it back or even about it. guilt i guess. he also trusts me with money.<p>i did think of some strengths-<p>his smile is infectious
he makes you feel wonderfull to be around<p>sf is amazing-very giving lover.<p>i know i will come up with more.....give me time.<p>bye the way-im still waiting to hear how we are similar??<p>going to moms for easter-down the jersey shore-no i wont drink the water-may not be on till way late tonight.<p>have a wonderful easter pepper.

Well ... I am older than you ... probably about your mother's age (I'm guessing)... so we are not similar in that respect! LOL! I am a west coast resident .... so that ain't it either.<p>I am married to a man who had no quality role model as a father and husband. His dad was a drunk, and sometimes a mean drunk. His dad changed in the last five years of his life ... so that Mr. Pepper had time to establish a fairly good adult child relationship with his dad before he died. Mr. Pepper was vulnerable to an affair because he had no clue what a healthy working marriage looked like .... he was hurting.... and he self-medicated with an affair (AND with alcohol too). Mr. Pepper did not know how to talk to me. REALLY TALK TO ME And , on my end.... I developed pretty lousy listening skills when it came to listening to Mr. Pepper.... I filled in his gaps ... as if I could read his mind. (You do this too .... I can tell. You wrote that he gave you 1/2 the savings "Guilt I guess" .... HOW do you KNOW it wasn't because of "Love I guess" ????)<p>We have 2 adopted children. One has been challenging ... to say the very least!!! Our oldest is bipolar .... and our marriage relationship had a wedge because I was (in my mind) a FAR SUPERIOR parent .... and I undermined Mr. Pepper's role .... NOT on purpose ... but I was doing damage there, nonetheless. I wonder if you are in a similar position .... a position somewhere between their father and son relationship. If you're not sure if you've done this (with ONLY the best intentions, of course) you might want to ask your husband if he feels you have undermined his position as the head of the house .... the father-authority to the boys. Once you don't trust your H as a parent (and, it very much sounds like you don't have much trust there) ... it is easy to undermine their relationship. To "step between" them when they are trying to work things out ... and you don't like the way they are doing it. (I am soooo guilty of this in the past ... and I have worked soooo hard to change this about myself. I am a medical practitioner, a problem-solver at work ... and it feels "natural" for me to take over when I should just shut up and let them struggle and grow at their own speed!)<p>I am so proud of you for finding some qualities to admire about your husband!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ....... WoW! When they have fallen from grace .... with their affair ... we cannot remember why we still want to be married to them. I eventually made a part of my "affair journal" a gratitude and prayer section ... where I made only positive and grateful comments about Mr. Pepper ..... it kept me from wallowing in the muck 100% of the time.<p>You love Mr. N ...... what do you love about him? Keep that in mind.<p>Getting a man to risk intimacy involves letting go of some pride .... that was very difficult for me. I also can "take care of myself" ... like you. I am very independent .... self-sufficient .... and my old motto used to be:<p>A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle<p>What do you think about my old, discarded motto?<p>Have a blessed Easter.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

dear pepper- thanks for the reply. we are similar in ways. thats good-i can ask you things like what worked and such.<p>i also am adopted. my brother too. sorry to hear about your sons bipolar. i know that is very tough to deal with. hugs to you on that.<p>i know the money thing was definately out of guilt or fear. it was hours after finding out and he was scared. i never saw him scared before. i also drilled him for hours with questions and wouldnt let up. at the time i also asked about the money i had just made him call her in front of me and tell her it was over-lot of good that did me! before he called he stalled in calling-he was terrified of what i was gonna do-he has met my evil twin, ill explain later. so i told him either he make the phone call or i was going to work with him. he knew i would and this scared him-terrified him actually. i was in evil calm mode-not hysterical, so he knew i was in control. the thought of me showing up at his work mortified him. this was all before i read saa obviously, so i know i made alot of mistakes. anyway i know it was out of fear and guilt for spending money we didnt have on hotel rooms and gifts.<p>as far as undermining the relationship with son, i have always stayed out of it because i always though of him as sean's dad. when i noticed husband pulling away from son-years ago i tried to tell them to go to counseling. they would always try to make me the referee-i wont be that. they need to work it out on their own. i have always felt and said this. tried for counseling for years. it fell on deaf ears. the only time i intervened was when he threatened to throw son out. they were both using me at the time. son for protection because husband was using his only means at the time to get me-SON. i worked a 15 hour day and came home to my husband being a raving lunatic and telling me son had to go. didnt care where he went but he was no longer gonna live with us. this is a 12 year old. what i didnt know at the time was affair was full blown and i guess husband was looking for an easy out. i became the mother lion. i had no idea what was really going on.<p>on what son did-cause i know you are gonna ask-he back mouthed husband. son did not give husband respect that he felt he deserved-however husband was very disrespectfull with son for a long time. both were wrong and i got caught in the crossfire. <p>i will keep looking for qualities in husband to admire-and there are too many reasons to love him to list. i do love him.<p>as far as your motto-i dont neccesarily think a woman needs a man just for the sake of having a man-she needs a partner and a loving stable relationship.<p>bye the way-i have a fish that has a bicycle. my sons fishtank has a mini bike in it.<p>god bless and hope your easter went well.

bump for pepper

Nikko, I would take the desire to fix the house as positive. He knew you wanted that, and now he is trying to give you want you wanted. He may not know your wants have changed. <p>Also, regardless of outcome - if you put that $ into the house, you'll get some of it back if the worst happens and you have to sell the house. So in a way you ARE squirreling it away by putting it into home improvements.<p>And I wouldn't worry so much about his current response to you - it sounds like he would still be in the timeframe of withdrawal.<p>OTOH, 5-figure, you shouldn't need to put all of that in the house [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]